DimensionX

You probably shouldn't have spent several days arguing about colours then. Nope. I shouldn't. And you shouldn't spent days to explain how much greater a C64 is. Please just stop. Nobody has said this. You've continually said the Atari is BETTER because it has more colours. All anyone else has done is give an opposing viewpoint (which is FACT) that despite having less colours the C64 can display them more freely. So as a standard bitmap screen do you "prefer" 4 colours or 16? There's been no better involved in the argument, you're just seeing that because people are disagreeing with you. Pete I don't really care, what i care about is a fun game to play. Stop bloody going on and on about it then!! Jeeeez Pete I don't, if you read the latest postings.

Let me put it like this. If i am about to choose from playing either Turtles on XBOX360 or Millipede on Atari 800, the choice is simple. Millipede on Atari 800. So much for graphics...

no. we'll keep going for another few decades until we've reached a consensus only kidding Nah, perhaps next year.

You probably shouldn't have spent several days arguing about colours then. Nope. I shouldn't. And you shouldn't spent days to explain how much greater a C64 is. Please just stop. Nobody has said this. You've continually said the Atari is BETTER because it has more colours. All anyone else has done is give an opposing viewpoint (which is FACT) that despite having less colours the C64 can display them more freely. So as a standard bitmap screen do you "prefer" 4 colours or 16? There's been no better involved in the argument, you're just seeing that because people are disagreeing with you. Pete I don't really care, what i care about is a fun game to play.

In both cases those jobs could've been done better but are at least handling the majority of what is required. There are no Atari 8-bit versions of those games so at the moment the Atari 8-bit isn't anywhere near to handling those games. Why make a shoddy version of a great arcade game? Isn't it better to make specific C64 games, that the machine can handle? This is why i like games *like* armalyte or that A8 uridium clone. Something *inspired* by a great game on better hardware, but designed from the ground up within the limitations of the machine its running on arcade conversions are a usefull 'benchmark' I couldn't agree more. A game can be awesome in it's own right when using what the computer is good at. Often straight conversions will look bad when the hardware can't handle the graphics from the orginal machine. Besides that, they can add a few good things to the game to that isn't in the orginal version to make the game more fun to play.

You have spent several days not doing that so trying to lecture other people about it is just so much garbage. And the technical discussion is part of the process of making a good game; you can't write a good game without technical knowledge, you can't even design a good game without knowing how the hardware you're aiming at is going to handle things. At the moment, none of us are talking about games we're writing so no, we're not talking about how to make them playable. That's pure bull If you are talented enough, you can write a great game on a simple LCD screen, like Nintendo. So, what are we discussing? The sprites...bla bla bla...it's not possible to....bla bla bla It doesn't matter. In the end...the only thing that matters is to write at good game. With rainbows. lol I'm sorry but your comments are just hilarious considering your continued position that games look better with some pretty colours behind them. Pete Yup, a discussion like this is quite insane. We are arguing about computers almost 30 years old. Like someone said, it's no good. We'll better put it on ice. Good lyck with your game programming. Well if we can agree that there's no point continuing please stop trying to make YOUR point. You daily come to this conclusion then daily kick it all off again as if you feel you've lost somehow and have to have one more try. I repeat, nobody is trying to say you can't prefer what you prefer or change your mind somehow. If you want to show people what graphics/games you prefer, there are sections of this forum where people will be happy to discuss it with you without bothering to get into the technical side. It's a public forum after all, it's just in the wrong part of it atm. Pete No more screens posted.

You probably shouldn't have spent several days arguing about colours then. Nope. I shouldn't. And you shouldn't spent days to explain how much greater a C64 is.

That's great such a wish, but I think many people (also atari people) like nice graphics and sound too at the same time. Hmmm I think programming a game in 2010 like a game from 1983 would be a bit of a shame, people expect (also most atari xl people) nice graphics and sound too. Also in my opinion I think a decent and nice graphical/sound programmed game will be attractive for most people to just play the game. If we can have both why not? Graphics and sound is always secondary. Most importand is to make a game fun to play. Nice graphics will not make a good game but it can enhance an already good game.

