DimensionX
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Posts posted by DimensionX
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Yep. It's beyond me. It would be much like a color blind person, or one that cannot see good detail, arguing with others on "best" machine, based on it's monochrome and low resolution attributes.I've got Marlee Matlin on the other line, she'd like to argue about SID vs POKEY.
I must ask you something.
If a person is very stupid, is he aware of it? Or must someone tell him?
If i tell you that you seems to be very stupid?
Are you aware of it then?
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...Let me put it like this Popmilo. If i'm going to play another round of Turrican, it's definitely on Snes or Megadrive. (yes i have played the c64 version several times)
Good for you!
If you haven't so far, (and if you are into that type of game of course
) you should try:Hurrican, latest full version: http://www.poke53280.de/download/download.php?id=9
T2002 with numerous levels: http://www.pekaro.de/
And if one they game like turrican appears on A8, maybe you should give it a try or two
Off course, i'm not an 8bit freak for nothing.
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From Hewson i have only seen Uridium and Tower Toppler (nebulus) on A8. And i don't know if they are remakes or real releases. But the text says Hewson.
Tower Toppler is if memory serves legitimate but only exists in beta form. Uridium has never been officially converted.
I'm sure of that you know that better then me. But the text says Hewson.
i've got a copy of Astromeda that says Uridium on the title page but isn't; text can be changed very easily with a little knowhow and a hex editor.
Nebulus was called Tower Toppler in USA and on NES. Perhaps they were released in USA only? Or betas as you said.Again with the condescending history lessons... yes the US releases of Nebulus were pretty much all called Tower Toppler (there's a C64 version as well under the same name, NTSC versions of the C64DTV come loaded with it whilst the PAL machines have Nebulus) and the A8 version was being specifically developed for NTSC since it uses artefacts to generate colours - but it was never completed and the version at Atarimania is quite clearly flagged as a beta accordingly.
Okey, thanks for the info.
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Yep. It's beyond me. It would be much like a color blind person, or one that cannot see good detail, arguing with others on "best" machine, based on it's monochrome and low resolution attributes.I've got Marlee Matlin on the other line, she'd like to argue about SID vs POKEY.
It's not Sid vs Pokey.
Perhaps you should read the thread before posting anything?
Are you as intelligent outside the forum too?
2 postings so far, and all of them wrong.
Perhaps you can find an easier thread?
Hur tappad dum får man egentligen bli?
(don't bother translate that)
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How is this 'discussion' still going on with someone who has professed to having a neurological disorder that makes him see things that aren't there and see them differently then the rest of normal humanity?
Yep. It's beyond me. It would be much like a color blind person, or one that cannot see good detail, arguing with others on "best" machine, based on it's monochrome and low resolution attributes.
And if you don't like a mess on the screen? With a green colour so overdone that you'll notice it a mile away. And the same colours game after game after game? Where dark brown is truly horrible.
How you can prefer that computer...is beyond me.
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From Hewson i have only seen Uridium and Tower Toppler (nebulus) on A8. And i don't know if they are remakes or real releases. But the text says Hewson.
Tower Toppler is if memory serves legitimate but only exists in beta form. Uridium has never been officially converted.
I'm sure of that you know that better then me. But the text says Hewson. Nebulus was called Tower Toppler in USA and on NES. Perhaps they were released in USA only? Or betas as you said.
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How is this 'discussion' still going on with someone who has professed to having a neurological disorder that makes him see things that aren't there and see them differently then the rest of normal humanity?
Well...
I think that you should get some information, before typing a reply. Synaesthesia is not a health problem, its not even classed as a disease, it´s simply extra wiring in the brain that means that your senses "connects". I can for exemple see all sounds as different 3D shapes with different layers in greyscale, i can even see the frequences in them move while most synesthetes see sounds as different colours. I see taste, feelings (emotional synaesthesia) smells and pain in colour, i see touch as rasters and lines, for exemple. I also read all text that people say, and i also read all the text of my own thoughts in different materials and typefaces. We are all born as synesthetes but most people looses the gift when the nervbanes in the brain dies and the senses gets completely separated. Animals are synesthetes too, which mean "multible senses" or "analog senses" if you prefer that label. I already played two different musical instruments at the age of 4 and have perfect pitch so you'll get some advantages being a synesthete. Speedreading is another ability i'm incredible good at.
