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Monk

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Posts posted by Monk

  1. Posted

    I have also tested it with another TV (an LCD instead of CRT) but nothing changes again.

     

    It is a sticky problem, isn't it? I have also tested with many different televisions and all, and it was never completely away. It's curious how some games seem to suffer only little from it, and some games output extra pixel-looking things.. and in any case, the picture quality is way more fuzzy and incoherent than it is with a 'straight' cartridge.

     

    I plan to conduct more tests as these holidays finally end some day in the eternity, because then I might have a Darth Vader PAL version at my disposal, and I am able to test this in another location (far from airports and factories) and perhaps even with the NTSC Atari - I am sure with all those tests we are bound to get some information on what actually causes it.

     

    Still, I have kind of forced myself to use the Harmony Cart to play the games I have there, and I succeeded in enjoying them nevertheless!

     

    I played Keystone Capers, Ms. Pacman and a few others.

     

    Just as a sidenote; would anyone here happen to know this space-game for Atari - where you travel in space, then you land on a planet (or in a world), and you explore and you have some kind of mission there, then you can lift off at any time and then go to some other planet, etc.. I remember there being a city where you must land properly, and then the space itself is very VAST, you can easily get lost in there without even finding any planets..

     

    I can't remember it's name - the concept is just very fascinating to me.

     

    Anyways, I wish the beginning of the new decade to be better than the last decade put together.. (which isn't saying much unfortunetaly, hehe)

     

    - Monk

  2. Posted

    FWIW I tried the Harmony Cart on a PAL Darth Vader and had no major interference beyond the usual RF fuzz (I'll have to wait till Longhorn Engineer sells the PAL videomod, or practice my noob soldering skills). I'm in the Netherlands if that means anything. I have another Darth Vader and a Jr but haven't tried it on those.

     

    Okay, thank you!

     

    This is valuable information. Now we know not ALL PAL Ataris do this, it's just some individuals. Now if we could only pinpoint the key piece that causes it about some PAL Ataris, we could then make more educated guesses about what Atari's will suffer from the effect and what Atari's won't. Thus we could predict then reliably how it's going to behave - disappointing surprises would be then removed from existence when it comes to Harmony Cart!

     

    Could you please test at some point, at your own convenience of course, those other Ataris as well, and see if they have any interference beyond the usual RF stuff that we all are used and love?

     

    Thank you. Yes, Netherlands means something to me, I know people from there..

     

    - Monk

  3. Posted

    Anyway, just wondering: My tv can handle NTSC signals, but my Ataris are PAL. If I put the NTSC firmware on the Harmony cart, and run NTSC roms, would I be able to get correct NTSC colors despite my console being PAL? (A few games/homebrew just aren't available in PAL format).

     

    No. The PAL Atari has certain (A bit different) colors, and less of them than the NTSC Atari. Harmony Cart cannot summon colors that do not exist in the Atari itself.. (would exceed the scope of the Harmony Cart's functionality I think)

     

    This isn't just logical reasoning, I actually tested it out (:

     

    One pleasant side-effect happened from it though; the text is now a bit bigger and easier to read in the menu, and flickers less! (I guess it was previously in PAL mode, and is now in NTSC mode)

     

    PAL games still work, and everything else works just as it did previously.

     

    So you have PAL Ataris, and no interference? That's pretty interesting. Might I inquire which models do you have? You can respond in the Interference thread if you wish (better leave this thread for other purposes) at

     

    http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/155680-harmony-cart-interference/

     

    - Monk

  4. Posted · Edited by Monk

    No, I don't live near an airport...

     

    What about a factory? Cell phone network - oh, right - we all live in the middle of that. Hmm..

     

    I'll tell ya; it's gonna be mighty interesting getting to experiment with an NTSC Atari!

     

    But I have to wait for four whole days, and perhaps actually even seven more days or more (because of stupid holidays).. aagh!

     

    Oh well, I still have my Dreamcast and X-Arcade adapter for it and Capcom Vs. Snk 2 that I just completed (was really fun).. (:

     

    So maybe I can pass the time pretty easily anyway..

     

    - Monk

  5. Posted

    Monk, your video an my pictures explains exactly the problem we have.

     

    I have just tested a new PAL 2600jr.: same problem.

