DimensionX

So... Just a make a mock-up using shades. I'm not talking about the C64. I'd like to see your mock-up of how Xenon would look on the Atari 800XL. Arguing with a bunch of programmers (in the programmers forum) when you can't back up your claims with solid evidence isn't going to make you look good. If we say that we can do something we can produce a demonstration showing it. If you say that the A8 can do something, even if you aren't a programmer, you can still show us by drawing an image using the A8 palette and taking into account the constraints of the system. I'm about the only one here who post something that confiirms what i say? That's why i post screenshots all the time. Where are your screenshots? I hear soo much, but i see very little that backs it up. I said that yesterday too.

No it's not, but at the same time people playing the game probably didn't care less and it's only fanboys like you who get all excited about the colours; dedicated Atari programmers on this very message board have said in public in other threads that Alternative Reality isn't particularly well done because it runs out of on-screen colours and rainbow splits the buildings. No it isn't, it's a terrible game on all platforms and we're not even talking about playability in that particular case, just your bogus and totally unproven claims that the A8 could do it better. Graphics. Not colours, graphics. They aren't the same thing. Colours is a part of the graphics, if they are used.

Sorry IMO this Alternate Reality game is a bonkers comparison Its just still pictures, and they've clearly been badly converted between formats. i wonder which format was the original. the C64 can handle stills much better than these as proven elsewhere on the thread. It would have to dither, but it has roughly 5 shades of grey, red-browns or blues from what i could gather If the A8 shots are "better" than the Amiga, thats clearly down to it being a bad conversion and nothing to do with relative hardware merits of the platforms. The amiga can of course do same 'rainbows', as well as displaying propper shades of detailed graphics 16 vs 8bit isn't a fair comparison (unless its PC-engine ..) Alternate Reality is not only still pictures, it's moving too. You walk around in AR.

You don't need to program it you just make a mock-up of the screen using the A8 palette and take into account the limitations of the hardware. As programmers (who you are arguing with) we are all able to specify how graphics for our favourite machines should be drawn if we have an artist on board for our projects. Since you are the expert at saying what is possible, please show us. The basic point is... Xenon uses shades C64 can't use shades of more then grey, possible, and then we don't even talking fine shades. Xenon is all about shades, something that A8 can display. You will not get an exact copy of the ST game, but you will get something that looks more Xenon thanks to shades. Shades of green, shades of blue, shades of yellow, that's Xenon.

i've said all the time that the C64 couldn't replicate that ONE GAME EXACTLY you idiot, the point is that the concession of dropping all the "pretty" rainbow colours (there are Atari coders who will tell you it doesn't look particularly good, by the way) isn't a deal breaker and the game is just as playable. The things that the C64 does that the A8 can't replicate are more important for actually making games. No, because you made bogus claims about Xenon being possible on the A8 and still haven't proved it - presumably because you haven't got a clue how the A8 hardware actually works and should therefore not be posting to this PROGRAMMING DISCUSSION AT ALL. It's not only that game. A lot of games couldn't be reproduced on the C64, because of the colours. Atari has many more, remember? Besides that A8 can do some graphical tricks that C64 can't. What you get is NOT the Atarigame. Xenon is for sure playable on the C64 too... Nuff said Graphics matters. I have posted lots of games that the C64 never could recreate with it's tiny palette of only 16 colours. But you will for sure get them "playable", like Xenon or the C64 version of Alternate Reality, minus all the magic colours. Well, i can't program a "Xenon" within days. But who knows, perhaps someone puts up a remake of Bitmap Brothers excellent shooter. Fine nuances shouldn't be a problem anyway.

i never said a big palette is a bad thing, just that not being able to use it well is a problem. You don't understand the Atari 8-bit's display hardware well enough to realise that and it's not even about comparisons with the C64, it's a pain in the arse to work with. But that want stop you to get some pretty good results if you know the hardware. I have seen more then one real good looking game on A8 i can tell you. After so many years, it stills produces awesome colours. The best one was the orginal Atari 800 even if it had fewer colours.