- ‘JFK’, adult synesthete from Sweden (that's me)
http://www.creative-minds.info/index_files/Synesthesia.htm
Often people with very little synaesthesia thinks it's kind of super power. We real
synesthetes knows that it's, not, it's our lives, and we don't know any difference either. To have as much synaesthesia as i have is both good and bad, but mostly good.
Do you smell, taste, feel in color? a forum for synesthetes of all flavors to discuss how fucking cool it is to have this super power. -
After reading your replies, i have come to the same conclusion.
Atari has not 4 sound channels, because it's 8 bit
SID can produce all sounds
And so on...
Makes no sense at all, even if you changed your replies when you noticed that i'm well aware of the sound on different computers.
That just shows your ignorance and that you're a LIAR. Please show me where I said the A8 doesn't have 4 channels or that I said SID can produce all sounds.
I've not changed replies or my mind on what I said earlier because what I said is FACT, your lack of knowledge and boiling down which machine is better to 4 is bigger than 3 so 4 is better proves what I've thought all along, no matter your protestations you are a FANBOY.
Hrrm
you have to combine 2 channels to form one 16 bit one, therefore to get 16 bit accurate (ie, in tune, something quite important with music) notes you really only have 2 channelsSID has 3 physical channels, Pokey has 4 physical channels, the "bit" of them is irrelevant to the number of physical channels.Please don't start the 4 vs 3 again. Yes, physical channels, 4 vs 3, but you can't brush aside the bits like that, 16 bit is a MASSIVE difference to 8 bits for accuracy, 65536/256 so saying it doesn't matter when you're trying to get a note in tune and an 8 bit channel can't manage it means either you're happy with out of tune music or you're just trying to brush it under the carpet.Bit has nothing to do with the number of channels.
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...Some people comes up with games as Turrican. Games that runs much better on powerful hardware, typical action shoot'em ups in the spirit of games like Contra III. Games that should have mighty explosions, awesome sound and parallax scrolling. Hewson did the opposite and actually managed to create some real playable shooters perfectly suited for 8bit computers. Cybernoid, Exolon and Zynaps.
Turrican is Manfred Trenz's original C64 masterpiece. It runs GREAT on it. There is not much that I would add to it to make it better. It has mighty explosions, awesome sound and parallax scrolling
Of course it can look better on much more powerfull hardware, but this thread is called "Commodore 64 vs Atari 800Xl", and its in Programming section of AA.
So main point when mentioning c64s Turrican was that it is very difficult (if not impossible) to come close to it on A8.
Cybernoid looks great, hard as hell...
Exolon looks great, plays tough, little boring...
Zynaps - great game, excellent on C64 and Spectrum
ps. none of these exists on A8 as much as I know ?
Agree, this thread is about A8 vs C64.
From Hewson i have only seen Uridium and Tower Toppler (nebulus) on A8. And i don't know if they are remakes or real releases. But the text says Hewson.
Let me put it like this Popmilo. If i'm going to play another round of Turrican, it's definitely on Snes or Megadrive. (yes i have played the c64 version several times)
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Doctor: "I'm sorry sir, but you're minimally dead"
Patient: *beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep*
Doctor: "Ah"
Some people just don't understand irony...
Some people just can't admit when they're wrong...
After reading your replies, i have come to the same conclusion.
Atari has not 4 sound channels, because it's 8 bit
SID can produce all sounds
And so on...
Makes no sense at all, even if you changed your replies when you noticed that i'm well aware of the sound on different computers.
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@TMR
I should have answered you, if you have posted something sensible instead of just trying to provoke all the time. It don't feels that revarding to answer someone who sees Project X as the same game as Dangun Feveron and the other games that i posted, in a "loose sense". And use that poor excuse to not make a sensible comment.
