DimensionX

Here's the Atari 8-bit game i've finished and released: Try playing it yourself. i have another game that's complete barring the music and several others in prototype form. Here's the little demo i was asked to write: And again, you might want to try it yourself. These are programs for the Atari 8-bit that i personally have written, that makes me a programmer regardless of your "logic". The "mock-up or shut up" image you mean? That was drawn from an Atari 8-bit palette rather than a C64 one so it seems that after you repeatedly going on about how good the Atari colours are, you can't tell them from the C64 palette. What happened to the picture? Did you washed it? Okey, now we are even and i have posted off some of the irritation.

Oh yeah... another three colour bias-relief that doesn't match any of the criteria you've been going on about or prove a single point as regards Xenon. I played that game right now. A Xenon for A8 is possible by judging of that experience.

As a fellow synesthete, I'm sure you understand that the sensory impressions we all experience are different across people, meaning your friends here could very easily have poor reactions to the Atari colors. So then, why can't you just put your expression of how great the machine is out there, and move on? It's not like anybody has to agree with you. We also really like the machines, which is why all of us are here! Ataris are my favorite 8bit computer! They are yours too. Enjoy them for what they are to you, but also realize that others perception is different, and there isn't anything you can do to change that, other than to produce some programs on the machine that demonstrate your ideas clearly. !!!yes, programming skill is required!!! The good news is you can always start right now. Get your machine out, get one of those cool APE cables, or an sio2pc / usb things, or setup your favorite emulator, and start getting after it, just like all the others have done. Finally, the other things you mentioned are not "more advanced" than retro computing is. They are just different things, and some arguably being unreal things, not worth discussion. Your ideas may appeal to you, but have no real context in this discussion. Feel free to fire up a new thread in general chat to prove otherwise. I know I personally would find that discussion very interesting and entertaining. Just to underscore your last post: You claim to be a synesthete. What that means is your sensory perception is altered from that of an ordinary, typical person. These things are unique to you, and you alone, as others either experience the blending of senses, or do not, and in either case, won't experience what you experience, and that's a documented fact. Your constant declaration of the colors being "clear", or better, or whatever, is unique to you. Know that, you said it, and I'm just putting it out there, in the hopes of moving things along. Enjoy your gift, enjoy the Atari machines, and quit trying to impose your view of the world onto others, who are extremely, highly, likely to see it quite differently. Wise words. I'll will take your advice. We synethetes are a bit more sensitive then regular people. I also have a hot temper. I think that most creative persons have.

Whaddayanow...

So in other words you're not able to actually argue about the topic in hand and are going to resort to petty insults. Well, at least you're being honest this time... i'll stop you there. This is the programming section so discussion about programming needs at least some programming skill and at the very least an understanding of the Atari 8-bit - you have neither. Oooh, no. Here we go again... I think that you will be fine continue this discussion without me. If i'm not here, no insults. (and no action) That's fine.

I'm really fed up with all brainless comments and "funny" guys in this thread. You can praise your beloved machine without me, halleluja.

and Octal, but only on Sundays after 11 AM and before tiffin. Ooh, the funny guy in this forum? Do you know any good jokes about lzma compression as well? When i'm supposed to laught? Give me a hint.