...and rainbows. I thought that brits were funny? If you are representive for the brits, i was certanly wrong. This is humour. Neil: Come on guys, I don't think we should let this experience bring us down. After all, what's so wrong with dirty clothes anyway? Rick: Yeah! you know, what they say - dirty pants, clean botty. Mike: Dirty duvet, dirty mind. Vyvyan: Yeah - my knickers are so old, it's only the stubborn understains that are holding them together. While sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, it's still amongst the funniest and while the Young Ones IS funny, it's really toilet humour and rather low brow so no better than sarcasm. Pete I'm a big fan of series as The Young Ones and Bottom. British humour when it's best.

You have spent several days not doing that so trying to lecture other people about it is just so much garbage. And the technical discussion is part of the process of making a good game; you can't write a good game without technical knowledge, you can't even design a good game without knowing how the hardware you're aiming at is going to handle things. At the moment, none of us are talking about games we're writing so no, we're not talking about how to make them playable. That's pure bull If you are talented enough, you can write a great game on a simple LCD screen, like Nintendo. So, what are we discussing? The sprites...bla bla bla...it's not possible to....bla bla bla It doesn't matter. In the end...the only thing that matters is to write at good game. With rainbows. lol I'm sorry but your comments are just hilarious considering your continued position that games look better with some pretty colours behind them. Pete Yup, a discussion like this is quite insane. We are arguing about computers almost 30 years old. Like someone said, it's no good. We'll better put it on ice. Good luck with your game programming.

You have spent several days not doing that so trying to lecture other people about it is just so much garbage. And the technical discussion is part of the process of making a good game; you can't write a good game without technical knowledge, you can't even design a good game without knowing how the hardware you're aiming at is going to handle things. At the moment, none of us are talking about games we're writing so no, we're not talking about how to make them playable. That's pure bull If you are talented enough, you can write a great game on a simple LCD screen, like Nintendo. So, what are we discussing? The sprites...bla bla bla...it's not possible to....bla bla bla It doesn't matter. In the end...the only thing that matters is to write at good game.

...and rainbows. I thought that brits were funny? If you are representive for the brits, i was certanly wrong. This is humour. Neil: Come on guys, I don't think we should let this experience bring us down. After all, what's so wrong with dirty clothes anyway? Rick: Yeah! you know, what they say - dirty pants, clean botty. Mike: Dirty duvet, dirty mind. Vyvyan: Yeah - my knickers are so old, it's only the stubborn understains that are holding them together.

Yes we know, thanks for stating what is blindingly obvious to everybody. Says the person who has gone on for days now about colours over everything else. All i hear is tech talk all the time, not even a hint of to make a game fun or any new ideas for games. Then it's easy to think that only the tech part matters. Many of the most entertaining games are very old but still very fun to play. Robotron, Millipede etc. In this discussion only graphics and animation counts. C64 can do that, Atari can't do that. Let's put that talk to kingdom come, it doesn't matter in the end. The only thing that matters is to make or play a good game.

To all programmers in this thread... Remember, a game it not only about graphics and animation, or even sound. The hard part is to write a great game that is fun to play containing well thoughout levels, good balance and lots of replay value that really make this game great and fun to play. A "one more go" game. Else you can write a demo instead. Very few programmers can make a great game. Nintendo was outstanding good at making simple games that really was fun to play and had lots of replay value. Even if they just used simple LCD displays, like Game & Watch. Many programmers forget that part and concentrate their effort on graphics and sound instead. I think anyone who makes a great fun game does more for these old computers then anything else. Because todays youngsters will not be impressed of any graphics on a C64 or Atari 800. But a real good game would impress them a lot more. So instead of to just show off some graphics and sound, make a fun and great game instead. It can be a simple puzzle game, or a real fun platform game, but it will have to be fun to play.

