Monk

January 19, 2010

The white cable I have _IS_ one of those cables, but the problem with those is that they slip off, as they don't have long enough protuberance in the middle, etc.. the plug on the Atari end is wrong, you see. It works, but it slips off and it doesn't hold in place..

And then it looses its grounding and the shielding is gone. You need a matching plug correctly attached to the cable.

Everything is 100% clear now.

No, it isn't. Everything is still very interferenced and annoying. With the coaxial cable and the RCA adapters for it.

- Monk

January 19, 2010

[quote name='Thomas Jentzsch' date='Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:47 AM' timestamp='1263883642'

You have to get a good, shielded(!) and fitting RF cable, that's all.

Yeaah.. that would be logical, wouldn't it?

I got a 18 EUR cable which includes a COAXIAL cable with RCA plug adapters for the television on the other end and another for the Atari on the other end.

IT DOESN'T HELP! Well, it helps a LITTLE bit, but it doesn't remove the interference OR even diminish it to a tolerable level. I can get it to almost as small as I did previously (though not quite) by holding the cable in my hand. But I can't play games that way!

Sigh. I just wish there were a simple solution that would fix it all, but there isn't.. I could of course try buying some very new RF cable, but they don't sell those with RCA plugs anymore, so I don't know what to do.. there aren't converters probably for converting RF->RCA.

- Monk

January 19, 2010

[quote name='Thomas Jentzsch' date='Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:16 AM' timestamp='1263856572' )

But I agree that those cables are thiner than other coaxial cables found in VCRs.

Try to get one of those. I am pretty sure your problems will go away.

The white cable I have _IS_ one of those cables, but the problem with those is that they slip off, as they don't have long enough protuberance in the middle, etc.. the plug on the Atari end is wrong, you see. It works, but it slips off and it doesn't hold in place..

And as I said, even holding it in place is not enough, you have to have your hand involved in odd positions for it to work, and you can never know what kind of position it has to be until you experiment a long time and suddenly by accident get it right.. then you freeze and the pic stays clear, but if you move just a little bit, everything goes back to the interference city again..

- Monk

January 19, 2010

Try wrapping it around your ankle.

Yes, I was thinking something like that, more like my wrists or my neck - but first of all the cable moves too much that way (slips off), or even with the duct tape, it's not enough for me to just TOUCH the cable, it has to be touched in a CERTAIN, very -specific- way with the hand..

So I better just look into some other cables and try to figure this out somehow. Stupid Atari designers, making their consoles demand a weird usage of hand from the user!

- Monk

January 19, 2010

What kind of cable have you been using until now? Don't tell me it isn't meant for TV signals.

I looked back at the picture of the RF cable you posted. This really doesn't look like a good coaxial cable should look like. The cable is much too thin to have a good shielding.

Check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable

I checked that, but that didn't show very compatible-looking plugs about it.

If I buy some coaxial cable, how can I get compatible plugs so it fits both into the Atari and into the Television? (I think our plugs here in europe are different than the american ones)

The picture of the RF cable Philsan posted is the kind that actually has long enough plug that it STAYS in a computer/console. The shielded, white cables usually don't stay because their plug is not long enough. I mean, they are compatible with C64 and so, but with Atari it slips off and so I rather use those black cables that can be made sure they will stay..

But all this testing puts all of this into a new light - so if I can figure out which kind of cable to buy, I would go buying new cable today so I could test this.

This could explain a lot; I mean, in USA I think it's very common to have those kind of weird-lookin' coaxial cables connected between the Atari and the TV .. but here, I don't think it's that common a solution. (your TV's have such odd plugs in the back)

I do have some old coaxial cable that I could perhaps try.. the only problem is, it's like 12 meters long or so - well not sure, I only know it's so frigging long that it's a pain to try to untangle and put to use, but I definite want to try it..

Thank you for all your input, this all gives new perspectives and new hope to this..

- Monk

January 19, 2010

Completely understandable. Like I said above, the shielding needs grounding. When the cable slips "a bit off", the shielding of the cable looses connection with the grounding. Which means the shielding is much weaker.