Um, no, none that I can think of. Thanks for asking though! Well... actually I might. Something about someone who doesn't grasp what others are telling them. Yeah, I'd say that could be a problem, but certainly not my problem. Actually I have so I didn't need your constant demonstrations of it in this thread, thank you. Yes, I know you don't. Even when posts are written by people who are far more experienced in such matters then you. You're giving me this advice? What about those who post pointless posts pointlessly? Garak Hmmm, is english your native language? If that's the case, it's hard to belive. Don't underestimate yourself. They aren't as "wise" as you might belive. You think that they are experts who posesses great knowledge? Wrong Not in this particular discussion. Between us, they aren't programmers in this discussion, even if i whish they were, they are plain C64 fanatics, and that's something completely different. If they were programmers we should have a sensible discussion instead of dealing with impossible arguments when fanatics trying to defend something to death, no matter what methods. Not even the rainbow TRM posted...was one. All i saw was shoddy C64 colours in wrong resolution. You can't argue with fanatics, they will not listen to any arguments against their own beloved machine. C64 can do no wrong or bad and 16 colours will be enough to create anything, yes, they really belive such things. You will see the same situation when trying to discuss with hardcore Linux users. Linux is best and can't do no wrong or fault. But don't belive it. I don't, that's why i entered this thread. I normally deal with far more advanced things then retro computing i can tell you. And if you could speak swedish you would understand why by visting one of my blogs where you can read about my theories about both time, metaphysics, consciousness and secondary perception. The world isn't anything that you think it is. But we can save that for another time. Perhaps i will post in english too when i have sharpen my skills a bit more. Who knows, you might find it interesting. Besides that i'm a synesthete. If you don't know what that is, check Wiki or similar. Good luck with, whatever you do.

Not unless its in binary. Or hex, hex is good as well. Oooh, nerd humour? I'm real tired of all "just to annoy you" postings. I tried to be nice to you, no more mr nice guy. And i don't care at all if i get banned. Just bring it on. You don't need any programming skill at all to see how incredible clear the colours of an Atari is. The opposite to the limited and shoddy C64 colours. You only need a pair of eyes. Please, use them. The "rainbow" that you posted...was sad to watch, next time, please make a rainbow. If it's not about Atari vs C64, then this thread must be off topic and a new thread should be started.

DimensionX there dragged the thread back from the grave and spent all his time trying to tell people that he was right but that he wasn't trying to say one machine was better or anything... we're just a little too polite to report him to the mods. =-) Well, go ahead, cry out and report me then? Because you can't say anything to the forums "elite programmers". Oooh, praise the 16 colour palette, C64 is soo incredible great. I thinking of to replace my PS3 for a C64. Be very glad that we don't discuss this in swedish... Then i'm not limited by the language. No, this isn't the discussion that i want. You are free to discuss the C64 praise yourselves.

Hrrrm Such big problems that you have? Do you have other problems as well that bothers you? Ever heard of "change your mind", that's right, we humans can actually change our minds even if it don't seems that way at first. Between us, do you take everything written for "definitive?". I certanly don't. Next time, do some thinking before posting something like that because you just annoy by posting pointless quotations like that without even being a part of this conversation.

But where's all that "Bitmap style" you thought was so very important a few pages ago then? The answer is that whilst Last Guardian is a reasonably good game (the difficulty is geared a little hard) and makes decent use of the Atari 8-bit hardware, it doesn't go anywheres to proving your point about Xenon in the slightest and is irrelevant because it's not getting as many colours onto the screen as even the existing C64 port of Xenon, let alone my mock-up. Mock-up or shut up. You don't understand. It's all about shades. In fact you could turn Xenon into black and white and use only 5 nuances in total and make a much more true version of it then on C64 and Spectrum. But you must have that metal look, something that you can't achieve on C64 and spectrum no matter what you do. The next level you use 5 nuances of green. And the next level 5 nuances of another colour, as long as you keep that orginal metal look on Xenon. Okey, it will be less colours but still look much more "Xenon".

Not a chance. Do you know why? Atari has much more clear colours then that. Bye for now. Sorry to argue again but as an A8 one I have a constant battle to get things shown on A8, better or at least the same. The majour, usual problem it's ColourMap on A8. How will we get this... more than Sprites many of the times. Any one know how to develop an A8 Colour Map? Xenon- Ex.:3Grays, 3Blues(Floor) and 3Yellows(Fire) at least and Black Backgr. colour. This is a simple 3colour 160 2:1 normal 8bit Char mode. A8 only possibble if you Ored Grays and you can get all possibble colours. Let's say you use PM2 for Yellows and PM3 for Blues. Not possible, because PMs width not covering Screen width. And only PM0&1 left. Now what you do, use it for your Ship, Enemy(s)? Use Grays for all Moving Objects? You'll get PF2&PF3 clash? How to? Yes, how to? It's why I am still looking/try... I think I can get some games but a Master on A8 to use in all? Impossile! DimensionX you say you're OFF, but I think you're around here (on the "Backs..." ) so, please read this and think. Stop a little bit to think, if anyone get solutions A8 needs them!... I'll not to... again. It's my time to be only on the "Backs...", I think Greetings. José Pereira. I will answer just ju Jose. Last Guardian manage to get a descent metal look in all colours including lots of glimmering effects and animated objects, extremly smooth scrolling with lots of sprites on screen at the same time. It's from Tynesoft 1988. You can try it yourself here. http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-last-guardian-_2922.html

