Monk

Okay, I got the new Harmony Cart! The interference is still there, just as it was before. Except.. I am not sure about this, but it seems that the picture quality would be a little bit better with the new one (the menu text being much easier to read, and the colors being more vivid). Also, Pitfall II:Lost Caverns now works! (I didn't test it much but it loaded without any garbled mess like the first cart) I have been making a list of games that don't work with the first cart (like Burger Time and some others), which I hope to test with the new one, and I am sure they will work with the new one. I am not very disappointed, as I kind of knew the interference would still be there. So far I tested this only with the two Atari 2600jr's that I have; the PAL one and the NTSC one, and as far as the interference itself goes, nothing has changed. So it wasn't just one individual buggy cart, as some here suggested.. as I knew it couldn't be, because a buggy cart couldn't cause OTHER carts to have interference, hehe. My guess is that all these Ataris are somehow 'faulty' or badly shielded, or there's something here in Europe that creates that interference that isn't a factor in USA, or then some mystery explanation which I never even thought of. I don't know if Harmony Cart could've been made in such a way that the interference wouldn't be there (after all, it's in the 32-in-1 too), but especially without experiencing it first hand I understand it would've been pretty difficult. But in any case, as many people don't even seem to have this effect, it can't really be Harmony Cart's fault in my opinion. Thank you again, mr. Batari, this new cart is great - finally I can again play Pitfall II - and I can almost swear the picture quality seems just a little bit better than the other cart.. if I ever get that NTSC-(supporting)-television, I'm not even gonna let that interference bother me anymore.. it's more important that the games work and play well anyway. In day or two I might have the opportunity to test the Harmony Cart in an apartment which is much further from any airport, and also which has a Dart Vader model in it. If I remember correctly, also that one had the interference with the 32-in-1, so I am pretty sure it will still have it with Harmony Cart .. would be neat to have some kind of access to lots and lots of Atari machines to be able to test it with so many of them that we could definitely be sure it's not Atari's fault (but I guess it HAS to be either the Atari or the Harmony Cart, and it can't really be the Harmony CArt, because it works with other people without creating this phenomenon) Thank you for your patience, I hope to continue informing you guys of the results when I have the opportunity to conduct the final tests. Sincerely, - Monk p.s. Mr. Batari - please understand that I am still very excited about this Harmony Cart, especially the new one since Pitfall II works etc. I am very grateful for your honesty, your efforts, your very hard work - and also I would like to take this opportunity to thank mr. Walton, mr. Anthony, mr. Delicon, mr. Jentzsch, mr. Payson, mr. Strum and mr. Yarusso! Thank you all, this is a great product and I really love using it!

Yeps, perhaps I could receive it today or later this week.. I'll probably know in five hours or six perhaps. If I am still awake and it comes today, I plan to test it immediately with both Ataris I have and then come here to report the findings. Thanks again for sending me the other one btw! I am very willing to send you back the other Harmony Cart and my 32-in-1 too if you wish.. I just like to complete all possible tests first with the other cart (whenever it arrives). - Monk

This is -=* EXACTLY *=- the situation with many original carts that I have. The pic quality is just PERFECT to my eye, and no disturbing interference can be seen. Only the regular, normal RF one that I like. - Monk

Of course it's related to Harmony. Original carts do _NOT_ have this problem, Harmony Cart does. If it was a TV cable, are you saying the cable has a sophisticated A.I. and only produces interference to Harmony Cart, 32-in-1 and some others in a lesser extent because it LIKES original carts better? (-8 (I said this is quite an explanation-killer.. - multiple carts having that phenomenon, multiple Ataris having it, and yet some original carts being completely FREE of it) - Monk

Btw, why couldn't all of your Ataris be faulty? Because the Swiss people make things so accurately? (-8 I haven't noticed that bug because I really haven't checked.. doesn't seem worthwhile thing to check considering all the other problems which seem more important - and related to the hassle to do that.. the menu system just works flawlessly to me in PAL60 and NTSC anyway (I really haven't noticed much difference between those BIOS or firmware versions in practical everyday usage anyway) - Monk

No, it's not. A faulty harmony cart again wouldn't explain the same exact interference in the 32-in-1 (which was there long before I even heard of Harmony Carts).. quite a feat from a non-existent Harmony Cart to perform, eh? - Monk

