DimensionX

http://www.atariage.com/forums/forum/12-atari-8-bit-computers/ You'll find plenty of like minded people there and really is the place for most of what's been posted in this thread (apart from the arguments but they seem to crop up everywhere). Thanks Pete, seems to be a more suitable part of the forum for me.

I'll better log out for toonight. I'm not a programmer and perhaps should post in another part of AtariAge from now on.

Because unlike you I'm willing to actually do something other than play games or post screenshots to find out which machine can do what. And maybe you are right, I can't say which one is better. That means I can't say if C64 OR Atari is. Not just "to save people attacking me with pointless arguments I'll sit on the fence". I've got to prove to myself which is the most capable machine and so far I've not finished the things I want to on Atari. With Atari, I KNOW it's got a faster CPU, I KNOW it's got full screen height hardware sprites, I KNOW it's got 128/256 colours, I KNOW it's got LMS to help with scrolling etc etc. However I KNOW lots of things on the C64 that either counter those things, are better than them or at least go some way to replicating them. So yes, I "prefer" the C64, you don't have to guts to have a preference. Much better. Now i understand why. And think it was a good explanation.

Here's some irony: I actually warmed up to the 64 as a result of watching how a handful of Atari guys behaved in a debate. Basically, if you discover you can't stand with the group you're there to stand with, what do you do? As long as people are nice. I don't care at all if i'm not right, but i do care if people call me for idiot. People who just jump in to do a quick attack. I like the colours on A8. Then people call me idiot? If you have time, read the thread and see why i'm upset.

If that's the case, why am I defending A8, or is your memory so bad you've even forgotten that from my LAST post? I'm actually coding stuff for the machine, more so than the C64, how about you? Thought not. As for "I think that C64 and Atari are great, no one is the better computer." you say that EVERY DAY then come back the next day with examples of where C64 is worse than every other computer ever built, be they A8, ST/Amiga, Megadrive, Spectrum. I "prefer" the C64, It's what I've done the most stuff on in the past. I DO NOT think the Atari is bad, I DO NOT make up crap about the C64 to try to say it's better than anything else. If I say something about the C64 you can guarantee it is a fact, not a wikipedia one but one I've learned the hard way. The same goes for facts about the A8. I may not know as much as some people, I no doubt know more than others. So now after your latest personal attack I wonder what will come as a reply to this post? More wounded victim nonsense I suppose.. So you "prefer" C64. Yet you working on Atari? Why? Why not working with the computer that you prefer? At least you were honest. And i was right. You couldn't say that no one was the better computer.

Erm.... This thread wasn't started by you. Its been pointed out numerous times that you are in the programming forum. You will be treated differently in here because the people responding to this thread know their machines of choice inside out. Arguing with a bunch of programmers when you can't explain things in a technical manner or don't understand technical discussions isn't going to get you anywhere. For example, showing us screenshots of game comparisons is pretty futile when the people you are arguing with can all make a very good educated guess or know how the tricks were done or even examine the code for the real answers. If that make you feel inferior its up to you to get up to speed, if not you have to learn to stop arguing when you can't continue the debate at the level its been taken to. Failing to do that makes you look dumb. However, if you want to "entertain" the masses please post to the A8 general forum. "I started this thread" Means that i was polite when i "started posting" in this thread. Not when i started "the thread", because i hasn't. You were one of those who just jumped in for a quick bite and then cowardly runned of to some other forum. My first comment to you was a nice one, then you gave me a negativ comment back.

No, that's your biased opinion because I don't like what YOU do. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you without posting crap like that then a forum isn't the best place for you. I continually defend the Atari on this forum (I've even done so in this very thread) BUT I DO KNOW when someone is talking out their arse about it and THAT is when I'll defend the C64 instead. Of course you won't have read any of that because you've been so busy telling everyone what to think in this thread. Admit it, you are a C64 freak who defends the machine to all costs. Because anyone can see that a mile away. I like C64 too, but only when people don't try to make it look better by attacking another computer. Like i said early, both are great computers in their own rights. Let me hear you say this? I think that C64 and Atari are great, no one is the better computer. I said it Honestly Can you? No, you can't. (how about that killer comment?)

