Jagasian

You are not in the wrong, in any way, and I think everybody can agree that the work that you've done so far (and I hope continue to do with other games), is very informative for NES fans. Some people will claim that there is not enough evidence to show that all NOACs are the same, which is why it would be worthwhile to first do research on finding specific reproducible, easily quantified issues with the Yobo... and then somebody could lend you a NEX to see if those same issues manifest themselves on the NEX. If the NEX has the same problems as the Yobo, then it is safe to conclude that they both use the same chip. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it is most likely a duck. Though, really, I think the issue of the NEX is a smaller issue. It is a valuable contribution to classic gaming to have a screenshot comparison of NES versus NOAC, so that other people can make up their own decision as to whether a NOAC based clone is worth their money. A "compatibility list" such as Messiah has only tells us if games boot or not. It doesn't tell us if they are playable, have the right colors, sounds, etc. But a "will at least boot" list and examples of incorrect colors, sounds, and other glitches puts more tangible information out there for everybody. That is a good thing.

I found pictures, finally. The part# is HVC-008: http://www1.plala.or.jp/evolution/data.html http://www.butsuyoku.net/shokugan/famicom_namco/

I've seen pictures of the Famicom cassette tape drive on the net, but I can't seem to find them right now. It is themed similarly to the Family Basic Keyboard and the original Famicom itself, i.e., read and white. You could save your Family Basic programs to tape, and supposedly you could also save your custom Excite Bike tracks to tape too. The Famicom also have the Famicom Disk System, which used a kind of floppy for games. They could be written to too.

Classy. As a retailer that really warms my heart. I'm sure the many other game store owners who hang out here find your attitude just as revealing as to your character. 1010686[/snapback] OK, only return the NEX for a full refund if it turns out to be incompatible with games that Messiah lists as being compatible. Of course, take screenshots as proof, along with a means of reproducing the incompatibility. Is there something wrong with getting a full refund for a product that doesn't work as advertised? Please explain how there is something wrong with that? If they claim that certain games are compatible on their site, then an implicit contract exists where money is exchanged for the product as advertised. If testing shows that the provided product is not as advertised, that is, games listed as compatible are unplayable... there is nothing wrong with returning for a full refund. As a consumer, it warms my heart knowing that a retailer is OK with false advertising.

In programmer's perspectives, it's a console if it doesn't have read-write storage (cassette, floppies, hard disc) and a keyboard, so yes... Besides, the Game Gear and the SEGA Master System are practically identical. 1010728[/snapback] I think that is a problematic definition because battery backed NV-SRAM is a form of non-volatile read-write storage, and the NES, SNES, and Genesis used carts with such storage. Furthermore, the Japanese version of the NES, the Famicom, had a cassette tape drive for storage and a keyboard (the Family Basic Keyboard). In fact, the prototype for the NES had NES versions of the keyboard and tape drive. Modern consoles from the 32-bit generation onward all have had read-write storage in the form of NV-SRAM or flash RAM, as well as some form of a keyboard. Hence according to your definition, the Playstation, Xbox, N64, Xbox 360, etc... are also not considered to be consoles. I think a better definition of a console is a piece of electronics hardware intended primarily for running games. This distingishes between general purpose PCs and game oriented consoles.

Since the NEX can be returned for a refund, you could always buy a NEX, take a bunch of screenshots with your setup, and then return it for a full refund. An interesting thing to note is that even emulators as good as FCE Ultra (which ranks behind Nestopia and Nintendulator in accuracy) do a better job than NOAC based clones. I guess that reflects well on emulators, which have been improving constantly for the past 10 years, but it also reflects badly on the NOAC, which has remained the same for the past 10 years.

Good call. Maybe you could use your first post in that thread to list other people's screenshots once they take them? That way we can have one master list, all in one clean post. NES vs NOAC, lets get ready to rumble!

Great job. The screenshots turned out better than I thought. Can you give us some details on the computer hardware and software you used to take the screenshots? Once you've seen one NOAC, you've seen them all... I hope that turns out to be wrong in the future, but as things stand now, they all seem to be crap. At best, NOACs seem to have incorrect colors and "off" music. Then there are games that are down right glitchy like Gauntlet, as your screenshots demonstrate, and even worse, there are the games that don't run at all. With regards to Zelda, I suggest using the maps and guides here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/game/563433.html The Gaunlet and Zelda bugs make me wonder how many NES games have glitches that don't immediately show up during the first few minutes of playing a game. Imagine playing hours into a classic NES game only to find out that a key part of the game is not playable on your unlicensed NES clone. I won't listen to the audio files, as I have heard the horrors of NOAC audio. If your site doesn't get too many hits in the next few days though, I'll take a listen. If you have Pirates, it is worth checking out to see if it has garbled graphics or not, in the towns. It is a great game, btw. One of the NES's best.