Doesn't matter, you've found one game the C64 couldn't replicate exactly but i could name a hundred in return that the A8 can't do without major concessions. And we already have a challenge on the table because you reckoned the A8 could handle Xenon better than the C64, so mock-up or shut up. At last you admitted that. Well, i agree. C64 is the better machine for some things, but for other things Atari is the better machine. None of them is best, just different. Are we finished with this discussion now?

And that's got naff all to do with what i just said. Again, mock-up or shut up because until you've actually tried doing something with the A8's graphics you are not qualified to talk about what they can do in this programming forum. You couldn't even recreate one screen from the Atari version of Alternate Reality with that few colours. Alternate Reality uses a minimum of 64 on screen colours. It becomes a bit silly TMR. You can't say that a big palette is a bad thing to have.

Compare with the Atari 2600 palette for exemple. Or Atari XL

This is not much to choose from, is it? Let's see... 2 Greens 1 Yellow 2 blue 1 purple 3 greys 1 white 1 turquoise 2 brown 1 black 2 red

Thanks to this thread i have understand what C64 is good at. But i have also understand what C64 isn't good at. Thanks for many both interesting and readable postings. A8 can't simply compet with C64 in certain areas because of it's limitations. But outshines C64 in other areas that C64 isn't good at. Like clear colours for exemple. @Pete There is several advantages of having a big palette to choose colurs from. 1.You can choose nuances of colours 2.You can switch palettes lots of times in a game to make it more different, perfect for both shoot'em ups, driving games and platform games. On ST they often changed the palette for every new level to create more variation. Like in Xenon for exemple. So 16 colours can become hundreds of colours in the same game, but not simultaneously off course. 3.The game library will be more diffrent when you use different colours for different games So even if "on screen" colours is limited it's a great thing to have a big palette to choose colours from. Now over to something completly different... I have been talking about the quality of the A8 colours. Now i'm about to show you what i mean. To make this more easy i will post all pictures as attachements AND from my picturehost. Well, we are about to take a look at the game "Alternate Reality The City". The first time i saw this game was in the british computer magazine Your Computer. US Gold was about to release some new titles for Atari and C64, one of the titles was "The Goonies" but it was title nr 3 that was most interesting, Alternate Reality. I thought that the graphics was no less then stunning. Wow, i must buy this game when it's released. We will take a Look at the C64 version to begin with. Hmmmm, pretty basic and not much use of colours to create a moody game. PNG, 652x1048px, 83 KB (0.08 MB) Next we will take a look at the DOS version. Pretty basic too. PNG, 652x624px, 256 KB (0.25 MB) Next up is the Atari ST version of the game. I recall myself being very disapointed with this version. It looks okey, but no more and the gradients is far off from the A8 version of the game. PNG, 984x624px, 77 KB (0.08 MB) Next up is the Amiga version, now we expect a bit more. Amiga is using more colours and this version is more moody then the ST version and looks a bit like "The Bards Tale". But it's still very little use of colours in some places. PNG, 984x1472px, 236 KB (0.23 MB) Last, the A8 version. I have added a couple of screenshots that i didn't post earlier. This version is pure magic. The colours are sooo clear and moody. For me personally this version beats the crap out of all previous mentioned versions of the game. Digital art. PNG, 780x1500px, 371 KB (0.36 MB) To show you how much more clarity A8 has, i will post two more screenshots. To the left we have the ST version, including gradients. But if you compare with the A8 version to the right the pale in clarity and richness. Not even comparable. The A8 colours are sooo much clearer. PNG, 668x240px, 15 KB (0.01 MB)

Be my guest, I'd actually like to see it because there are things that are possible on the 800 but I think you're waaaaaay out of your depth with that one. Pete Never say never. Miracles has happend before. I must log out for now, have a great evening Pete and TMR.