If exchanging all parts except for the cart itself doesn't change the problem, the cart has to be the problem. Oh. THAT kind of logic. I don't think it is as simple as that, because it still occurs when you CHANGE the cart (to 32-in-1 for example). How do you know it is a very rare problem? Two people have already had it with multiple Atari consoles. Who knows if there will be more reports in the future.. perhaps all those who got the Harmony Cart either don't notice the interference, don't care about the interference (because they might think it's normal, always having had it?), or haven't yet tested the cart - or perhaps they are all just LUCKY, having Atari machines which do not react this way to Harmony Cart (and some other carts as well). Well, I shouldn't even be here yet.. I should hold all my ponderings until I can do some more testing. Personally, I think my Ataris and all Philsan's Ataris are just faulty somehow, and react that way to too complex (or not well enough shielded) cartridges. I am pretty sure Philsan's Ataris would react to the 32-in-1 cart exactly the same. - Monk

Mine. Maybe your's is different. Heh, I meant that HOW does logic dictate that, actually - I mean what kind of logical reasoning.. I didn't mean there are different types of logics actually (women's logic isn't really logic at all) I mean, I don't see any logical reason why the Atari individuals couldn't be somehow responsible for the interference - it does happen with many different cartridges, not only the Harmony Cart. The 32-in-1 and Kaboom! and I think even Circus Atari has it - and even Jungle Hunt and so on. How could Harmony Cart cause all this when the interference was there before the Harmony Cart ever came into the same building? So, what kind of logic dictates that it still cannot be the Atari hardware, I would just be interested to hear, I am not saying it can't.. just wanting to keep all options open so far, unless some options are very clearly and obviously, logically and verifiably closed (in which case I'd appreciate an explanation as to why - and also some experiments that I could perhaps run to prove it) Thanks. - Monk

What logic indicates that? Anything is still possible, you know. I guess we'll know more when I receive the other cart.. But you know, a buggy Harmony Cart wouldn't explain the same interference in 32-in-1 cartridge and Kaboom! original, for example. It's still there with those carts.. although not as bad with Kaboom! original as it is with Kaboom! Harmony Cart version. - Monk

So far, as written by me and Thomas, the only proven theory is that it's an individual problem of our two carts. I don't know how many carts Fred has sold (in particular in Europe) but *so far* you and I are the only persons with this problem. It COULD be a problem in our Atari's too, you know. Though it's starting to be a bit unlikely. How about THIS for explanation? http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7087/images/440982a-i2.0.jpg (just joking actually, but something to humorously consider anyway (-: ) - Monk

Yes, except for me I haven't had the chance to try with different PSU's, because I only have two; one for the NTSC Atari, one for the PAL Atari (and for obvious reasons, I am not gonna switch those).. But I have one more PSU at my disposal later on probably, so I can test that one as well. I am pretty sure it won't make any difference though.. because again.. how could the PSU determine that only some carts are effected, but some carts are not.. That 'cart complexity' theory is probably the best theory so far. - Monk

Since they use difference frequencies all over, they have different resonance frequencies. But haven't we got reports from NTSC consoles too? Yes, but, if I am not wrong, connected to a PAL TV (capable of displaying NTSC like many European TVs). Well, not exactly; my TV's can show Amiga's and Dreamcast's NTSC picture just fine. But Atari outputs some kind of different NTSC Signal (so perhaps those TV's that I have can mostly display only PAL60, and not 'true' NTSC with color and audio). Someone told me that Amiga doesn't output a 'genuine' NTSC signal (though why does Amiga's NTSC work just fine in an american NTSC monitor with colors and everything then? They wouldn't make american NTSC monitors PAL60 compatible, would they? Then they could make it as easily a PAL/NTSC monitor (which it wasn't)).. So perhaps an european-made Dreamcast also produces only PAL60, even if I put an NTSC game in it. (meaning only the Hz-rate is changed, but the colors are still in PAL system) So, the NTSC Atari has not really been tested with fully NTSC-compatible television yet (or perhaps I would need some special cable? I don't know yet, I can only theorize so far) - only my PAL/PAL60-televisions, which produce good picture quality but in grayscale only, and without sound. Otherwise you are correct. - Monk

You mean why my FOUR (4) specific TV's -would be- more sensitive to it (and soon to be tested a fifth one, perhaps later on a sixth one too) But otherwise, your explanation is very interesting, and that could of course be the case. Though I have now tested a bit more, and found a curious phenomenon; the NTSC Atari produces a bit more interference than the PAL one! At least the interference is slightly visible in Cosmic Ark original cart with the NTSC version (but not enough to bother at all), but with PAL you really have hard time finding it. Some original carts, however, produce this interference too, but it looks a bit different, and is less bothersome. For example KABOOM! does this with the NTSC Atari (haven't much tested with the PAL one because that one doesn't support paddles) .. It's an interesting phenomenon in any case, and there have been many good explanations here. Now, if we could devise some tests to figure the truth out once and for all.. - Monk