I will quote myself, just to show all of you how TMR lies... But you wasn't happy with that, on no, C64 was sooo superior. And that's why i'm outta here... To discuss with fanatics is pointless.

This is, of course, a DOWNRIGHT LIE because here's part of your second post to this thread: You wanted no computer to be better... but declared the Atari 800XL "the winner". What a load of garbage you talk. Are you sure that you are a programmer? I thought that programmers was quite smart? Help! Can anyone help me? Please TMR, can you read my postings? I have never claimed that A8 is capable of to copy Xenon on Atari ST. But A8 is capable of something that C64 isn't, to display metal material with all it's colours, and that is what Xenon is about, nuances of one colour. Metal green, metal yellow, metal blue, and so on. It worked in Warhawk, why shouldn't it work with different graphics? It's perhaps no "ST Xenon" but it's more Xenon then C64 ever could produce with it's super tiny palette. And this threads topic is about C64 vs Atari, isn't it? And stop quote OLD postings like you did the last time. Read my postings instead of lying like that. Quote the posting i posted 2 days ago instead of choosing real old irrelevant postings.

Great! Rainbows like I tried Xenon on my "Screen from..." Thread. From what I'm seeing in your picture you're using Black-Backgr. and 3Grays as PF0,1&2. Leaving PF3 5th colour Ground Floor. Yeah looks good and get 2Grays as PFs for our Ship (SoftSprite). Yes, now you can probbably prove A8 looking better in the Enemys: 1.)- PM0&1 and PM2&3 for 2Enemys 3colours (in Multicolour Mode) 2.)- Or Each PM Ored correspondant colours (PF2 conflict PF3) but possibble? And another problem: Grays as 3PFs. and how would you get colors in the Plants Level (Xenon1&2 or just in 2? I don't remember... DimensionX you are like me but try to show, prove!... I always posts screens but I Play them first,, YouTube, Maps, Ripped Sprites frames. Then I know (I think) and post them. On this time this Guys says yes or no here or there. I've learn how the things work on A8 and others... I still have to start learrning Assembly... Probably I'm near, very near... But first I learn how the things work/possibble... Why don't you start using G2F but if the screen was on a real Game (PMs. left for Players,...)!... Greetings. José Pereira. Sorry about that José Pereira, you seems to be a sensible guy and i whish you good luck with your programming. It's not especially fun when there's pointless arguing in a thread like this. I think that you are far better off to continue this discussion then me. Now some words to the other in this thread, this is my last posting here...definitely. It's quite pointless to discuss with people who thinks that "their machine" is the best in the universe and don't want to hear any arguments, for anything. And if you show them screenshots, they are off course either false, irrelevant, or the graphics in them worthless because "their machine" can't do such things. 1977 Atari VCS 2600 was released. C64 was released 5 years later, 1982. Atari VCS 2600 had 8 times the palette of C64. Does that say something? No, off course not, C64 is the best "colour computer" in the universe with it's unlimited almost uncountable, endless 16 colour palette where nuances of yellow is a possibility for perhaps the year 2048. Even Spectrum can produce nuances of yellow. @TMR And yes TMR, it's different greys but way to harsch to be called real shades, you can easily see it's different greys where one of them is way to dark because lack of a real palette to choose colours from. Shades is fine nuances of one colour, not rough coloring with different greys. Now, try yellow and you are going to notice how limited the uncountable endless zero space palette on C64 really is. I'm leaving this pointless discussion. At first i wanted the computers to be just different and no computer was the better one. But after todays discussion i see A8 as superior and just feel sorry for C64's useless dwarf palette where shades of yellow is science fiction and where Spectrum easily wins using it's bright command. Colours is not graphics? bull Say that again and load Xenon on C64. And don't forget to skip the level containing gradient yellow...