The lockout chip is the enemy within your NES. What exactly does the NWC cart need from the lockout chip, for the cart to run correctly? Just in case I ever get my hands on a NWC cart and all

I don't have precise numbers on how reliable my repair method is, as I really haven't approached the situation in a scientific manner. Instead, I just did what seemed to work. I use a bright light to look at the grime build up on the pins and I "eye" the amount of bending that pins need. These methods are what I use to get rid of the grime and bend the pins back into shape. I am sure that other people have different methods. However, like I have said, there is no doubt that "fixing" a toaster without replacing the pin connector involves: 1. disable the lockout chip 2. clean the 72-pin connector's pins on the cart end 3. bend the 72-pin connector's pins on the cart end 4. clean your game cart's contacts Assuming you are not replacing the connector, there is no debate with that general list. How you accomplish each of those points is debatable. Another debatable topic is whether it is best to replace a connector with a new, third party part or simply refurb the original Nintendo made connector. I've heard many horror stories about bad third party connectors, which gives me the impression that its best to refurb the connector as opposed to replace it. The exception is, of course, if you can get an official Nintendo made 72-pin connector replacement part. Some guy at the DP forums had a box of them at one point. That, is the ideal thing to go for, but supplies are limited. I'll state a bit of advice again: it is easy to over bend those pins. You should barely be able to notice any visual difference in the pin after bending it, otherwise you have bent it too far, in my opinion. The difference is a perfect fit tightness versus an overly tight connector. It really isn't that bad to have an overly tight connector, but I think it will cause more wear and tear on the carts and the connector in the long run.

I posted some links for sellers of pure alcohol over at the Digitpress forums. I give ya a link to the thread, but I have been banned from their forums. Just search for "isopropyl" and look for my posts. One of them has the goods. You can get a good sized bottle of it for under $10 (USD).

I've heard that erasers can be too abrasive and cause damage to a PCB. Then again, I've heard that pure alcohol can also damage a PCB, so I am not sure what to believe.

The lockout chip only does one thing: it prevents games from booting during powerup. Hence disabling it means that you eliminate one of the possible things that could keep your game from running. Nintendo's intent was to prevent unlicensed games from running on the NES, as licensed games have a cart-side lockout chip that communicates with the system-side lockout chip during boot. If the system-side chip does not like the communication that it gets from the cart-side chip, then it causes the system to reset over and over again. Some people call this "blinking". Blinking can happen for several reasons: 1. the pins that connect the two lockout chips have a bad connection due to dust, dirt, grime, or loose pins 2. the cart is unlicensed and the system-side lockout chip notices this Note that one of these cases means that licensed games don't run, and the other means that unlicensed games don't run. Either way, disabling the lockout chip means more reliability.

My first was the Atari 2600, which I got when I was 3. I was born and bread on the 2600, but quickly became a Nintendo fanboy with the NES a few years later. The 2600 still owns a special place in my heart though

What is the PCB dirty with? What parts of the PCB are dirty? The only chemicals I use on actual PCBs are: 1. 99% pure anhydrous isopropyl alcohol 2. Stabilant 22 3. Caig DeOxit Out of those 3, the #1 and #3 are the only chemicals useful for cleaning. Printed circuit boards are a sandwich of many layers of materials, so you have to be careful with the chemicals that you use on a PCB. Caig makes a bunch of chemicals that are supposed to be safe to use for cleaning circuit boards: http://www.caig.com/

By the way, I am not having much luck with my TV capture card and getting it to work under Linux. The only copy of Windows that I have is an old copy of Windows 98. Maybe I will have to give that a try, but only as a last resort.

I forgot to mention in my list that I soak my toaster's springs in the WD40 too, overnight, and then rinse them with pure alcohol. Maybe it is just me, but it seems to decrease the amount of squeeking when raising or lowering a cart. It doesn't effect system reliability, but it makes it sound "newer". We can all agree on the following, right? 1. disable the lockout chip 2. clean the 72-pin connector's pins on the cart end 3. bend the 72-pin connector's pins on the cart end 4. clean your game cart's contacts As long as all four of those things are done correctly using whatever means (as long as they "work"), is a sure-fire way to get your NES working 100%. With regards to #2, sometimes a connector's pins are very heavily encrusted. I think that is why some people find it useful to use an abrasive like sand paper, or a detergent like WD40.