I could do that later on, I have really not much use for the 32-in-1, it doesn't have that many good games anyway. I could actually even send the whole cart to you, but I am not sure if I have your address or not - I think it might be on the envelope that you sent - could that be right? Well, I can look into it later on.. the post office isn't open until monday anyway in this country.. (I found out american post offices are open also in saturday! that's remarkable) I plan to keep you informed in any case.. - Monk

Yes, I have tried with four different televisions, and it has always been the same. (two panasonic, two philips) Again the explanation-killer; why would a television be sensitive to Harmony Cart but not sensitive to original carts.. - Monk

I only HAVE problem consoles.. I can't afford to send them all, hehe.. but I wasn't talking about finding out what's going on, just about perhaps the possibility of creating some unofficial hack versions of Harmony Carts which wouldn't have the interference. Though you may be right - it might be impossible to create such carts if the problem isn't found first. - Monk

This is a kind of thing I had in mind - perhaps mr. Batari could sell 'Interference-free' cartridges, just make a few of them (in a way that does not require redesigning it), and then sell to those who are bothered by the interference.. I had thought about also perhaps a silly idea but .. thinking that when I receive the second cartridge, and if things still remain the same with it, that if I would send them both back to mr. Batari, and pay of course all shipping back and forth, perhaps mr. Batari could send me some kind of interference-hack-version that wouldn't produce this anomaly to me, if I paid for his trouble and all - perhaps 20 or 30 bucks on top of what I have already paid so far? I would be perfectly willing to do all this, if you are, mr. Batari. But there's no rush of anything, I know how busy You must be and there are still other options to investigate and check out, but it was just an idea I was toying with in my head, and wanted to show it here for all to see.. what do you guys think, could this be somehow a viable thing? - Monk

I don't think we can rule that out at this point. Three carts is a very small amount, even if the two of my Atari's are added to it. But next week hopefully I can test it with Darth Vader model too. We would still need to test with NTSC VCS and NTSC Darth Vader, but I think either the individual carts do it OR the individual Ataris just happen to have this kind of 'weak shielding' or 'frequency match' or whatever is causing it. I will probably know more next week, but six Ataris could still be a coincidence.. I mean, how can we know what kind of percentage of Ataris have this problem, and what percentage is problem-free in this area? In any case, I think mr. Batari would be advised to include some kind of disclaimer or warning with the Harmony Cart or it's selling page (if there is one yet), or something - at least some kind of small mention that this -might- happen. Hopefully I can some day get an NTSC compatible television so I can test it with colors too, but I am pretty sure it'll still be there even with colors and sound. Btw, that frequency overlapping theory is excellent and makes a lot of sense! - Monk

Thank you for the elaborate explanation and the pictures etc. But that explanation, while probably the best one we have yet (except that 'loop' explanation that mr. Batari had, which was very good also), seems a bit flimsy. I mean, with Cosmic Ark, there's absolutely NO disturbing interference like that at all. I could buy your explanation if there was only some differences in how powerful the interference is, but it's more like ON/OFF-switch than any gradual difference. I mean, either it's 100% or it's 0%. 32-in-1 cart has 100%, as does Harmony Cart - but Pitfall! and Cosmic Ark has 0%. Can there really be this much difference in the strenght of the used chips, meaning that Cosmic Ark and Pitfall! would have SO WEAK chips to produce absolutely no interference whatsoever and yet show a perfect and beautiful picture? That is a good explanation, I admit - but something about it just doesn't sit right.. if I was an electronically minded person, this could probably be easily tested by me. Perhaps Philsan can test this grounding theory and correct the shielding and see if it has any effect? I mean, with a faulty Atari with incorrect/broken/faulty shielding, you'd think there would be at least _SOME_ interference in absolutely ALL cartridges.. wouldn't you? - Monk

I you really want to stess the cart, fill a single directory with several 100 games and then navigate back from the end of it. I've done that, but it's still too fast - no yin/yang-logo.. though it WAS a bit slower than usual for awhile towards the beginning from the end. To the other direction it's as fast as I can click (when changing pages, for example).. - Monk

Sounds like a very good theory, but how come some carts are still clear - how does the shielding problem in Atari determine that "Ah, he's playing an original cart, I am not gonna exist now"..? I mean, if this was in ALL carts, it would be so much easier to explain.. still, you may be right as perhaps some carts are just more SENSITIVE to this shielding problem. Here is a video of the NTSC Atari 2600jr that I got all the way from USA yesterday.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rbwxi7pElk As you see, I use Pitfall! as the 'control' game as it's so clear and easy-to-see in that one (in video, I mean - of course by naked eye it's very disturbing in most every game and also it produces much more fuzzy and unclear picture than the original carts that do not have the interference).. So it's not a PAL vs. NTSC Atari-problem - it's an 'individual Atari'-problem, I reckon. Btw, I don't know HOW to open that Atari.. I tried opening it once, but I couldn't get it opened, I didn't want to use too much force so nothing would break .. Besides, I wouldn't know what a 'shielding' looks like anyway.. I am not very electronically minded. Here are some pictures of the NTSC Atari 2600jr that travelled to me from America.