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... But if you want real action try Dangun Feveron or DoDonpachi on MAME.
Loved the DoDonpachi. Looks like Raiden which is one of the best for me.
And to use your words: Dangun Feveron is to 'messy' for me
Not messy, perhaps to intensive. The graphics (for real not on youtube) is very clean and very well drawn. But it's a lot of sprites on screen at the same time and you really need split vision to be able to beat this game.
I would like to see this on an Amiga.
The Genesis version of Contra.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pslQIzqjCS0
Want better quality? That can be done by downloading the movie here. The cinepack version is 705 MB
http://www.archive.org/details/Longplay-Contra-Hardcorps_GEN
Some people comes up with games as Turrican. Games that runs much better on powerful hardware, typical action shoot'em ups in the spirit of games like Contra III. Games that should have mighty explosions, awesome sound and parallax scrolling. Hewson did the opposite and actually managed to create some real playable shooters perfectly suited for 8bit computers. Cybernoid, Exolon and Zynaps.
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Doctor: "I'm sorry sir, but you're minimally dead"
Patient: *beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep*
Doctor: "Ah"
Some people just don't understand irony...
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Posting pics from Amiga/ST/Megadrive etc whenever someone mentions a C64 game just shows the attitude of C64 = crap again. Nobody posts 16bit games to counter your Atari pictures, they're a different generation..
Ah.. hang on a sec, i bet that's why he's saying Mega Turrican is best! Anyone who has played all three games (Mega Turrican is Turrican 3 on the Amiga) knows that Turrican 2 is the best of them but that one started life as a C64 game so obviously he can't let himself say it's good or anything...
Megadrive have some awesome good action shooters like Mega Turrican, Gunstar Heroes and Contra Hardcorps. Games like that is often much better on more powerful hardware. Gunstar Heroes, perhaps the best action shooter ever made with it's intense gameplay. Made by Treasure who worked for Konami and wrote Contra III (super probotector) for Snes just before they left Konami to start their own company.
I think that Project X on Amiga was a good shoot'em up. But if you want real action try Dangun Feveron or DoDonpachi on MAME.
In The Hunt and Daruis Gaiden is great shoot'em ups too.
On A8 i prefer Millipede.
On Amiga i would recommend most games from Team 17 as the Alien Breed series.
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LOL!! "minimal dithering".
DimensionX, it's either dithered, or it isn't. Come on man!
No i don't call that for dithering, that's why i posted a reply like that.
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If you want a real good version of Turrican. Try this one....
Thanks for info. I am turrican freak
so I think I played all of them, or will I love Super turrican on Nes. That is my favorite because of its great gameplay.
Mega Turrican on Megadrive is even a bit better. Looks superb and plays superb.
If you use Windows?
Try Gens (a real good megadrive emulator)
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That's not "dithered" but "antialized"
No, it's quite clearly dithered at the transition between the green landscape and green building. Look:
That was not hat i meant. I meant the grey antializing at the bottom. But i would hardly call the green for dithering. Perhaps minimal dithering in that case.
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...If you look at the screenshot at the bottom. It's at least 4 different greens on screen even if this game has simple graphics. Next level, simply choose a different palette that brings variation to your game.
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The point isn't to put 16 on screen colours in the game all the time. The point is to be able to switch between lots of different colours to bring variation to your game.
And thank you for a honest opinion Popmilo.
Variations, next level: we need variations inside one level, inside one screen, inside one frame of animation.
Each level in few shades of new color is not enough.
Lets look at these:
This is screenshot of C64s turrican:
It has yellow, red,black, white, two greys, blue ~ 7 colors. So its not 16. But it is 2 more than 5. And what ever design I tried I always miss that few colors to make it look ok. Otherwise some part of screen always looks odd.
I think that is why I still try. If that difference was 8 colors than I would realize its impossible, but I think that 1 or two colors gap can be overcome somehow (crownland showed one way of doing that, but that one still has to solve displaying more than few sprites on screen at once).