     

    No, I don't live near an airport...

     

    My thoughts exactly; it must be the SAME problem, not two individual and different ones.

     

    Was the other Atari also a 2600jr? So.. two PAL Ataris = problems.

     

    People with NTSC Ataris = no problems.

     

    Hm... perhaps that's it? PAL Ataris are somehow more sensitive to certain carts' interference-creating abilities? (which kinda sucks, because I was planning to lend this to my mom .. though she probably wouldn't be bothered as much as I, as her eye is not very good about this kind of things)

     

    - Monk

  6. Posted · Edited by Monk

    Yeah, it is kinda hard to try to ignore.

    As a test, you could try to wrap some shielding around your Harmony cart. Just to see if that helps.

     

    Yeeeessss... I could...

     

    If I just knew how (: I mean, I don't even know what qualifies as 'shielding'.. do I have to find some easy-to-bend metal somewhere? Are there other materials? I think the interference might be caused internally anyway, between the cart and the Atari, so I can't really put any shielding there.. (because I wouldn't know how anyway)

     

    But it would be something to experiment with of course, hmm.. perhaps you could tell me some pointers of how that could be accomplished, assume that I am a total newbie when it comes to shielding, ok? (:

     

    - Monk

  7. Posted

    Yersterday I have written I have solved my "interference problem" on my PAL 2600 connected to TV with antenna cable doing firmware update (PAL60 version).

    Before going to sleep I quickly checked Ms. Pac-man and not other games.

    This morning I have checked many other games and unfortunately I still have "interference" problems.

    Here are the pictures I have taken (Harmony cart on the left - original cartridge on the right).

     

    Philsan, that's very familiar-looking interference you have.. :-) ..

     

    Did you look at my video? You might see something very familiar too. I think we have the EXACT same problem. Do you live near any airport or factory or something like that?

     

    Do you have the 32-in-1 cartridge?

     

    Do you have other Ataris you could test with? Can you use an NTSC Atari?

     

    I am sorry to say this, but I am actually kind of relieved that you still have the problem, because it means I am not alone with this .. so instead of it being just a weird quirk in a weird person's life, it's actually a real, authentic phenomenon that MIGHT happen to some other PAL-using people too!

     

    Do you have an Atari 2600jr or some other model?

     

    With just one whining guy it's kind of easy to ignore and just forget all about it (not that anyone has, people have been very interested and helpful with this! I want to thank you all), but with TWO people having the same exact problem, verifiably so.. people tend to take it more seriously and try to find what actually exactly causes it.

     

    Which will be then for the benefit of potential future users which might otherwise have suffered as well..

     

    So, I kind of would wish to thank you for still having that problem, if it didn't sound so weird and corny :)

     

    Here is the link to my comparison video (I also have Pitfall! in it) again in case you missed it:

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TW0j1qwWh0

     

    - Monk

  8. Posted

    Wow, that's pretty awful. I noticed that the menu fonts seem to "change" when you move the cursor. Also the interlacing used for the fonts seems not to "merge" together. So instead of e.g. an S you see only every 2nd line which looks more like an X. Or is that your camera?

     

    Yeah, it is kinda hard to try to ignore.

     

    It's very difficult to answer your question, because I don't know how it's SUPPOSED to look like.. I can read the text ok, and I think it does the interlace all right (though I don't understand why interlace would be necessary - to get a higher resolution for the fonts, I suppose..(?)), but the text does look a bit mutated and garbled at times, and sometimes it's a bit difficult to read.. in any way it looks very messy and kinda ugly, compared to what I think it's supposed to look like.

     

    I think my crappy camera definitely has it's part though in making the fonts look even worse than they actually look like.. 30fps isn't very good for ~60Hz interlace, you know..

     

    - Monk

  9. Posted

    I made a comparison video of games, so you will really see what I am talking about when I say there is a difference..

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TW0j1qwWh0

     

    Please remember that I -just- uploaded it, so it's still probably in a bad picture quality (lots of compression artifacts) phase, until it's fully 'processed' by youtube. So, if you are seeing really bad quality and lost of compression, just wait for awhile and try again until the picture is clear and you can see what the heck I am talking about when I talk about the interference.

     

    - Monk

  10. Posted

    If it's your individual cart, I will of course send you another one to replace it, and you can send yours back and I can see what's actually wrong with it. Maybe we can rule something out, anyway.

