Monk

What logic indicates that? Anything is still possible, you know. I guess we'll know more when I receive the other cart.. But you know, a buggy Harmony Cart wouldn't explain the same interference in 32-in-1 cartridge and Kaboom! original, for example. It's still there with those carts.. although not as bad with Kaboom! original as it is with Kaboom! Harmony Cart version. - Monk

So far, as written by me and Thomas, the only proven theory is that it's an individual problem of our two carts. I don't know how many carts Fred has sold (in particular in Europe) but *so far* you and I are the only persons with this problem. It COULD be a problem in our Atari's too, you know. Though it's starting to be a bit unlikely. How about THIS for explanation? http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7087/images/440982a-i2.0.jpg (just joking actually, but something to humorously consider anyway (-: ) - Monk

Yes, except for me I haven't had the chance to try with different PSU's, because I only have two; one for the NTSC Atari, one for the PAL Atari (and for obvious reasons, I am not gonna switch those).. But I have one more PSU at my disposal later on probably, so I can test that one as well. I am pretty sure it won't make any difference though.. because again.. how could the PSU determine that only some carts are effected, but some carts are not.. That 'cart complexity' theory is probably the best theory so far. - Monk

Since they use difference frequencies all over, they have different resonance frequencies. But haven't we got reports from NTSC consoles too? Yes, but, if I am not wrong, connected to a PAL TV (capable of displaying NTSC like many European TVs). Well, not exactly; my TV's can show Amiga's and Dreamcast's NTSC picture just fine. But Atari outputs some kind of different NTSC Signal (so perhaps those TV's that I have can mostly display only PAL60, and not 'true' NTSC with color and audio). Someone told me that Amiga doesn't output a 'genuine' NTSC signal (though why does Amiga's NTSC work just fine in an american NTSC monitor with colors and everything then? They wouldn't make american NTSC monitors PAL60 compatible, would they? Then they could make it as easily a PAL/NTSC monitor (which it wasn't)).. So perhaps an european-made Dreamcast also produces only PAL60, even if I put an NTSC game in it. (meaning only the Hz-rate is changed, but the colors are still in PAL system) So, the NTSC Atari has not really been tested with fully NTSC-compatible television yet (or perhaps I would need some special cable? I don't know yet, I can only theorize so far) - only my PAL/PAL60-televisions, which produce good picture quality but in grayscale only, and without sound. Otherwise you are correct. - Monk

You mean why my FOUR (4) specific TV's -would be- more sensitive to it (and soon to be tested a fifth one, perhaps later on a sixth one too) But otherwise, your explanation is very interesting, and that could of course be the case. Though I have now tested a bit more, and found a curious phenomenon; the NTSC Atari produces a bit more interference than the PAL one! At least the interference is slightly visible in Cosmic Ark original cart with the NTSC version (but not enough to bother at all), but with PAL you really have hard time finding it. Some original carts, however, produce this interference too, but it looks a bit different, and is less bothersome. For example KABOOM! does this with the NTSC Atari (haven't much tested with the PAL one because that one doesn't support paddles) .. It's an interesting phenomenon in any case, and there have been many good explanations here. Now, if we could devise some tests to figure the truth out once and for all.. - Monk

I could do that later on, I have really not much use for the 32-in-1, it doesn't have that many good games anyway. I could actually even send the whole cart to you, but I am not sure if I have your address or not - I think it might be on the envelope that you sent - could that be right? Well, I can look into it later on.. the post office isn't open until monday anyway in this country.. (I found out american post offices are open also in saturday! that's remarkable) I plan to keep you informed in any case.. - Monk

Yes, I have tried with four different televisions, and it has always been the same. (two panasonic, two philips) Again the explanation-killer; why would a television be sensitive to Harmony Cart but not sensitive to original carts.. - Monk

I only HAVE problem consoles.. I can't afford to send them all, hehe.. but I wasn't talking about finding out what's going on, just about perhaps the possibility of creating some unofficial hack versions of Harmony Carts which wouldn't have the interference. Though you may be right - it might be impossible to create such carts if the problem isn't found first. - Monk

This is a kind of thing I had in mind - perhaps mr. Batari could sell 'Interference-free' cartridges, just make a few of them (in a way that does not require redesigning it), and then sell to those who are bothered by the interference.. I had thought about also perhaps a silly idea but .. thinking that when I receive the second cartridge, and if things still remain the same with it, that if I would send them both back to mr. Batari, and pay of course all shipping back and forth, perhaps mr. Batari could send me some kind of interference-hack-version that wouldn't produce this anomaly to me, if I paid for his trouble and all - perhaps 20 or 30 bucks on top of what I have already paid so far? I would be perfectly willing to do all this, if you are, mr. Batari. But there's no rush of anything, I know how busy You must be and there are still other options to investigate and check out, but it was just an idea I was toying with in my head, and wanted to show it here for all to see.. what do you guys think, could this be somehow a viable thing? - Monk