I don't know what grounding is. But it isn't enough that I keep it in place, I have noticed (I just did some more testing).

I have to hold it with my hand in a very specific way (and I don't know how, I just toy around until I find it, and sometimes it's a really awckward hand position) - just holding it tight in place doesn't remove the interference or even diminish it. I have to push a bit to the right, and then lift the cable and the cable kinda perhaps has to be in a loop under my hand and my hand has to be lifted off the table a bit and .. argh. It's very difficult to determine how to do it properly, and I can't ever get as good pic quality with duct tape - I need my hand (uh, don't think anything pervertic now (: )

How does the hand improve the shielding?

Probably that cable has no adequate shielding or the shielding is broken internally.

Yes, the black cable is not shielded, it's an old cable. Or at least it's not shielded by any modern standards. But it does produce such a clear and interference-free picture from the Commodore 64..

The solution is not weird at all. Bad shielding = high interference, good shielding = low interference.

Of course, but I was referring to the knotting. I don't know if it's the knotting after all, perhaps it's more the hand. Though I couldn't get a 'best possible so far' picture without knotting the cable, but this might be just a coincidence.

- Monk

January 19, 2010

Monk, you are asking me to test my consoles with the white coaxial cable used to connect TV's to antenna wall plug or VCRs, right?

I have many of them so tomorrow I will do it using my 2600 jr. (Darth Vader and 4-switch don't have a plug).

Well, I only know it's called RF cable. But any cable that fits between the Atari and TV and produces a picture and sound will do, I presume, hehe.

Yes, I know those older Ataris don't have a separate cable, but instead an inbuilt one. Perhaps you can somehow knot those wires a bit as well though - I don't have a Darth Vader model here right now so I can't test this yet.

Another weird phenomenon I noticed is that I have to HOLD the cable with my hand strictly in place for the interference to be at minimum (it almost completely disappears, which I never really expected) - if I move my hand away from the cable, the interference comes back and intensifies immediately.

It's a bit impractical solution; I mean, how am I supposed to play if my other hand has to be touching and pressing the cable the whole time? I really should get the cable I used in my mom's place and do some tests with that.. but it's gonna be a few days until I can do that.

I hope to get some video taken today about some of this new revalation so you can all see that it does clear the interference a lot..

Oh, and use Galaxian and Pitfall! as the control games - those two are the best ones to test it, I think.

- Monk

January 18, 2010

I see the same interference as you. I've checked your videos.

Moving the RF-cable does not generate new interference, It changes the intensity of it.

The interference dots goes from very noticeable to acceptable

depending on how I close to the cart I arrange the RF-cable.

I think that all carts radiate RF-interference to some level. Simple carts very little,

the Harmony cart seems to radiate some more.

For this radiation to be visible on screen then one or more links in the signal chain must

be picking it up. In my setup the RF-cable itself seems to be link that is most sensitive

to RF-radiation by far.

Holy F*ck!

You are actually right - there's a considerable difference whether the cable is very tangled or very clear!

Though, in most illogical way, I think;

I have this white, shielded cable. I entangled it very well to see if it would produce more interference. I got to a point where the interference practically DISAPPEARED! I actually said 'holy f*ck' out loud out of astonishment!

I am now too tired to take pics or video, but I hope to conduct more tests tomorrow and then show the results for you all.

The trouble with the white cable is that it's meant for VCR's and such, and thus doesn't have the computer-and-console-like LONG plug in the other end, so it doesn't stay very well in the Atari, and it slips a bit off, which causes the interference to come back and intensify. But if I hold it in place with my hand, I can practically see NO interference!

The WEIRD part is, that if I try the same with an old, black RF cable, the interference INTENSIFIES into something TOTALLY AWFULLY HORRIBLE ALL OVER THE SCREEN SO POWERFULLY I NEVER SAW IT LIKE THAT BEFORE!

So, with shielded cable, knotted as heck seems to somehow intensify and clear the signal;

With an unshielded cable knotting it seems to just intensify the interference and make the signal worse!

What a weird problem, what a weird solution.. I guess I have to somehow use duct tape or something with that white RF cable to keep it in place, hehe..