     

    I also suggest measuring continuity between pins 1 and 24 of a 32-in-1 cart (actually anyone with one of these carts can) and see if this cart happens also has no connection between these two pins like the Harmony.

     

    So you saw the video all right now, and can clearly see what you were looking for? Weird phenomenon, huh?

     

    I appreciate your kind and honest offer, but I won't be sending it back no matter what. Once I finally have it in my hands, I don't ever want to part with it, hehe. Besides, I wouldn't want you to go through all that trouble and so on. I am very satisfied with it, and as I said, it is probably not the cart's fault, but just that individual Atari unit I have (or the airport)..

     

    Oh and I can't do any of those things you asked me to, hehe.. I am not electronical-minded person, I wouldn't recognize any loose connections or anything like that.

     

    Thanks again anyways for trying to help and all, I don't want to take any more of your time off your hands, I know how busy you are and how much important stuff you have to do.. don't worry about it, it's all right, I don't mind the interference that much. Maybe I will get used to it eventually and find it 'charming' or something :)

     

    I wish you a happy and uplifting decade transformation phase!

     

    Sincerely,

     

    - Monk

    A satisfied customer

  11. Posted

    Does this happen with other carts or just the Harmony? I suspect a very dirty cartridge slot or some of the video/sound components of the Atari may be failing (capacitor or two).

     

    Yes, SOME carts, like 32-in-1 for example. Jungle Hunt also has this. But Cosmic Ark doesn't!

     

    So it certainly depends on the cartridge. I have had my suspicions on that Atari unit ever since I got it.. (but a Darth Vader Atari 2600 showed even more intereference, though a bit different, I suppose, so I kept this one and gave the Darth Vader to my mom who doesn't even realize what interference is (: ..)

     

    I did test it by taking it many kilometers away to my mom's place, and it -seemed- there was much less interference there. So that airport might still be the main villain here, who knows.

     

    But your explanations wouldn't account for the fact that for many cartridges (River Raid, Cosmic Ark, Demon Attack, Chopper Command etc.) there is almost none of that interference (can't be sure that there isn't -any-, so I say 'almost', but I at least can't notice any that would disturb me at all when playing those games even if I really try to look very closely and accurately) ..

     

    So, I guess mr. Batari's explanations might be the only ones that would explain it, like that 'loop'-thingie because of the different structure of Harmony Cart.

     

    I just wonder why other people's Ataris don't cause this.. hm.. I should probably toy around with all the different Firmwares/BIOSes, just to make sure, but that will have to wait for awhile.

     

    Thanks for your interest for this curious and odd problem anyway!

     

    (Hm, perhaps I should make a side-to-side comparison video with a cartridge that doesn't show any, and with that exact same game loaded within Harmony Cart, to really show the difference)

     

    - Monk

  12. Posted

    Also some of the developers have PAL consoles and nobody has reported issues, so if may be your console or just your particular cart.

     

    Yes, I have been suspecting that particular Atari. Though again we are in the question of 'how will the Atari know which cartridges to mess up and which to leave alone'..

     

    Your explanations make a lot of sense though, and seem very valid. I hope to be able to test this as soon as these holidays and all things like that are over (there's only -one- working day next monday and then there's gonna be two 'holiday' days again, which means I might not get the NTSC Atari any time soon now.. I know it's been shipped already, but it takes lots of time for such a heavy package to arrive from USA all the way to Finland - besides, the customs might want to talk to me about it so it would take even more time)...

     

    So, I guess with lots of patience and just trying to cope with the interference for now, we might all get through this.. it's kind of lonely to be the only one with such interference, heh.. I almost wish someone else would have it too (I mean, now that the other person got it fixed - forgot his name though, sorry).

     

    Anyways, if all else fails, I can then bet it's that darn airport, which is really located so near that those private small airplanes are constantly flying over this building back and forth by day time..

     

    Google Earth shows it's about 1,608 meters to the nearest runway - that's almost exactly one mile.

     

    Thank you anyways for your interest in helping me in my curious and weird problem (I am almost getting used to having such weird problems that no one can ever really help me)..