I don't think we can rule that out at this point. Three carts is a very small amount, even if the two of my Atari's are added to it. But next week hopefully I can test it with Darth Vader model too. We would still need to test with NTSC VCS and NTSC Darth Vader, but I think either the individual carts do it OR the individual Ataris just happen to have this kind of 'weak shielding' or 'frequency match' or whatever is causing it. I will probably know more next week, but six Ataris could still be a coincidence.. I mean, how can we know what kind of percentage of Ataris have this problem, and what percentage is problem-free in this area? In any case, I think mr. Batari would be advised to include some kind of disclaimer or warning with the Harmony Cart or it's selling page (if there is one yet), or something - at least some kind of small mention that this -might- happen. Hopefully I can some day get an NTSC compatible television so I can test it with colors too, but I am pretty sure it'll still be there even with colors and sound. Btw, that frequency overlapping theory is excellent and makes a lot of sense! - Monk

Thank you for the elaborate explanation and the pictures etc. But that explanation, while probably the best one we have yet (except that 'loop' explanation that mr. Batari had, which was very good also), seems a bit flimsy. I mean, with Cosmic Ark, there's absolutely NO disturbing interference like that at all. I could buy your explanation if there was only some differences in how powerful the interference is, but it's more like ON/OFF-switch than any gradual difference. I mean, either it's 100% or it's 0%. 32-in-1 cart has 100%, as does Harmony Cart - but Pitfall! and Cosmic Ark has 0%. Can there really be this much difference in the strenght of the used chips, meaning that Cosmic Ark and Pitfall! would have SO WEAK chips to produce absolutely no interference whatsoever and yet show a perfect and beautiful picture? That is a good explanation, I admit - but something about it just doesn't sit right.. if I was an electronically minded person, this could probably be easily tested by me. Perhaps Philsan can test this grounding theory and correct the shielding and see if it has any effect? I mean, with a faulty Atari with incorrect/broken/faulty shielding, you'd think there would be at least _SOME_ interference in absolutely ALL cartridges.. wouldn't you? - Monk

I you really want to stess the cart, fill a single directory with several 100 games and then navigate back from the end of it. I've done that, but it's still too fast - no yin/yang-logo.. though it WAS a bit slower than usual for awhile towards the beginning from the end. To the other direction it's as fast as I can click (when changing pages, for example).. - Monk

Sounds like a very good theory, but how come some carts are still clear - how does the shielding problem in Atari determine that "Ah, he's playing an original cart, I am not gonna exist now"..? I mean, if this was in ALL carts, it would be so much easier to explain.. still, you may be right as perhaps some carts are just more SENSITIVE to this shielding problem. Here is a video of the NTSC Atari 2600jr that I got all the way from USA yesterday.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rbwxi7pElk As you see, I use Pitfall! as the 'control' game as it's so clear and easy-to-see in that one (in video, I mean - of course by naked eye it's very disturbing in most every game and also it produces much more fuzzy and unclear picture than the original carts that do not have the interference).. So it's not a PAL vs. NTSC Atari-problem - it's an 'individual Atari'-problem, I reckon. Btw, I don't know HOW to open that Atari.. I tried opening it once, but I couldn't get it opened, I didn't want to use too much force so nothing would break .. Besides, I wouldn't know what a 'shielding' looks like anyway.. I am not very electronically minded. Here are some pictures of the NTSC Atari 2600jr that travelled to me from America.

Two hundredth of one cent? Wow, that's very little amount (-8 Did you pay with Paypal? .02 is two cents $.02 is 2 cents .02 cents is $0.0002 like what ever dude. He's actually correct. Besides, I was kinda joking anyway.. humor, you know? But you did say ".02 cents", and NOT ".02 dollars" (which WOULD amount to two cents).. With your definition .. .02 dollars is exactly same as two dollars! (that follows logically from .02 cents being the SAME as two cents - so mathematically: 0.02 = 2 Which simply isn't true of course.) - Monk