Most people don't believe that a NOAC based clone differs much from a real NES, other than the roughly 40 NES games that don't even run on a NOAC system. Hence this is a fact finding project to help compare and contrast a real NES versus NOAC based clones. Not everybody has a NEX, not everybody has a Yobo, but many people have at least some NOAC based clone, as well as a real NES. It will also be interesting to see how each clone differs from the others. Will the $15 clones be vastly inferior to the $60 clones? On the topic of what games to test, "Pirates!" is a good choice, as the graphical window when in town is sometimes messed up on clones/emulators.

Remember to use http://www.imageshack.us/ for posting your pictures.

I fully understand the dangers of WD40 on circuit boards, which is why my directions state to NEVER let it get on the printed circuit board (instead just use the compressed air and alcohol for cleaning the mother board). However, I have found that WD40 is great for its detergent effects on the 72-pin connector, and I've found that the left over residue after a good soak is stripped off with the pure alcohol. It was quite impressive actually, as WD40 seems to be impossible to remove from one's hands. Using pure alcohol on your hands doesn't feel good either though. I've tried all other contacts cleaners on the 72-pin connector, but none of them do a good job of loosening up built up grime on the cart end of the connector. A WD40 soak does seem a bit extreme, but it works great a stripping away grime. But yeah, its bad for printed circuit boards, which is what the main part of the NES system and games are made out of. So you will definitely want to rinse any WD40 residue off, but then again, the pure alcohol does a really great job at just that. So what is wrong with using WD40 to strip away the grime on a pin connector, if the WD40 residue is completely removed via a pure alcohol shower?

The toaster NES is the ideal system for playing NES games. For many years, unlicensed/pirate clones of the Famicom and NES have been made, and only recently have they caught on as a means of "replacing" your broken NES. A much better solution is to fix your broken NES. The end result is much nicer, trust me. Everyone of your NES games will work, with perfect audio and video. No game incompatibilties, no off tune sounds, no off colors, no missing sounds, and no messed up glitches. Just pure NES fun as you remember it back it in the 80s and early 90s. Every game cart will boot the first time you insert it into the system and power it on! Below is the method that I use to fix my toaster NES systems. Yes, I have several. People tend to part with their toaster NES systems because they think they are broken, when all they need is some maintenance after 20 years of service. Anyway, this method is sure to make your NES as good as it was when you first got it new back in the 1980s. It takes time and patience, but if done right, you should only have to do this once every 5 to 10 years. A few notes on the supplies that I use. First note that I do not use a replacement 72-pin connector. The unlicensed, non-Nintendo 72-pin connector replacement parts are known to be of poor quality and they are extremely tight, making game cart insertion and removal difficult. They also tend to break easily. The original 72-pin connector is the ideal choice, assuming it has been restored, which is what my method aims at: return your official connector to the perfect working condition that it was originally in when your NES was new. The three main ingredients that I use are... 1. WD40: found in any hardware store in a spray can 2. 99% pure anhydrous isopropyl alcohol: can be ordered off of the web, it is rubbing alcohol without any water in it. It is cheap, so it is worth going through the trouble to buy a larger bottle, which should last a life time, for game maintenance at least. 3. Stabilant 22: can be ordered off of the web. It is expensive, but it is the magic ingredient for AV electronics. It is a contact enhancer used in computers, AV equipment, and even automobiles. It prevents contacts from corroding, and it also improves the electrical connection. Some people call it liquid solder. Now for the steps on fixing your NES. Please use Google to search for details on the specifics of some of these steps, such as disabling the lockout chip, disassembling the NES, and bending the pins of the 72-pin connector. 0. Disassemble your NES and use a can of compressed air to blow the dust off of everything, and use warm water, hand dish washing soap, and a sponge to hand wash the plastic outer shell of the system. Be very careful with the stickers on the bottom half. If it isn't dirty, you can skip this. I typically just wash the top half, which tends to get real dirty. Use your kitchen sink's spray hose gun to jet rinse everything. Then towel it dry. 1. Disable the lockout chip. 2. Place the 72-pin connector in a bowl filled with WD40. One full can of WD40 should be enough. Make sure that the entire 72-pin connector is covered. Let it soak for 24 hours. 3. Meanwhile, use dampen a white paper towel with WD40 and wipe down the two metal shielding pieces, as well as the metal parts of the AV and power module on the NES mother board. Wipe in the WD40 and repeat over and over again until the components are clean and shiney. Never use too much WD40, as you don't want to get any of it on the circuit board parts. Use a clean, dry paper towel to wipe off all excess WD40 from the components you just treated. Use another paper towel, this time dampened in 99% pure anhydrous isopropyl alcohol to wipe clean the metal parts. Use enough alcohol and enough paper towels until the metal components are no longer greasy. 4. Use another paperl towel soaked in 99% pure anhydrous isopropyl alcohol and wipe the contacts on the mother board that connect to the 72-pin connector. Do NOT use WD40 on the mother board or its contacts. Repeat cleaning the contacts until no more grime comes off. You can also use q-tips dipped in the alcohol to brush clean the contacts. 5. Once the 72-pin connector is done soaking, remove it from the bowl and dry it off using paper towels. Next, pour the pure alcohol over the 72-pin connector and then dry with paper towels, repeating until all WD40 residue is removed. 6. Cover an old credit card with a layer of paper towel, trimmed to fit nicely, and moisten the paper towel with pure alcohol. Then insert it into the 72-pin connector as if it were a game cart. Repeat multiple times for both ends of the connector, until the pins are nice and clean. Use a bright light to see grime built up on the game cart end of the connector. Replace the paper towel once it becomes too dirty or when it starts to break apart. Be careful not to let pieces of paper towel come loose inside the connector. 7. Rinse the 72-pin connector again with pure alcohol, towel dry, and then use a can of compressed air to remove any dust or lint that gets on the connector due to the towels. 8. Using a clean, very small flat head screw driver, bend each pin on the game cart end of the connector up by a milimeter. You can bend them up more, if you like, but don't get carried away, as you can damage the connector. Also, the more you bend them up, the tighter the connection will be when putting a game into the system. A milimeter of bending is all that is needed to get a nice balance between easy game insertion and removal, along with zero problems getting a game to run. Your flat head screw driver should be small enough to fit the head vertically alongside a pin, between the metal of the pin and the plastic spacer to the right hand side of the pin. Slide the screw driver's head under the pin by rotating the screw driver a very slight bit in the clockwise direction (holding the 72-pin connector in the position that it would be in when inserted in the system). The more you rotate the screw driver, the more you will be bending the pin upward. Remember, just a milimeter of bending is all that is needed. Too much will make your connector too tight. 9. Place a nice even layer of Stabilant 22 on the mother board's contacts, on both sides, and also squirt it into the cable plugs that attach to the mother board for the power/reset buttons and controller ports. 10. Reassemble the system. 11. Take a clean game cart and squirt an ample amount of Stabilant 22 on its contacts. Then place it in and out of the cart port, so as to help apply Stabilant 22 to the actual 72-pin connector. 12. Before attaching your RCA AV cables, cover the AV ports on the NES with Stabilant 22. Also cover the male part of the RCA cables with Stabilant 22, and then insert the cables into and out of the AV ports, so as to help apply Stabilant 22 inside the AV ports. 13. Regularly clean all of your game cart contacts using q-tips dipped in pure alcohol. Keep your carts in sleeves and in storage when not playing them. Try to score an official NES system cover off of Ebay, to keep dust off of your NES system when not playing it. I keep my system covered even when I am playing it. It isn't like the NES overheats or anything.