This particular part of Atari Age isn't about discussing old games. It's not even exclusively about discussing old computers because the programming discussion can cover just about anything up to and including current generation hardware. It's about programming. And since you've been just as guilty of that as anyone else if not more so, admonishing people for doing it isn't going to hold water. I started this thread being polite. But when i got called idiot time after time by people who just jumped in for a quick attack, i kind of lost my temper. And when you don't admitted even one thing, i got tired. No matter what i showed you, it was all bad. Then i'm not mr polite anymore. But don't you see? That's EXACTLY what you did to everyone else.. Post C64 shots, no, ugly, post comparisons to Crownland, no bad game. Does everyone have to agree with you to make you happy? No i didn't. If people had been more polite, i had been soo much more nicer in this thread. I even said. Don't make me hate C64, because i really want to like ALL 8 bit computers. But no, you continued...

Just because someone jumps in with what you perceive as a personal attack doesn't mean you have to drag the rest of the forum into it. Does it not cross your mind for one second that the reason you're continually arguing with about five people is that maybe you're either wrong, being an ass or otherwise antagonising everyone? As far as learning things, from you, nothing. From other people, not much as it's all been talk about either subjective stuff or arguing. There are things about POKEY that Bryan has brought up that I know "about" but don't know the in-depth technicalities behind them and atm don't need to as I'm not writing a POKEY player. When I do need to know, I now know he's one of the people likely to divulge the secrets. Off course you don't learn anything because everything someone else thinks, is wrong, or plain bad. And everything that someone shows you, is bad. Because you already knows everything better. You defend C64 to all costs. No matter what. Well, you can continue doing that if you want. But i can tell you it's a long way to 16 bits.

This particular part of Atari Age isn't about discussing old games. It's not even exclusively about discussing old computers because the programming discussion can cover just about anything up to and including current generation hardware. It's about programming. And since you've been just as guilty of that as anyone else if not more so, admonishing people for doing it isn't going to hold water. I started this thread being polite. But when i got called idiot time after time by people who just jumped in for a quick attack, i kind of lost my temper. And when you don't admitted even one thing, i got tired. No matter what i showed you, it was all bad. Then i'm not mr polite anymore.

Of course it was a personal attack. You're making a comment about me as a person. Firstly the discussion between me and Audiophile was about a subjective matter, there is no right or wrong. So because I disagreed with Audiophile about how thin or fat the SID sounded in comparison to the POKEY it's ME who is wrong, just because you're a POKEY fan and not SID? Prove otherwise, show me when POKEY sounds fatter/thicker than SID at it's fattest and I'll be happy to change my mind but I CAN NOT BE WRONG ON A SUBJECTIVE MATTER. I'm not a pokey fan, i listen to both, often via emulators. Both sounds good in their own special way. You always see people as idiots who's not sharing your own opinion. And even if you're wrong you're trying to do everything to forget it or hide it. Then follow it up with some personal attacks. Be humble instead. Dear God stop twisting things away from what you accuse someone of. Am I wrong in disagreeing with Audiphile or not? You made that claim now back it up. In the end it was more of a missundestanding where he thought I thought he was saying SID sounded like shit when I didn't I was just disagreeing that sid ever sounds thin unless that was the intention (or from lack of know-how). Now you're accusing me of what is YOUR major fault. You continually post things about your preferences, I've most of the time disagreed with you BUT said that's fine, it's subjective that you like Atari rainbow colours over more complex C64 images BUT when I've brought FACTS to the discussion and you have none other than "but I prefer" you get all arsey as if people are trying to tell you what you should like. That's just your own insecurity. If I'm wrong I'll happily admit it, its you who is twisting and hiding to cover up your lack of knowledge. I say again YOU CAN'T BE WRONG ON A SUBJECTIVE MATTER. Even if I changed my mind I'd still be right BUT I don't attack people like you do for disagreeing. Pete, i'm the first one to admit that i'm wrong and have done that several times in this thread. But what i certanly don't like is when people jump in just for a quick personal attack, and 5-6 against one isn't fair. What have you learned under this thread that wasn't what you first thought? Nothing? Or have you?

This particular part of Atari Age is for discussing programming. This thread isn't much about programming, is it? That's irrelevant, you said "I thought that this place was about discussing retro" and this particular part of it isn't as such; admonishing other people for being off topic like that doesn't hold water if you're not on topic yourself. Eh? I mean that this place is for discussing old computers? Old games? Not to make personal attacks?

Of course it was a personal attack. You're making a comment about me as a person. Firstly the discussion between me and Audiophile was about a subjective matter, there is no right or wrong. So because I disagreed with Audiophile about how thin or fat the SID sounded in comparison to the POKEY it's ME who is wrong, just because you're a POKEY fan and not SID? Prove otherwise, show me when POKEY sounds fatter/thicker than SID at it's fattest and I'll be happy to change my mind but I CAN NOT BE WRONG ON A SUBJECTIVE MATTER. I'm not a pokey fan, i listen to both, often via emulators. Both sounds good in their own special way. You always see people as idiots who's not sharing your own opinion. And even if you're wrong you're trying to do everything to forget it or hide it. Then follow it up with some personal attacks. Be humble instead.