I don't know your knowledge about programming but just consider the fact that it took years to develop game like crownland on A8 and compare it to the time needed to produce game in same style on c64 which is around few months.
That is why Im focused on pure 4 shade screen mode like this, because its easy enough to develop for, everything important for game can be presented in 'clean' way and no restrictions beyond obvious 4 colors
This is taken from Gameboys version - 4 shades of grey and 160x144 resolution - roughly what you can get on A8 for a fast action game like turrican is on C64:
Or maybe one of the better atari games like this:
Maybe after few years of development I will be able to add more colors to a game like that but who knows if all the time in the world is enough for that?
If you want a real good version of Turrican. Try this one.
PNG, 652x492px, 168 KB (0.16 MB)Games such Turrican is so much better on more powerful hardware that really makes games like Turrican shine.
I plays as good at it looks too.
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It might stop the building being green too...
Indeed
Hmm... that dithered bit in the Fortress Underground screenshot, isn't that "unclean"?!
This is my exact point about the anti-Crownland mindset, or rather the mind that can't be bothered to even go 10% of the way he did designing Crownland.
Just 2 colours used for a switch on a DLI and you can STILL have most of that green AND a different building colour and soil and.... Nobody seems willing to do it but they're quite happy to use even more CPU time showing an ugly rainbow behind stuff.
Well, you know i agree with that already... my current project is based on how Red Max worked on the A8 and that's a remarkably minimal bit of design.
That's not "dithered" but "antialized"
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If you put together shades instead it will look much more clean. Like in many games for ST. If you plan to use different colours, ...
...
The point isn't to put 16 on screen colours in the game all the time. The point is to be able to switch between lots of different colours to bring variation to your game.
agree 100% that many shades of fewer colours look best ( and yes I am a fan of the 2 main shading range style seen in Paradroid or the bitmap brothers games)
the diagram earlier from "way of the pixel" shows why the C64 palette is an effective compromise
Really these 8bit machines can only display 3 shades of something at the same time in object detail.
The C64's palette & sprites/attributes allows for a lot of different ramps this way, allowing player/enemies & different background elements (e.g. walls vs backdrop) to be seperated.
Some 'hue rotation' approximating colours is necessary for C64 these ramps, sure.. but thats not a problem.
in real life, its very rare to see pure shades of a single colour... brighter areas would be lit by lightsources (e.g. yellow sun); darker areas would be lit by reflected ambient light (e.g. blue sky, earthtones in landscape)
So for cartoony game graphics, its fine to just have slightly different hues for the highlight & mid-tones.. & white is usually used for highlights.
From what i've seen on the A8 with its 5 color backgrounds, you need to make exactly the same compromise if you want a background with distinctly coloured elements.
You can use black, white, and a generic 'dark' color as the main 3 colours.. then have 2 distinct 'mid-tones' .. giving you 2 distinct ramps, only one of which can be shades of a single color.
Most likely you'd make the dark shade a different hue halfway between the hue of the two mid-tones you wanted,or you could have 3 pure shades and one different colour ramp thats futher off.
Thanks for explaining.
ST was quite good at displaying cartoon graphics because cartoons often use very few colours but a certain style where some of the colours often is being used as shadows.
PNG, 652x836px, 49 KB (0.05 MB) -
The difference is that a forest has many many nuances of green and is always change unlike C64's static green.
Many years drawing graphics on C64 I hated lack of "good green"... There are two greens and both are too bright. And one in between of those two would be nice...
But there were only few combinations that Vic engineers could work with, and they chose these so I learned to live with them.
So, yes you could make finer shades of green on A8 in a game.... - If you would use only green in a game...
Try making a game on A8 that has grass, rock, earth, wood, metal, sky, lasers - and all of those on same screen.
And you get to choose 5 colors from 128.
Tell me: How many shades of green can you fit in those 5 colors, and still manage to present that other stuff reasonably ?
It's not about rainbows, it's about bigger palette, more colours and more variation in the games.