We had a lot of good coders in Sweden under the late 80's and eraly 90's for Atari ST. TCB was most famous i think. We had lots of good tracker musicians as well in this country. Polen seems to be no:1 for the Atari 8bit. Yeahhh Swedish coders rule!!!! I also must say that I always found the ST scene nicer than the Amiga scene, my best friend in that time had the Amiga 500 so I also went with him to Amiga parties. For the 8 bit Atari it indeed is Poland who do a very good job, I think even the best job. For example I saw a demo of Turrican on youtube for the Atari XL (That is from Polish coders right?)...well it seems to me a good beginning of a great job for the Atari XL. I also think like you that Atari xl can do more than everyone thinks...I spoke to many XL coders in the past en I learned a lot, but also my best friend was a c64 machinecoder and he learned me a lot about c64 possibilities. Still many things are not yet proved on the Atari XL and I think that is a shame, there are Atari XL coders around who can do amazing things on Atari XL but just do not have the time to make a game...we Atari XL lovers wish for coders the DO have the time for great games on the Atari XL. One problem is that C64 has been so much more used and explored the A8 because of a much bigger userbase. I'm sure of that A8 has several unexplored bits to discover yet. Always a pleasure to meet someone who like demos on the ST and XL. Yeah I really enjoyed the Atari ST and XL demos...in fact a few time ago I did nothing anymore with Atari or commodore. I produce music nowadays on the PC but some months ago I was surfing on the internet and I suddenly became again in love with the old computers especially what I discovered on the Atari XL and Commodore 64. I asked my dad if he still had a 8 bit computer at home and he said : "Yes I still have an Atari 800XL" I was happy and I got the Atari 800XL from my dad. Now I am gonna exploring the XL again like I did in the 80s. I am already searching for machinecode learning books, to fresh up my 6502 knowlegde. Here in the Netherlands there still are Atari XL users and I am planning to propose an Atari XL club and I know there are coders between them, maybe we can code together for the XL, but nothing is sure for now. 1 thing I learned from the past is that they in that time said it is not possible on the ST became a reality on the ST. And so I think when the Atari XL coders go on exploring the XL we can expect some amazing things in the future, I am sure about that. ST was a quite flexible computer and i saw some amazing results both from demos and serious applications. My ST got over 1350 % faster using the NVDI application for exemple which replaced the C code in GEM with pure machine code. Steinberg fixed real multitasking on the ST using MROS for exemple. Photochrome was able to display over 19.200 on screen colours of a palette of over 32.000 colours. I whish you good luck with your coding.

@Best TMR I lost the respect long ago. You have no arguments left to bring. Nothing but empty words. I like Atari, you like C64 Well, i see nothing wrong about that. Carry on.

The person who included it in their screenshots as examples of what the A8 could do would be the idiot in that case... and just to borrow that "logic" for a second, Streetfighter 2 is far from IK+ so it was an idiotic example from the beginning - i believe you introduced that one as an example as well. Not at all. It was only to show Pete why you shouldn't exceed limitations of the machine, nothing else. And that's a rubbish argument because the only reason Streetfighter 2 is as crappy-looking as it is isn't to do with limitations of the machine but because it's a piece of badly written, rushed garbage that was pushed out in a hurry to make money. It doesn't prove your point in the slightest and selecting it for that point when there are significantly better examples of the genre makes you look like an idiot. And then we are out of arguments i see. The only thing left is personal attacks. Thanks for that compliment.

I agree. Blinky was an idiotic example for you to post. I don't what possessed you to post it in the first place. In fact, it's almost as unattractive as that ugly Alternate Reality shot you look upon so fondly. I mean, look at it. Look at that rock wall. Yurk! It's as if the over the top gradient is desperately trying to divert attention from that wall. From now on, i don't going to answer your irrelevant postings. I didn't posted that pic because of the rock wall... I think that you will be far better off to post without my replies.

Look at it like this, for non coders only great graphics matters. They don't care about sprites or details in few colours. To impress such people show glowing colours and shiny graphics. No, you want that but not everyone else does. People who don't even know that much shouldn't be involved in programming discussions. Are they allowed to watch the games? And to think that they look good, or not? I think that screens and the actual game say much more then words, don't you? Every time i post something you say, C64 would do it much better. I don't belive that anymore, it's just words.