In any case, this brings new hope, thanks, mate, mr. Zagon!

Philsan, please try this also - try with different cables, knotting them and unknotting them - I also separated very strictly the power cable from the RF cable so there's no chance of them being entangled together. - and then try to hold a shielded cable in place after you have knotted it nicely.. heh.. weird, but it seems to work. Now I only have to hire someone to hold it in place or come up with some kind of macgyver-solution to it (-8

Thanks a bunch again, mr. Zagon, this is actually very exciting!

Hope to give more news the next day..

- Monk

January 18, 2010

Monk, we were talking about logic but now I really don't see any logic!

Your 2600 jr. outputs a beautiful image in your mom's house but, if it's an outside interference problem, why her Darth Vader has the same problem?

Exactly!

I don't have ANY idea anymore.. I am totally lost. My brain and me cannot together come up with ONE SINGLE PLAUSIBLE THEORY of how, why, and what causes it and .. agh. It's right now in the category of 'unsolved mysteries', perhaps 'unsolvable mysteries'..

I have never encountered anything like this before in my life; usually there has been SOME logic to any, even the most weird problem (I do have some similar though which I still haven't found an answer to, though - but they are not that serious so it doesn't matter) ..

This is just .. I can't answer those questions anymore. Not even theoretically, it doesn't make ANY friggin' sense whatsoever, no matter what perspective you look at it from!

In my place the Atari 2600jr PAL produces again very powerful interference, that is heavily disturbing when playing a game. In my mom's place, I could very easily forget that there ever were any disturbance when playing any game.. I should test with Galaxians though, I think that's one of those games (or was it Galaga? I get those mixed up) that shows so much interference where should be just plain black, that it'd be most easy to see the interference.

A funny observation about the interference in that Galaxian/Galaga game; the interference actually obeys the pattern of the enemies! I mean, it's hard to explain, but if there is four rows of enemies, it displays four rows of interference, until I shoot the LAST enemy on that row - then it disappears from that row, but not before I shoot every single one of them (I mean, shooting just one or two doesn't affect at all - and it's still there in that row until I shoot every single enemy)

This repeats in all rows.

I wish I could at least come up with a THEORY of how this interference-phenomenon/anomaly could be created, what could be causing it, and how to test it if it could be removed somehow. My only hope now is just to keep testing with different Ataries, if it means buying one new Atari every month..

- Monk

January 18, 2010

Here is the video, I got it uploaded now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVaNDX3EHM

You can clearly see how the interference anomaly is stronger with the Darth Vader model than my Atari 2600 jr PAL. In my apartment, however, the interference is equally strong with my Atari 2600 jr PAL.

(and even a bit worse with the NTSC version, I think)

I don't know how to explain this, I don't know how to try to fix it - I would greatly appreciate good explanations.

- Monk

January 18, 2010

I have now tried a ferrite bead on the RF-cable too. It made no visible difference to me.

However, I have succeded in reducing the interference to a completely acceptable level.

Oh, this reminds me - I also tried that aluminium foil thing, but it made absolutely no difference whatsoever.

- Monk

January 18, 2010

Monk, Philsan: Do your interference vary at all with the arrangement of your RF-cables?

No.

I think the interference YOU are talking about, is just the regular RF interference, which is acceptable.

Our interference, however, is something compeltely different, and much more annoying, and no cable differences affect it.

Of course, I can try and test this theory a bit further, but I really do not think it will affect at all. Besides, how would the RF cable know what cartridge to cause interference to? Wouldn't the interfrence be just as bad with all Ataris then, and all cartridges too?

And in all locations.. I was trying to upload this video to youtube yesterday where I show the difference in that interference with the 2600jr and the DarthVader model but there's some fault and I can't seem to get upload done to youtube..

Anyway, here is the type of interference I get

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rbwxi7pElk

(this is from the NTSC Atari 2600jr, hence no colors or sound)

Is YOUR interference identical to this one, or something else?

- Monk

January 17, 2010

Since you are from Finland, I suppose you are using a European 2-prong PSU. Did you try plugging it into the wall outlet upside down from what you normally use? I don't know if a different polarity could cause the kind of interference that you are experiencing, but it might be something that was different between the test at your place and your mom's, so it might be worth a try.