Two hundredth of one cent? Wow, that's very little amount (-8 Did you pay with Paypal? .02 is two cents $.02 is 2 cents .02 cents is $0.0002 like what ever dude. He's actually correct. Besides, I was kinda joking anyway.. humor, you know? But you did say ".02 cents", and NOT ".02 dollars" (which WOULD amount to two cents).. With your definition .. .02 dollars is exactly same as two dollars! (that follows logically from .02 cents being the SAME as two cents - so mathematically: 0.02 = 2 Which simply isn't true of course.) - Monk

Well, it could still be an external interference problem, but some carts are just more SENSITIVE to it than others, and the interference makes the Atari just react in exact same way in both of our cases. I mean, it could be that any general interference (cell phone network perhaps? I heard they are not everywhere in US like they are here), powerful enough, would cause the Atari to 'reflect' it's microchips onto the screen somehow, or something. I know how stupid this sounds but I am very stupid when it comes to electronics (: I hope to next week do those investigations, and bring more information on to the table again, so maybe with some patience we can eventually find out what the HECK exactly causes this problem. It's like some carts are sensitive to something the Atari produces or reacts to, and then the carts react by outputting that interference. Or perhaps it's the other way around; the ATARI is sensitive to certain carts (but why?), and as a result, produces some weird effect just when it's supposed to output the picture onto the screen, resulting in that interference.. I don't know, I have absolutely NO explanations, just theories, all of which sound very odd. - Monk

And in my case. There might be a solution to minimize the interference, sure. But so far we have both tried 'almost everything', and nothing has changed it _AT_ALL_. So perhaps it's becoming a bit interesting question - exactly WHAT would that solution be? Too bad about the redesign-non-feasibility - but how about creating just a few new carts with something done about that interference, that you could then sell for people who specifically have this problem? Then everyone would be happy. It is not a PAL console specific problem anymore, as the NTSC Atari I got, also has the interference with Harmony Cart. We don't usually use switchboxes here in europe - or at least here in Finland.. we have those RF cables that Philsan showed a picture of, and then with the older Atari's like the VCS and Darth Vader model, this kind of cable is permanently attached to the console itself, so using another cable is out of the question anyway for these. PAL consoles allow the channel 2-3 switch just as the NTSC ones. But with PAL televisions, you can tune the channel from the television yourself, so you can actually pinpoint the exact location of the picture. This is not a channel issue anyway, because how come some orginal carts produce NO interference... (that's always the thing that kills most explanations - SOME carts work just fine without any interference) It is not a cable issue. How would the cable know to make only SOME carts interfere like crazy, but leave some carts totally interference-free? (again, the killer-peculiarity about this.. some carts work just fine) - Monk

I can assure you, my cables have never been wrapped around the harmony cart. Yes. But I bought specifically very well shielded, expensive RF cables for this particular purpose. The effect; no change in interference. Well, to be exact, slight change in the NORMAL RF INTERFERENCE, but no effect in _THIS_ particular interference. Sure, but keep in mind, that you are testing with an Atari unit that didn't have any interference to begin with, and the interference you are talking about thus might not be THE SAME interference we are talking. Did it look exactly the same as my and Philsan's interference, or was it just the 'regular RF interference'? How about the interference in SOUND? (as you can hear in my videos) Personally, my diagnosis is, that as the interference still exists with also my NTSC Atari, some Atari units just HAVE it, some DON'T - and most of the Harmony Cart owners here seem to be just lucky that their Atari's do not have it. Would be interesting to exchange our Atari units for awhile and see what happens .. I mean, me sending you my NTSC Atari jr and you sending me yours.. (but it'd be too much trouble) So, I guess some Atari's are faulty in this way, and there's probably nothing that can be done about it. I guess I can live with that.. if only I could get hold of even one, even a PAL Atari that wouldn't have that interference, it would be of course easier to live with.. Now that NTSC problem bothers me so much though that I even dreamed of NTSC televisions which showed my NTSC Atari's picture with color and sound.. But that's probably a problem for another thread, so I won't bother you more of that here and now. Just a warning; DO NOT think you can get NTSC Atari working easily in europe, at least not in Finland! - Monk