This particular part of Atari Age is for discussing programming. This thread isn't much about programming, is it? 40% must be totally off topic and at least 40% about retro, but not about programming. There's not much left, is it? Well, i admit that i should't be on this thread as a non programmer. Yeah, rainbows aren't really on topic are they? Didn't stop you spending a week going on about them And you are that typically person with bad selfesteem that never can be wrong. Are you that person that makes personal attacks? no, surely that's everyone else APART from you. That wasn't a personal attack, but fact. I saw it yesterday too when you answered Audiophile. You can't be wrong about anything.

This particular part of Atari Age is for discussing programming. This thread isn't much about programming, is it? 40% must be totally off topic and at least 40% about retro, but not about programming. There's not much left, is it? Well, i admit that i should't be on this thread as a non programmer. Yeah, rainbows aren't really on topic are they? Didn't stop you spending a week going on about them And you are that typically person with bad selfesteem that never can be wrong.

This particular part of Atari Age is for discussing programming. This thread isn't much about programming, is it? 40% must be totally off topic and at least 40% about retro, but not about programming. There's not much left, is it? Well, i admit that i should't be on this thread as a non programmer. Perhaps we will meet in some other forum here at AtariAge. Back to topic?

I can understand that some people might be upset or angry for things that "happened before". But why continue? I thought that this place was about discussing retro?

What BUNCH? You posted something, one guy thought you meant something you're claiming you didn't, someone else (me) had a problem with you because I'm quite incensed that you spent at least a day arguing with me about pokey 4 channels blah blah only to return and totally flip that around by saying to produce ONE fat bass sound you use TWO channels leaving (a total) of 3 including the bass, in your words "the same as SID" which was my whole point all along during your "4 channels" repetitive nonsense. That's 2 different arguments you're having based off one of your posts. There's no BUNCH. So it was because of something that happened before? Why? I didn't said anything wrong in my posting. The only thing i heard was. Admit that you're wrong. But i wasn't wrong.

It was an "oh boy, here we go again". I was pointing out that the trouble disappeared when you weren't here. Coincidence, I think not. I also posted another reply in your defense. The discussion was more interesting then. I don't take you for stupid, I take you as someone who likes to stir up shit and then act all innocent. That may have worked when you were a kid, but you've been called out for it here. So when i post something and then get a bunch of people against me, i'm the troublemaker? Even if i was right? Like today. Then it doesn't matter what i post? I'm the "trouble maker" anyway? And when people i have never seen before jumps in with some nifty comments, i'm the trouble maker?

In many old games they used two channels to play the same note slightly different tuned, to get a fat chorus effect. Many early games from English Software did that. Firechief, Captain Stickys Gold, Robin Hood etc.

And now you say (emphasis mine) :- So where is your apology for hurling insults when it was pointed out to you numerous times? Because you are already making music with the first one. Which make 3 channels in total because two of the four channels plays identical.

Here's what happens when you do that... You get two voices and some sort of phase effect depending on how you time the register writes. If they are in phase, the sound will simply be louder. If they are out of phase, the sound will be very quiet. What usually happens is you get them somewhat out of phase and the sound actually gets 'thinner' sounding. Here's a fun trick: Set one voice to frequency X and set another to X+1. You'll hear them drift in and out of phase. Often used on synthesizers. If you tune those two channels a bit different you will get a nice chorus effect.

Interesting that you think in terms of attack. It the first thing i come to think of when several people trying to really annoy a single person. Like you did in your first reply today. You thought that was an attack? Wow. It was. Then you posted another reply to tell me that i only caused trouble here. Everything was sooo nice when i wasn't here. Don't take me for stupid, please.

Okey, to make things clear. If 2 channels on the pokey chip plays the same note? The bit will not change? And the sound will be fatter on that particular note? And you still have two more channels? That means that you can get a fatter bass sound using double channels on the pokey chip and still have 2 channels left to make music with. That was my point, and that's because pokey have one channel more then SID. Then if SID sounds better or not, is irrelevant in this case.

Interesting that you think in terms of attack. Especially as the most confrontational/personally attacking person is the one complaining about it. Suddenly persons i don't even know post personal attacks in this thread.