In the screenshot i was prodding at, it has fifteen colours in the play area alone and a colour count of the entire screen is also fifteen colours so no, the rest didn't go to the status. Five, so that's already used your entire colour quotient on the A8 and there are no blue tiles, red bullets, yellow markings... You will have to make it more monochrome then the ST version, but you can still create a Xenonlike game with some fine nuances. About Xenon Then you have effects of the shots for exemple in Xenon that uses some more colour.And many time is that colour used somewhere else too. It's about to compromise a bit. Off Topic Thanks for an intresting discussion guys. I have a big problem that you don't have. I must concentrate on the language all the time, else it will be more errors just about everywhere, all the time. How do you say this in english? Something that you don't have to focus at. Och skriver jag på svenska fattar ingen vad jag skriver (and if i type in swedish no one will understand) I'll take a break for now, but i'll be back (like arnold).

In the screenshot i was prodding at, it has fifteen colours in the play area alone and a colour count of the entire screen is also fifteen colours so no, the rest didn't go to the status. Five, so that's already used your entire colour quotient on the A8 and there are no blue tiles, red bullets, yellow markings... You will have to make it more monochrome then the ST version, but you can still create a Xenonlike game with some fine nuances. About Xenon Then you have effects of the shots for exemple in Xenon that uses some more colour.And many time is that colour used somewhere else too. It's about to compromise a bit.

My definition of runs is obviously different to yours. I don't mean random crap or impossible code, I'm talking about the 1000s of games/demos/etc that run properly. Pete Okey, then i understand what you mean.

No, onscreen colours is the whole bloody point because it doesn't matter if you have half a million shades of green with as many stupid bloody "nuances" as you want, it's all but USELESS if you can only get four of those shades onscreen at once. Having lots of shades does not equate to being able to use lots of shades and i'll say it again because i'm a masochist and love repeating myself, the "nuances" you reckon are there aren't - colours tend to be selected based on utility rather than artistic merit. So your mission, should you decide to accept it, is still to demonstrate how right you think yourself to be with a mock-up of Xenon - don't forget that anything you get wrong (like putting too many colours in a single 4x8 pixel cell or having the status bar there or using more than 128 characters for the backgrounds) will be pointed out to you at length. Good luck and this message won't self destruct in five seconds. Why do you think that computers have big palettes? And few on screen colours? Look at the ST for exemple. Now, imagine a ST with only 16 colours in total... Goodby Xenon, you aren't possible.

If that's what you like then that's fine but you shouldn't really say everything else is messy as that's also just your opinion. I'd never tell you you were wrong for liking something like that so why is it so bad some of us prefer the more complex graphics? To me that type of stuff looks VERY early 80s and I like to see things that show how the hardware has advanced or been pushed but I wouldn't say that was wrong in any way. Pete Sad enough that's to "simple" for many. Even if it looks good. That's the type of games that C64 was built for and handles without any problems at all. The C64 was built for anything it runs. The only problems displaying graphics on the C64 are do you want more than 8 sprites on screen, or do you want to scroll a whole bitmap screen AND 2 lots of colour data. Both of those are reasonably easily overcome. Pete No, C64 was not built for anything it runs, both you and me can mess things up and overload any computer with tasks it doesn't is capable of to handle. Then we'll have to rewrite the code a bit.

There's no denying the bigger range of colours on the Atari, that would be crazy but you can't ignore colours on screen. In a lot of cases it doesn't matter how many colours you've got to choose from when you can only display a very small percentage of them without resorting to CPU usage to add colour and in a lot of cases that's still in a fairly inflexible way. One of the biggest problems is Atari artists DO seem to choose a gradient of the same colour for their game and that seems kind of crazy when you've got all those colours to choose from. The same kind of thing happened in the early 16 bit days. Artists (a lot of who were moving up from the C64) didn't know what to do with all those colours so you see a lot of games with loads of shades of grey and loads of shades of blue and little else. Pete On screen colours isn't that importand. The importand is to have a big palette to choose from. Else you can't create fine nuances of colours. Often 4 colours is enough to create a nice spread. (as in Xenon) So Xenon only has 4 colours? Pete ST could usually afford about three spreads. 4 nuances per colour = 12 colours. The rest went to the status display. The grey in Xenon is almost certain a spread of 4 greys. Then ST uses blue, orange and some more colours in Xenon.