Hi again.

I actually did this today, and the results were nil. I mean, it didn't affect at all. I did it with both the PAL and the NTSC Atari. I did notice, that the NTSC seems to suffer even MORE from the interference than the PAL Atari.. none of this makes any sense, but I am starting to expect nothing with this to make sense anymore. I don't think we can ever get to the bottom of this.. it's just gonna remain one of those mysteries that are the curse of my life, I suppose. I just hope Philsan finds some kind of solution though.. would hate someone else to also have the same curse.

- Monk

January 17, 2010

Since you are from Finland, I suppose you are using a European 2-prong PSU. Did you try plugging it into the wall outlet upside down from what you normally use? I don't know if a different polarity could cause the kind of interference that you are experiencing, but it might be something that was different between the test at your place and your mom's, so it might be worth a try.

I am not FROM Finland, I just LIVE in Finland right now.

I thought about that. BUT, why would that exact same polarity cause lots of interference with the Darth Vader model, and almost nil with MY Atari 2600jr?

Besides, I also used a NTSC PSU for the NTSC Atari 2600jr, and the interference was still there. I was thinking myself about the PSU somehow being the fault too.. but I just can't figure out how. But, I am willing to try switching both the PSU's around to see if it has any effect.

I am also thinking of trying to purchase more PSU's and try with at least one more different one, or switching the PSU's with my mom to see if that has effect.. it's a really confusing, weird problem.

Thanks anyways for your input - it's always encouraging to at least have someone else pondering about this too..

- Monk

January 16, 2010

Ok, now I am totally puzzled.

I cannot explain this with ANY logic, this just isn't possible - I must be slipped into the Twilight Zone..

I took my PAL Atari 2600jr to my mom's place, to test it there and also to test Harmony Cart with her Darth Vader-model.

The results are very puzzling, and I feel really dumb for not being able to figure it out.

Firstly, the Darth Vader showed lots of interference. Nothing new or unexpected there.

Secondly, MY Atari showed so very very little amount of interference that it was barely noticeable, and heckuva lot less than the Darth Vader model, which showed at least as much interference than MY Atari shows at home, where I live.

Now, I used the same PSU, but of course the RF cable was different.

If the interference that MY Atari showed in my mom's place was always as small as it was there, I probably wouldn't really even paid any attention to it, EVER.

I shot some video, but somehow the camera seems to actually exaggarate the interference a bit in this case - I can't explain it. I mean, if it is the Harmony Cart, the both Ataris would have shown the same amount of interference, right? If it's the Atari, it should show the same interference no matter WHERE it is plugged in! If it's the TV, it would also show the interference with BOTH Atari's exactly the same. same reason why it can't be the PSU or the RF cable or any damn thing..

It can't even be the airport vicinity because then the Darth Vader Atari wouldn't have shown any interference!

I mean - WHAT THE F???

I cannot explain this, I am giving up .. I might put the videos in youtube at some point in time, but remember that the camera exaggarates the smaller interference, so it looks almost as big, although it was barely noticeable and not at all disturbing (also the pic quality was just great, when normally the interference makes it kinda awful).

What a weird phenomenon - three different Ataris, two different locations, two different Harmony Carts, two different PSU's, four different televisions, and the interference is the same EXCEPT when my Atari is moved to my mom's place (where the other Atari still shows awfully bad interference)..

Aargh, this sounds like some kind of weird fuzzy logic phenomenon or perhaps I am just too sleepy to try to figure this out.. if anyone can, please explain this /-:>

- Monk

January 12, 2010

Okay, I got the new Harmony Cart!

The interference is still there, just as it was before.

Except.. I am not sure about this, but it seems that the picture quality would be a little bit better with the new one (the menu text being much easier to read, and the colors being more vivid).

Also, Pitfall II:Lost Caverns now works! (I didn't test it much but it loaded without any garbled mess like the first cart)

I have been making a list of games that don't work with the first cart (like Burger Time and some others), which I hope to test with the new one, and I am sure they will work with the new one.