Well, it could still be an external interference problem, but some carts are just more SENSITIVE to it than others, and the interference makes the Atari just react in exact same way in both of our cases. I mean, it could be that any general interference (cell phone network perhaps? I heard they are not everywhere in US like they are here), powerful enough, would cause the Atari to 'reflect' it's microchips onto the screen somehow, or something. I know how stupid this sounds but I am very stupid when it comes to electronics (: I hope to next week do those investigations, and bring more information on to the table again, so maybe with some patience we can eventually find out what the HECK exactly causes this problem. It's like some carts are sensitive to something the Atari produces or reacts to, and then the carts react by outputting that interference. Or perhaps it's the other way around; the ATARI is sensitive to certain carts (but why?), and as a result, produces some weird effect just when it's supposed to output the picture onto the screen, resulting in that interference.. I don't know, I have absolutely NO explanations, just theories, all of which sound very odd. - Monk

And in my case. There might be a solution to minimize the interference, sure. But so far we have both tried 'almost everything', and nothing has changed it _AT_ALL_. So perhaps it's becoming a bit interesting question - exactly WHAT would that solution be? Too bad about the redesign-non-feasibility - but how about creating just a few new carts with something done about that interference, that you could then sell for people who specifically have this problem? Then everyone would be happy. It is not a PAL console specific problem anymore, as the NTSC Atari I got, also has the interference with Harmony Cart. We don't usually use switchboxes here in europe - or at least here in Finland.. we have those RF cables that Philsan showed a picture of, and then with the older Atari's like the VCS and Darth Vader model, this kind of cable is permanently attached to the console itself, so using another cable is out of the question anyway for these. PAL consoles allow the channel 2-3 switch just as the NTSC ones. But with PAL televisions, you can tune the channel from the television yourself, so you can actually pinpoint the exact location of the picture. This is not a channel issue anyway, because how come some orginal carts produce NO interference... (that's always the thing that kills most explanations - SOME carts work just fine without any interference) It is not a cable issue. How would the cable know to make only SOME carts interfere like crazy, but leave some carts totally interference-free? (again, the killer-peculiarity about this.. some carts work just fine) - Monk

I can assure you, my cables have never been wrapped around the harmony cart. Yes. But I bought specifically very well shielded, expensive RF cables for this particular purpose. The effect; no change in interference. Well, to be exact, slight change in the NORMAL RF INTERFERENCE, but no effect in _THIS_ particular interference. Sure, but keep in mind, that you are testing with an Atari unit that didn't have any interference to begin with, and the interference you are talking about thus might not be THE SAME interference we are talking. Did it look exactly the same as my and Philsan's interference, or was it just the 'regular RF interference'? How about the interference in SOUND? (as you can hear in my videos) Personally, my diagnosis is, that as the interference still exists with also my NTSC Atari, some Atari units just HAVE it, some DON'T - and most of the Harmony Cart owners here seem to be just lucky that their Atari's do not have it. Would be interesting to exchange our Atari units for awhile and see what happens .. I mean, me sending you my NTSC Atari jr and you sending me yours.. (but it'd be too much trouble) So, I guess some Atari's are faulty in this way, and there's probably nothing that can be done about it. I guess I can live with that.. if only I could get hold of even one, even a PAL Atari that wouldn't have that interference, it would be of course easier to live with.. Now that NTSC problem bothers me so much though that I even dreamed of NTSC televisions which showed my NTSC Atari's picture with color and sound.. But that's probably a problem for another thread, so I won't bother you more of that here and now. Just a warning; DO NOT think you can get NTSC Atari working easily in europe, at least not in Finland! - Monk

Two hundredth of one cent? Wow, that's very little amount (-8 Did you pay with Paypal? .02 is two cents .02 DOLLARS is two cents. .02 CENTS is two hundreth of one cent. - Monk

One more thing I forgot to mention - it's really FAST in loading games. In some early youtube videos it looked like you have to wait for many seconds before any game loads - but in actual use it's so fast I actually never even see the yin/yang-logo (which is a bit sad, 'cos I like it..), except when I change the BIOS.. I wonder if the SD card size/speed has anything to do with it. I only have an old Kingston 1 GB card. But all in all it's very difficult to find anything to critisize about the Harmony Cart.. just a fantastic product bringing lots of great gameplaying and demowatching (and who knows what else) hours to many people! - Monk

I agree! The menu system and all the functionality of Harmony Cart has clearly been very very thoroughly and wisely planned and designed - there are so great features, which are both handy and cool, that it's mind-blowing. Totally great system, the user-friendliness-level is just amazingly high! I want to also extend my gratitude towards the good fellows who designed, planned, manufactured, constructed and sell the Harmony Cart. Oh, I want to also praise the manual - it's full of useful information and covers practically all possible problem areas and teaches about the neat feats in a very clear and precise manner. Just GREAT work, guys! - Monk