We had a lot of good coders in Sweden under the late 80's and eraly 90's for Atari ST. TCB was most famous i think. We had lots of good tracker musicians as well in this country. Polen seems to be no:1 for the Atari 8bit. Yeahhh Swedish coders rule!!!! I also must say that I always found the ST scene nicer than the Amiga scene, my best friend in that time had the Amiga 500 so I also went with him to Amiga parties. For the 8 bit Atari it indeed is Poland who do a very good job, I think even the best job. For example I saw a demo of Turrican on youtube for the Atari XL (That is from Polish coders right?)...well it seems to me a good beginning of a great job for the Atari XL. I also think like you that Atari xl can do more than everyone thinks...I spoke to many XL coders in the past en I learned a lot, but also my best friend was a c64 machinecoder and he learned me a lot about c64 possibilities. Still many things are not yet proved on the Atari XL and I think that is a shame, there are Atari XL coders around who can do amazing things on Atari XL but just do not have the time to make a game...we Atari XL lovers wish for coders the DO have the time for great games on the Atari XL. One problem is that C64 has been so much more used and explored the A8 because of a much bigger userbase. I'm sure of that A8 has several unexplored bits to discover yet. Always a pleasure to meet someone who like demos on the ST and XL.

The person who included it in their screenshots as examples of what the A8 could do would be the idiot in that case... and just to borrow that "logic" for a second, Streetfighter 2 is far from IK+ so it was an idiotic example from the beginning - i believe you introduced that one as an example as well. Not at all. It was only to show Pete why you shouldn't exceed limitations of the machine, nothing else.

Well yeah, i'm trying to do things i've not seen done on the Atari 8-bit all the time - but there are still hardware limitations that'll never be fully circumvented (or can only be worked around with restrictions), the Atari coders are saying as much here... Exactly, some of us "c64 fanboys" only came here to learn the Atari to use some of our multi-platform knowledge and see if we couldn't help in coaxing some new stuff out of the old machine. Seems some people won't care how impressive it is if it's not got a rainbow behind it Pete Look at it like this, for non coders only great graphics matters. They don't care about sprites or details in few colours. To impress such people show glowing colours and shiny graphics. They don't even know any limitations of the machine.

No, you post things like Blinky on Atari, then someone posts the C64 versions which BLATANTLY has MORE COLOURS and you dismiss it as messy. THAT is silly. Pete No, i don't post things like Blinky. Take a look again on my posted screens. Because Blinky looks terrible. Post #83, YOUR post, with that shot of Blinky. http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/142211-commodore-64-vs-atari-800-xl/page__view__findpost__p__1995758 Now who is lying? Pete I posted lots of pics that i quickly choosed from a big map of screenshots, Blinky must have entered there by misstake, because it don't look very good. On the other hand, Blinky is far from Alternate Reality so it was an idiotic exemple from the beginning.

We had a lot of good coders in Sweden under the late 80's and eraly 90's for Atari ST. TCB was most famous i think. We had lots of good tracker musicians as well in this country. Polen seems to be no:1 for the Atari 8bit.

Hmm. You seem to be confused, so I'm going to gently walk you through my earlier post in two parts. PART ONE - In which I criticise the two colour blurky mess that is Alternate Reality's rock wall, and ask if throwing a high contrast gradient behind it makes it CLEAR. Hmm. So a rock wall drawn in a grey and a purple of about the same luminance all blended together in a murky mess becomes CLEAR so long as a high contrast gradient is slapped in behind it? PART TWO - In which I wondered if you could have chosen a poorer example of so-called clear graphics, and suggested that your earlier inclusion of Blinky's Scary School was almost an equally poor example. So you see? Saying "But Blinky is no relevant to Alternate Reality!" is actually irrelevant in itself. I am comparing Blinky to AR in no way except to suggest that is a similarly poor example of these so-called clear Atari graphics you keep harping on about. I hope I've made myself CLEAR. LIKE ATARI! So what? I don't care, i want Atarigames that looks Atari. The old games, that's why i'm a retrogamer. And when i want something more new i'll move to ST, SNES or Playstation.