First person to post high quality side-by-side screenshots of a toaster versus a NEX wins a prize! I just got myself a TV tuner card, but I only run Linux, so it is going to take me some time to figure out how to make it work. I think I might be missing some cables needed for RCA composite input... either that or my card only supports RF input! Yuck. I'll make this test even more general and compare a toaster versus emulation too. I'll use my Xbox and the FCE Ultra emulator on it. I've done a comparison myself, without taking screenshots, and the toaster looks allot better because the image is blury on the Xbox and the colors are off. I'll make a prediction and list what I think the best to worst list would look like: 1. toaster NES 2. FCE Ultra emulator on Xbox 3. Yobo aka Neofami 4. NEX 5. other misc unlicensed clones ...of course, I am leaving out the official clones, such as the top loader... I used to have one, but lost it during a move. Maybe one of the movers was a NES fanatic and decided to get a free top loader for himself. I lost it during the peak of top loader fanaticism... before people realized that it had terrible video quality.

Did you ever read my posts to this thread? My posts, in summary, are exactly the same as your post. So why are you even attacking me? I said that I supported Lacan's attempt to objectively measure the difference, but recommended a TV capture card instead of a digital camera. I also suggested that this not be about real NES versus NEX, but instead it should be a comparison of real NES versus unlicensed clones (NEX, Yobo, and others). That way everybody can judge for themselves just how bad NOAC based clones really are. Omne was the one that started to attack Lacan and other people in this thread. In fact, Omne started to attack Lacan ever since he changed his opinion on the NEX, from positive to negative. Just because I was the whistleblower on the NEX, from since the NEX was first announced, doesn't mean that I am somehow in the wrong. In fact, time and time again, the facts have proven me to be right. I am just like Lacan, in the sense that when I pointed out the facts, which didn't reflect in a positive manner on the NEX, I was attacked. Look for yourself, read the threads. It happened to me, it is happening to Lacan, and it has happened to others.

How rare is this? One of a kind rare?

So Digitpress is censoring discussion of the NEX again? Talk about a conflict of interest.