Two hundredth of one cent? Wow, that's very little amount (-8 Did you pay with Paypal? - Monk

Maybe he meant that he has the interferences the same way I had already the interferences with the 32-in-1 cartridge (and a few others)? Cosmic Ark and Pitfall! original cartridges absolutely have almost NO interference (or whatever it should be called), very clear and nice picture, great and wonderful picture quality. But Kaboom! and Circus Atari seem to have it... as well as Harmony Cart - but perhaps not as strong, it's hard to estimate without painstakingly testing them over and over again and notifying carefully all changes etc. Yes, it's kind of difficult to test whether the interference comes from the TV or not (-8 I actually tested turning the fridge off (unplugging it in fact) -- no effect on the interference. Either it's the airport, or it's some internal weirdness. I have bad luck for having it on BOTH my Atari 2600jr's.. You know, sometimes the interference looks almost like a motherboard in shape.. I mean, it looks like these microchips in neat rows in a larger scheme.. Oh and I noticed a weird thing; there's this odd interference with Circus Atari where if you move the paddle (when the screen is dark - I don't know what color it is 'cos there's no color in the NTSC right now), you can see the paddle position from the interference - it's like a meter or something.. heh. It's pretty neat in it's own way.. if you move the paddle, the interference moves to show where you moved it.. (hard to explain with only a few hours of sleep - woke up to the mailwoman bringing me the Atari (: ) Now, I hope to be able to test these things next week: 1) Darth Vader-Atari (far from airport) with Harmony Cart 2) The NTSC Atari 2600jr with a new (hopefully NTSC genuinely supporting) TeleVision 3) Harmony Cart within that system of NTSC Atari 2600jr and the new TeleVision 4) The NEW Harmony Cart with both the PAL 2600jr and NTSC 2600jr with the old and new TeleVision 5) PAL-Atari2600jr far from airport with Harmony Cart Then I think we might again have some more information.. - Monk

And also now NTSC consoles connected to PAL televisions that support the Amiga's and Dreamcast's NTSC-mode, which, I am told, might not be 'genuine' NTSC mode after all.. So the interference is still there with the NTSC Atari 2600jr. I wonder if it's mostly a jr problem or .. I can't really understand all this. It's almost as if it's totally illogical - in the way that "Whatever Atari Monk uses, let there be interference! (sounds of thunder)" I am starting to realize that my televisions might not support genuine NTSC, only PAL60.. So I must then purchase a new television, and somehow make sure it actually supports real, authentic NTSC and not just PAL60. Easier said than done here in this stupid country.. - Monk

I finally got my NTSC Atari 2600jr too, and here's what I found out. 1) The interference is STILL there (bugger!).. but on the other room it seems much less (hard to tell for reasons I hope to get into soon) 2) It doesn't work very well with PAL RF cable (I guess I have to get some other kind of RF cable to test it - there's no color and there's no sound, except some whirring noise - but the games work just fine generally speaking), so it's hard to determine these things. In the livingroom television the interference is clearly there, but the picture quality is at least relatively 'clear' (it's very fuzzy here in the other room, but it almost looks as if there's no - or almost no interference, but it's hard to tell under that fuzziness) 3) It supports paddles (yay, finally I got to play Kaboom! with real paddles! ahh, what a great joy it is and what control, compared to emulator+mouse - whooh.. very different experience! (though without sound and color the experience is a bit smaller) Could it be because in the livingroom I have the computer table set right next to a fridge? Or perhaps it IS that airport.. I don't know. I just wish Harmony Cart could've been produced similar way than the original carts.. then there wouldn't be interference. But if I ever get color and sound to this NTSC Atari 2600jr, I don't think I am gonna complain about the interference anymore anyway.. now I realize there are more important functionalities. It just kinda bugs me that it's always like this for me, almost as if I am cursed.. why everything that works just swell with other people, always gives me problems, gray hair, stress and headaches without any explanations WHY.. aargh. Anyways, this was just a small update until I get the other Harmony Cart and the NTSC RF cable from somewhere (I am not even sure that can be purchased in Finland).. I hope to give you more news as I get them myself. Now onwards towards the grocery store.. - Monk

Oh, thank you so much! I did send you a PM about this.. You are a kind and honest man, and I am very sorry for troubling you with all these problems. They are really more my problems than yours, I feel ashamed for even bringing them up. - Monk