I am not very disappointed, as I kind of knew the interference would still be there. So far I tested this only with the two Atari 2600jr's that I have; the PAL one and the NTSC one, and as far as the interference itself goes, nothing has changed.

So it wasn't just one individual buggy cart, as some here suggested.. as I knew it couldn't be, because a buggy cart couldn't cause OTHER carts to have interference, hehe. My guess is that all these Ataris are somehow 'faulty' or badly shielded, or there's something here in Europe that creates that interference that isn't a factor in USA, or then some mystery explanation which I never even thought of.

I don't know if Harmony Cart could've been made in such a way that the interference wouldn't be there (after all, it's in the 32-in-1 too), but especially without experiencing it first hand I understand it would've been pretty difficult. But in any case, as many people don't even seem to have this effect, it can't really be Harmony Cart's fault in my opinion.

Thank you again, mr. Batari, this new cart is great - finally I can again play Pitfall II - and I can almost swear the picture quality seems just a little bit better than the other cart.. if I ever get that NTSC-(supporting)-television, I'm not even gonna let that interference bother me anymore.. it's more important that the games work and play well anyway.

In day or two I might have the opportunity to test the Harmony Cart in an apartment which is much further from any airport, and also which has a Dart Vader model in it. If I remember correctly, also that one had the interference with the 32-in-1, so I am pretty sure it will still have it with Harmony Cart .. would be neat to have some kind of access to lots and lots of Atari machines to be able to test it with so many of them that we could definitely be sure it's not Atari's fault (but I guess it HAS to be either the Atari or the Harmony Cart, and it can't really be the Harmony CArt, because it works with other people without creating this phenomenon)

Thank you for your patience, I hope to continue informing you guys of the results when I have the opportunity to conduct the final tests.

Sincerely,

- Monk

p.s. Mr. Batari - please understand that I am still very excited about this Harmony Cart, especially the new one since Pitfall II works etc. I am very grateful for your honesty, your efforts, your very hard work - and also I would like to take this opportunity to thank mr. Walton, mr. Anthony, mr. Delicon, mr. Jentzsch, mr. Payson, mr. Strum and mr. Yarusso! Thank you all, this is a great product and I really love using it!

January 12, 2010

Probably the best course of action is to wait for Monk to get the second Harmony. If it fixes the problem, I will replace yours and get both carts back to identify the problem. If it does not fix the problem, then yes, a 32-in-1 cart would probably help.

Yeps, perhaps I could receive it today or later this week.. I'll probably know in five hours or six perhaps.

If I am still awake and it comes today, I plan to test it immediately with both Ataris I have and then come here to report the findings.

Thanks again for sending me the other one btw! I am very willing to send you back the other Harmony Cart and my 32-in-1 too if you wish.. I just like to complete all possible tests first with the other cart (whenever it arrives).

- Monk

January 12, 2010

I have 32 in 1 cart and there is no interference like that one you describe here. Just an ordinary analogue goodness with some typical "composite" bleeding. To be honest, I don't get why people mod their consoles since the composite is hardly any better than well tuned RF... at least on my PAL Junior '91 model I have absolutely no complaints about its antenna signal.

This is -=* EXACTLY *=- the situation with many original carts that I have. The pic quality is just PERFECT to my eye, and no disturbing interference can be seen. Only the regular, normal RF one that I like.

- Monk

January 12, 2010

I don't think this interference is related to Harmony. Something is wrong with your Atari or TV cable.

Of course it's related to Harmony. Original carts do _NOT_ have this problem, Harmony Cart does.

If it was a TV cable, are you saying the cable has a sophisticated A.I. and only produces interference to Harmony Cart, 32-in-1 and some others in a lesser extent because it LIKES original carts better? (-8

(I said this is quite an explanation-killer.. - multiple carts having that phenomenon, multiple Ataris having it, and yet some original carts being completely FREE of it)

- Monk

January 12, 2010

Monk, I don't think all my three different consoles (a VCS bought in Switzerland, a 2600 and a new 2600 jr. bought in Italy) are faulty.