     

    And thank you very much for creating this awesome Harmony Cart, I still love it and plan to use it even with the Interference - and still managed to have lots of fun with it yesterday and a little bit today too. So don't worry if we never get it solved, I still respect you and am very thankful to you for creating this and sending it to me for such a cheap price and good manual and everything!

     

    - Monk

  14. Posted · Edited by Monk

    Ok, I started a new thread about this, as I was kind of planning to do previously anyway, because I started feeling I was kind of hijacking that Harmony Cart preorder list.. sorry about that. These things just seem to happen so quickly it's easy to get lost in the discussion without realizing early enough what has happened.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW-LQ5Jxn6g

     

    I have seen black bars going up the screen on a 2600 with a bad PSU, but if it's just video artifacts, that's not it.

     

    Also some of the developers have PAL consoles and nobody has reported issues, so if may be your console or just your particular cart.

     

    A bad bypass cap could cause interference. Also the Harmony differs from other carts in that pins 1 and 24 aren't connected. These are supposed to be connected in the console but it us possible they are not in yours. If they aren't, a ground loop condition could occur that could cause interference.

     

    I personally can't tell the video interference in that video apart from the compression artifacts in the video.

     

    What am I looking for?

     

    I would like take this to PM or start a new thread if that's ok with you.

     

    The video was probably still processing. Try it again, now it should show the interference VERY clearly (and you can hear the audio - it's no compression artifact..)

     

    You'll see what you are looking for.. (:

     

    Thanks for the explanation by the way, that loop-thing would really explain it.

     

    - Monk

  15. Posted

    You bet, it was interesting! Thanks for pointing to it! Being able to watch the demos on a real 2600 really had my eyes open!!! I mean, the games are really *really* cool to have all on one cart, for convenience, but many have tons of game carts already. But I've never seen a 2600 run those demos as I've (of course) seen on the computers! Man, I knew I wanted one, but now I really want one!

     

    Aw, thank you so very much! It is good to hear things like this so I know if the videos I upload are interesting to others or not. Also, I am very glad about your kind words, you actually saved my day.. now I don't mind the interference so much..

     

    Yep, those demos are sometimes pretty interesting. A couple of them are a bit dull and colorless though but a few of them have an unique soul to it. And it's always such celebration to watch something like this with the real machine..

     

    About that intereferene; I think that my Atari 2600jr might be a bit broken anyways, as even paddles don't work with it .. I really wish the other Atari would fix alll my weird problems (I always have such odd problems instead of 'normal' ones)...hehe..

     

    Thank you again for your comments, mr. wood_jl - I truly appreciate them! Now I know at least one of my videos made a real difference..

     

    - Monk

  16. Posted

    Upgraded firmware to PAL60 and now Harmony's image quality is the same of real cartridges.

    Previously I installed PAL50 but I had problems.

     

    I managed finally to do the same - but it didn't help AT ALL (and yes, I did everything correctly, I got the 'BIOS updated successfully, press Fire to continue' (I am paraphrasing as I forgot the exact message) text displayed on screen).

     

    Rats.

     

    I guess there's not much that can be done about it then.. perhaps I should try the NTSC firmware also.. maybe I should go through all of them - the beginning menu doesn't show which version it is (I mean, it shows a version number, but doesn't tell if it's PAL60, PAL50 or NTSC), so I don't know which one I had in the beginning.. might have been the same PAL60.

     

    - Monk

  17. Posted

     

     

    I just meant it in a humorous way. I noticed it in the first video too, like Darth Vader.

     

    Curious, too, what country are you in, Monk?

     

    Yeah, I didn't get offended all that much, just a bit annoyed I guess. Like "hmph!"-style.

     

    I try to breathe the other way and holding my breath and all but in the end, none of it works, as I must focus on what I am filming too and then it's easy to forget the whole breathing problem. Yeah, it does sound a bit like darth vader, now that you mention it, heh. I guess I should have just exaggarated the effect to make it even more humorous (:

     

    I am right now in a country that is located in Fennoscandia.

     

    You?

     

    - Monk

  18. Posted

     

    Really good video of that interference, nice job. Mine (NTSC) is certainly doing nothing like that. I tested it tonight alongside a bunch of loose real carts, and got no different effect with Harmony or real cart, including with Ms. Pac Man.