Not a chance. Do you know why? Atari has much more clear colours then that. Bye for now.

Pictures are worth a thousand words. Please provide a Xenon A8 mock-up or admit that you don't know if would look better on the A8 because you can't prove it. Before i log out. Please, at least read my postings. Back a bit.

I hear lots of pretty words of how much better C64 is all the time and how worthless A8 is. Perhaps it's time to post some evidence to back it up? Let me get this straight. Atari has many colours, that can't be used proper That's pure bull. C64 with it's 16 colours can recreate games from Atari that uses both more and different colourschemes. That's bull too And it shows in all screenshots. Even in games from 1983. Get real, else it just becomes silly. *taking a break* Because i find it hopeless to even try to discuss with fanatics.

At the moment we are discussing your lack of a mock-up for something that you say would be better on the A8. Programming and hardware limits are very, very closely linked. Please backup what you say with your Xenon mock-up on the A8. Please show us. We await your 800XL Xenon Kung Fu magic with baited breath. To discuss with people who don't want to listen, is a waste of time. If you are about to annoy someone, please do it with some finess. I'm sooo tired of repeating the same things over and over again.

Looks like shades to me. Two shades of blue with light grey as highlight, three shades of grey and the yellow bit is done almost exactly the same way as the ST using shades of grey and yellow. Your turn to produce a mock-up or shut up. Shades of two colours? Are you joking? I'm speaking shades. Fine nuances of one colour. Fine nuances that you will not be able to use on a mock-up of Xenon, at least not one that will actually work as a game. Again, mock-up or shut up. That isn't shades, that is different colours. Please listen. When using shades you use fine nuances of the same colour. Shades look like a "material", this looks like different colours. When it's time for yellow, you will only have one colour on the palette... And you'll need at least 4 nuances to create something that looks like Xenon.

You are in the PROGRAMMERS FORUM this discussion isn't in the general A8 section. Arguing with programmers when all you've got is screenshots and you can't explain why design decisions were made, how the code works or what the limitations of the machine are just make you look as bright as a .1W light bulb. When one is a 1MHz 8 bit machine and the other is an 8MHz 16/32 bit machine its not going to be a fair comparison is it? Please, at least try to understand? We are discussing C64 vs A8? Are we? We are NOT discussing programming but hardware limits and which computer is the better one? I have posted countless of screens so far to prove what i say while some of you bring both pointless and silly arguments. You can't discuss with people who don't want to listen, or backup what they say. By judging of games like Warhawk for A8, it's possible to create a vertical scolling shooter with metal graphics, like Xenon. But how close you will get to the orginal version is another story.

No we aren't joking. We don't know what you mean. Please show us YOUR MOCK-UP of Atari 800XL Xenon so that we can compare it against TMRs C64 version. C'mon, stop fooling around. It just becomes silly. You're WELL aware of what shades of a colour is. Atari can normally handle 8 shades of all colours.

In a programmers forum, screenshots of something you didn't design, code or draw graphics for mean absolutely nothing . I don't need screenshots for Xenon. You are the one making claims that it could look better on the A8. Please show us all. Are you joking? That was almost too silly. Then no one can ever post a screenshot of a game to prove something? So, if i say that the ST version of Xenon looks much better then the C64 version, then i can't post some screens of the actual game graphics to prove it? Are you kidding? And if i say that MR Robot in the Atari version uses gradiant graphics and the C64 version does not. I can't post a screen to prove it? I will have a hard time to take you seriously from now on...

Looks like shades to me. Two shades of blue with light grey as highlight, three shades of grey and the yellow bit is done almost exactly the same way as the ST using shades of grey and yellow. Your turn to produce a mock-up or shut up. Shades of two colours? Are you joking? I'm speaking shades. Fine nuances of one colour.