If that's what you like then that's fine but you shouldn't really say everything else is messy as that's also just your opinion. I'd never tell you you were wrong for liking something like that so why is it so bad some of us prefer the more complex graphics? To me that type of stuff looks VERY early 80s and I like to see things that show how the hardware has advanced or been pushed but I wouldn't say that was wrong in any way. Pete Sad enough that's to "simple" for many. Even if it looks good. That's the type of games that C64 was built for and handles without any problems at all.

There's no denying the bigger range of colours on the Atari, that would be crazy but you can't ignore colours on screen. In a lot of cases it doesn't matter how many colours you've got to choose from when you can only display a very small percentage of them without resorting to CPU usage to add colour and in a lot of cases that's still in a fairly inflexible way. One of the biggest problems is Atari artists DO seem to choose a gradient of the same colour for their game and that seems kind of crazy when you've got all those colours to choose from. The same kind of thing happened in the early 16 bit days. Artists (a lot of who were moving up from the C64) didn't know what to do with all those colours so you see a lot of games with loads of shades of grey and loads of shades of blue and little else. Pete On screen colours isn't that importand. The importand is to have a big palette to choose from. Else you can't create fine nuances of colours. Often 4 colours is enough to create a nice spread. (as in Xenon)

Jeeez. One guy mentions R-Type, says he wonders if something like that can be done on Atari. We have a discussion about it and even state the C64 version is pretty dire. Now it's as if we said Atari can't do this! You really need to remember what's been said and by who in a thread if you're going to use something as the basis of an argument. Pete I posted that because one in this thread was a big fan of R-Type and didn't thought that Atari could handle such game. Then he complained at the gradients in A8 games. So it was not aimed for you or TMR. I'm sorry but it doesn't matter who it's aimed it, it's still a position you're taking. Anyway.. If you're going to compare a "clean" looking C64 game and see if it's possible on the Atari you only have to look at Paradroid. 320x res (hires) with multiple colours on screen and 320x res sprites. You just can't do that on the Atari, trust me I've been trying. You've got a choice of 1/2 the x res giving you the possibility of displaying the colours the C64 one does or keep it hires and attempt to re-colour parts of the screen using PMGs with which you don't have the flexibility of the C64s colour RAM so no doubt there would be lots of cases where it wouldn't work (I had a quick check a while ago and decided it really wasn't the way to go). Pete What i mean by "clean" is pure colours, no dithering and no messy coloring that mixes lot of colours. Clean, like in the older games for C64. Like this... Both colorful and clean.

No come on, you've been spouting off about how other people's work is a smeary mess so it's time to put your money where your mouth is; you produce a mock up of Xenon for the A8, show everybody how well it handles it. Then when we stop laughing, we'll do things like point out where you went wrong. Yeah, maybe we are... but i'll lay very good money that it doesn't look much better or worse than the existing C64 version. The main difference between the machines is that you can choose fine nuances of whatever colour on Atari, something you can't on C64. It's no problem to choose 5 fine nuances of green for exemple thanks to a big palette to choose from. On screen colours is something else. If the ST only had 16 colours in total the games would never looked like that. And even if you only use 5 colours for your game, you can still choose nuances of whatever colour.

Jeeez. One guy mentions R-Type, says he wonders if something like that can be done on Atari. We have a discussion about it and even state the C64 version is pretty dire. Now it's as if we said Atari can't do this! You really need to remember what's been said and by who in a thread if you're going to use something as the basis of an argument. Pete I posted that because one in this thread was a big fan of R-Type and didn't thought that Atari could handle such game. Then he complained at the gradients in A8 games. So it was not aimed for you or TMR.

BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING IT IN A HURRY TO MAKE MONEY. We said as much. I agree. They would have done a much better job if they had reworked the whole graphics for C64.

Which is the point Pete and i were making; those games aren't shaped by the "style" and there's no "nuances" between them, it's literally all about how fast the same game can be shovelled from one box to another. As actual games, most of the Bitmap Brothers output is sub par and Xenon 2 in particular is just crap. And i'll say it again the A8 can't do a better job. I would like to see a remake from Polen of this classic. Even if A8 only use 6 on screen colours it would look much better because of finer nuances. Who knows, maybe we are about to see a version of this game for A8.