     

    Thanks! I hope now everyone can see what I have to live with, hehe. I was trying to upgrade the firmware but I couldn't get the Harmony Cart to be recognized by the Programming Tool, and I had no idea how to install those drivers (I tried even reading the install guide, but that pointed me to reading some dpinst guide, and.. aargh, too much!)..

     

    Well, maybe a reboot will help.

     

    - Monk

  19. Posted

     

    Egad, that video actually sort of freaked me out. Especially when you add in your creepy breathing noises over it!

     

    Really good video of that interference, nice job. Mine (NTSC) is certainly doing nothing like that. I tested it tonight alongside a bunch of loose real carts, and got no different effect with Harmony or real cart, including with Ms. Pac Man.

     

    Creepy breathing noises? Thanks. I hope you realize as a living being, I must breathe, you know.

     

    - Monk

  20. Posted

    Upgraded firmware to PAL60 and now Harmony's image quality is the same of real cartridges.

    Previously I installed PAL50 but I had problems.

     

    Hmm, I don't know what I have. But I guess I better do this too, perhaps it would help! Though, will the Harmony Cart then work with an NTSC Atari? Or do I need to change the firmware every time I switch from PAL-Atari to NTSC-Atari and/or back? (my mom has only a PAL Atari, whereas I am hoping to use an NTSC-Atari soon)

     

    Thanks for pointing this out, now I will only have to figure out how the heck to do this.. :)

     

    - Monk

  21. Posted

    When designing Harmony, we were careful about RF interference and none was found during design and none has been reported until now. I'd definitely like to get to the bottom of this and see if there's anything we can do about it. From the video, I see a black bar that slowly moves up the screen. Is that it? If so, that's likely a power issue. I have some suggestions but I want to be sure what sort of interference you're getting first.

     

    No, that's not it. That's just the 50Hz (or 25fps) PAL signal or the 'not-EXACTLY-60Hz (or 30fps)' conflicting with my cameras fixed 30fps video recording.. - NTSC produces very small artifacts, but the PAL produces sometimes lots of flicker and such.

     

    Anyways, I have separately videoed the interference a bit, so you can see (and hear) what it's like.

     

    It is not a power issue. How would the power system know which cartridge is inserted..? (with many original carts there is almost no interference whatsoever, except that 32-in-1 cartridge)

     

    I still don't have an NTSC Atari or any other Atari to test with it, so I can't say if it's just with PAL Ataris.. but that may be the case. Also, I live near an airport (this is said to affect a lot in these things).. but again, that wouldn't explain why with some carts there is almost no interference.

     

    In that previous video, you can only get a very short glimpse of the interference, just when the first demo begins or so.. but this other video shows it better (videoing a television with my crappy camera is always a challenge, so you can't always see the interference obviously, but it's still in real life very bothersome and is hard to 'not notice', because it moves and changes a bit all the time, grabbing your attention..)

     

    Here is the new video, which shows the interference hopefully much better. I put on a bit more volume than usual just so you can hear the audible effects of the interface (mostly present in the menu only though!). And yes, I also can say the menu is a bit garbled, and not very clear, but it's clear enough to read most of the time anyway, so in that way it's not a big deal in itself.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW-LQ5Jxn6g

     

    (I -just- uploaded it, so it may take a few moments to 'process', as youtube calls it)

     

    - Monk

  24. Posted

    Look out for the available video output "mods" for the 2600. Either for Composite (cheap, but not perfect) or S-Video (more expensive, but great picture).

     

    For examples, look here.

     

    Thanks, I am planning to follow your advice.

     

    Btw, I shot a little video of my newly-arrived treasure.. nothing special, just playing a bit and demoing a bit.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5rbK-lR1OI

     

    Still, I think it might be interesting to some.

     

    - Monk

  25. Posted

     

    Are you using an antenna cable?

     

    :idea: If yes, you should try replacing it with a good, better shielded cable. That way all interferences should become much smaller or completely disappear.

     

    Just one sidepoint; do you really think my RF cable is that selective? "Oh, now he is using an ORIGINAL cartridge, I won't bring any interference!" or "Oh, now he is using Harmony Cart or 32-in-1, I will stop being shielded now!"..

     

    :)

     

    I mean, if it was about the cable, wouldn't ALL games have interference in them?

     

    - Monk

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