I see much much much more variations in C64 games than in A8 games. If your reasoning about palette is correct why is that so?
And, Flimbo's Quest looks messy, even on Atari ST. I prefer clean coloursettings.
I guess you are refering to use of too many colors on screen at once? And shades and gradients and stuff like that ?
You like clean graphics like this more ?
Guess what? Not possible on A8...
That is why coding for A8 is such delight...
Trying to squeeze that one more color from that big palette onto the screen to make something that hasn't been made before.
If you try to mix too many different colours, it will in most cases looks messy. If you put together shades instead it will look much more clean. Like in many games for ST. If you plan to use different colours, don't put them in the same places if you want a clean look of your game. It's always better to use few colours then to mess things up by putting too many colours in the same places.
If you look at the screenshot at the bottom. It's at least 4 different greens on screen even if this game has simple graphics. Next level, simply choose a different palette that brings variation to your game.
PNG, 336x492px, 9 KB (0.01 MB)The point isn't to put 16 on screen colours in the game all the time. The point is to be able to switch between lots of different colours to bring variation to your game.
And thank you for a honest opinion Popmilo.
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Well popmilo, it's the typical C64 colours that we all have seen so many times before. You can't really miss them, can you? Especially not light green and dark brown because they are way to dominant compared to the other colours in the palette. That's a shame because that makes them stands out in just about every game. Look at 100 different C64 games and you'll know what i'm talking about. Light green is the most dominant of them all. I watched a YT clip of the 100 best C64 games. My reaction was. Aaah, green, more green, that's green, there's green again. They could have been choosen the palette to be more neutral and equal. Green is always way to dominant, dark brown too.
Try it yourself
Ok. Try this:
Is that colorfull enough and has parallax scrolling ?
That kind of look and feel is IMPOSSIBLE on A8.
p.s.And just to point out, that green that you see sometimes that is "grass" or "leaves" and its ment to be green. And yeah if level is named forest, of course there's gonna be lots of it.
C64's biggest drawback is it's limited palette. Perhaps it makes C64 good at certain things, but not in the colour area for sure.
I agree. But I would still choose those 16 colors almost anywhere on the screen than 128 color rainbows....
The difference is that a forest has many many nuances of green and is always change unlike C64's static green.
It's not about rainbows, it's about bigger palette, more colours and more variation in the games.
And, Flimbo's Quest looks messy, even on Atari ST. I prefer clean coloursettings.
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@DimensionX: Have we been playing the same game as you ?
Take a look at this video of Mayhem:
Did you know that you have to collect enough stars and take them to the dragon to return happiness to the world ?
That is what happens at 2m:40s.
Don't tell me those are not beautifull colors and that there are no rainbows ?
Well popmilo, it's the typical C64 colours that we all have seen so many times before. You can't really miss them, can you? Especially not light green and dark brown because they are way to dominant compared to the other colours in the palette. That's a shame because that makes them stands out in just about every game. Look at 100 different C64 games and you'll know what i'm talking about. Light green is the most dominant of them all. I watched a YT clip of the 100 best C64 games. My reaction was. Aaah, green, more green, that's green, there's green again. They could have been choosen the palette to be more neutral and equal. Green is always way to dominant, dark brown too.
Try it yourself
C64's biggest drawback is it's limited palette. Perhaps it makes C64 good at certain things, but not in the colour area for sure.
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A Paradroid fan?
Seen the ST version?
PNG, 984x1472px, 259 KB (0.25 MB)Yes, ugly as all hell, no horizontal scrolling, loses the whole beautiful simplicity of the C64 original. blehhh!
Pete
To work with some few spreads is perfect on the ST. That's why Bitmap Brothers games looks so good.
imho it looks AWFUL.
I know that you think so. Think about that for a while.
Now i'm better log out for tonight.
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Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl
in Programming
Posted · Edited by DimensionX
4 channels are 4 channels, no matter what bit
3 channels are 3 channels, no matter what bit
The only thing was about number of physical channels, nothing else.