But the fact that no one has noticed the PAL50 firmware bug (apart me and zagon) and the fact that I am the only one to have found that Gunfight doesn't work (because the game is protected) lets me agree with you on the fact that definitely more testing is needed before being sure of any theory.

Btw, why couldn't all of your Ataris be faulty? Because the Swiss people make things so accurately? (-8

I haven't noticed that bug because I really haven't checked.. doesn't seem worthwhile thing to check considering all the other problems which seem more important - and related to the hassle to do that.. the menu system just works flawlessly to me in PAL60 and NTSC anyway (I really haven't noticed much difference between those BIOS or firmware versions in practical everyday usage anyway)

- Monk

January 12, 2010

Monk, I don't think all my three different consoles (a VCS bought in Switzerland, a 2600 and a new 2600 jr. bought in Italy) are faulty.

So *in this moment* it is logic to think that our two Harmony carts are faulty.

No, it's not. A faulty harmony cart again wouldn't explain the same exact interference in the 32-in-1 (which was there long before I even heard of Harmony Carts).. quite a feat from a non-existent Harmony Cart to perform, eh?

- Monk

January 10, 2010

Heh, I meant that HOW does logic dictate that, actually - I mean what kind of logical reasoning..

If exchanging all parts except for the cart itself doesn't change the problem, the cart has to be the problem.

Oh. THAT kind of logic. I don't think it is as simple as that, because it still occurs when you CHANGE the cart (to 32-in-1 for example).

Yes, it still could be the hardware, but since the problem is very rare, the chances the one person has the same faulty hardware twice are extremely unlikely.

How do you know it is a very rare problem? Two people have already had it with multiple Atari consoles. Who knows if there will be more reports in the future.. perhaps all those who got the Harmony Cart either don't notice the interference, don't care about the interference (because they might think it's normal, always having had it?), or haven't yet tested the cart - or perhaps they are all just LUCKY, having Atari machines which do not react this way to Harmony Cart (and some other carts as well).

Well, I shouldn't even be here yet.. I should hold all my ponderings until I can do some more testing.

Personally, I think my Ataris and all Philsan's Ataris are just faulty somehow, and react that way to too complex (or not well enough shielded) cartridges. I am pretty sure Philsan's Ataris would react to the 32-in-1 cart exactly the same.

- Monk

January 10, 2010

What logic indicates that? Anything is still possible, you know. I guess we'll know more when I receive the other cart..

Mine. Maybe your's is different.

Heh, I meant that HOW does logic dictate that, actually - I mean what kind of logical reasoning.. I didn't mean there are different types of logics actually (women's logic isn't really logic at all)

I mean, I don't see any logical reason why the Atari individuals couldn't be somehow responsible for the interference - it does happen with many different cartridges, not only the Harmony Cart. The 32-in-1 and Kaboom! and I think even Circus Atari has it - and even Jungle Hunt and so on. How could Harmony Cart cause all this when the interference was there before the Harmony Cart ever came into the same building?

So, what kind of logic dictates that it still cannot be the Atari hardware, I would just be interested to hear, I am not saying it can't.. just wanting to keep all options open so far, unless some options are very clearly and obviously, logically and verifiably closed (in which case I'd appreciate an explanation as to why - and also some experiments that I could perhaps run to prove it)

Thanks.

- Monk

January 9, 2010

Then logic indicates that it is not your hardware.

What logic indicates that? Anything is still possible, you know. I guess we'll know more when I receive the other cart..

But you know, a buggy Harmony Cart wouldn't explain the same interference in 32-in-1 cartridge and Kaboom! original, for example. It's still there with those carts.. although not as bad with Kaboom! original as it is with Kaboom! Harmony Cart version.

- Monk

January 9, 2010

That 'cart complexity' theory is probably the best theory so far.

So far, as written by me and Thomas, the only proven theory is that it's an individual problem of our two carts.

I don't know how many carts Fred has sold (in particular in Europe) but *so far* you and I are the only persons with this problem.

It COULD be a problem in our Atari's too, you know. Though it's starting to be a bit unlikely.

How about THIS for explanation?

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7087/images/440982a-i2.0.jpg

(just joking actually, but something to humorously consider anyway (-: )

- Monk