Chilly Willy
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Posts posted by Chilly Willy
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...and, just where would someone get a two year-old 'mobo'?
There are lots of places online where you can get refurbished mobos for nearly any computer. They usually stick their own stickers on the boards to let you know when it was worked on. That's what I'm referring to when speaking of computers that clearly haven't been made in 20 years.
Do you have any instances where IC products are at EOL due to chip degradation in anything, anywhere? Mass failures of 2114s?Chips haven't been around long enough for them to be bad just while sitting in a bin. The 2 to 20 years I mentioned was for ACTIVE systems (depending on how actively they are used). I said 100 years was doubtful sitting in a bin, so maybe we'll see in another 60 to 80 years if I'm right on that.
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Also, it's not in the Myth series, but their PC Engine flash cart is the best on the market.
I like Neo products, they're very capable even if there are some caveats. You touched on most of them, but I'd also point out that the programmer app is closed source and Windows only. I know madmonkey was working on an open source programmer, but last I checked it was for the MD Myth only. Has anything changed there?
I'm not 100% on it as I've been spending all my time on the menus, but I know it has N64 support, and I THINK it has SNES support. The MD Myth allowed SMS games because of the built in PBC, so the SMS Myth uses the MD Myth support for itself - you simply pick the SMS menu instead of the MD menu.
BTW, I couldn't recommend Myth products without the amazing amount of work you, Conle, madmonkey, and others have put it. The new menus have really made these products worth having. Thanks!You're welcome... and don't forget mic! He did the lion's share of the work on the SNES Myth menu. The Myth products aren't for everyone, especially at the prices they run. I tend to think more people would do well with the Everdrive series; they're probably the best product for the price. However, if you have the money and need certain features (features some of us have worked hard to provide), the Myth series might be for you. It's all a matter of knowing what you want versus what is available at what price.
And thanks for reminding me about the PCE NeoFlash cards - I forgot about them since they're not part of the Myth series and don't have one... yet.
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Ya know.. The problem with a WHOLE LOT of engineers (of which you are an excellent example) is that your head is so crammed full of theory, that when you get where the "rubber meets the road" you're unable to think outside of what you think you know as fact. This is why all of your designs have to go through numerous testing phases.. If what you say you KNOW was 100% applicable in real-world conditions, all of your designs would just work, exactly as you envisioned them and never need any testing, or revision..
What I said is based on EXPERIENCE, not theory. I've seen enough "never been opened in 20 years" boxes that have parts with 2 year-old manufacturer's dates to take any claims of 20 years 24/7 usage with a grain of salt.
I know the guy with the C=64 personally. I believe what he says.. Hes not an unreliable idiot. I'm not gonna ask him to prove anything to you. I've seen the machine, back then, and now. I also believe what Fox-1 says about his experience with ATARIs running BBSes.I say, prove it failed. You have no proof. SO without proof, having never seen the object in question, you should not definitively state that it did fail.
You don't have to be an unreliable idiot to tell your friends a Whopper. And you should know it's impossible to prove a negative, but easy to prove a positive - just take a photo of the mobo so that the manufacturer's date is clear.
And I'll tell you something else. If you do not realize that the WILL OF GOD is the most powerful force in the universe, then you are a REALLY piss poor engineer, and you don't qualify to even make coffee for the best/brightest scientific minds in the world..DO you think it's impossible that GOD WILLED that particular C=64 to last as long as it did? If you admit this is possible, then do you have any reason to believe that he didn't?
Well, yes, if it's the Will of God that a computer lasts 20+ years running 24/7, it's certainly possible, but I'll still want photos showing those chips really are 20 years old and not a 2 year-old mobo someone stuck in the shell when no one was looking. In God we trust - all others pay in advance.
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I know of one C=64 that ran a BBS 24/7 from 1987 through 2007.. and the only "failures" during that time were when the hardisk crapped out.. He had to replace it several times..
Seems to me you are the one who needs to separate fiction from reality.. What some professor told you (based on theory, probability, and his knowledge/experience) and what DOES happen in the real world in SPECIFIC INSTANCES are two EXTREMELY different things..
I saw in the paper one time, that they finally changed a lightbulb in a farmhouse that had been burning since the 1930s.. There was no switch in the circuit.. it was hard wired, and had been burning constantly.. Industry experts confirmed that the lightbulb was actually from the 30s.. They said it defied all known characteristics of the technology.. Probability was extremely low that the bulb would last that long.. But it did..
So to say that it DOES NOT HAPPEN... is a little rediculous.. To say that its very unlikely is a much more REALISTIC statement..
Sorry, I've been an engineer for going on 25 years, and it is MUCH more realistic to say it NEVER happens, and you have to supply extraordinary proof for any exceptions. You say there is a C64 that ran 24/7 for 20 years? I say PROVE IT! It's probably been swapped out a few times (probably when the "harddrive" failed - his euphemism for replacing the computer) and the story told is pure Grade-A bull.
I don't buy beach front property in Arizona, and I sure don't buy 20+ year-old computers running 24/7 without failures. I was born at night, but it sure wasn't last night. If you buy that C64 story, I've got a Bigfoot fur I want to sell you.
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How about a little competition... and an update for the thread.
The Myth series from NeoFlash are adapters that allow GBA flash carts to be used by other consoles. While any GBA compatible flash cart could be used, the menus from NeoFlash only support NEO brand GBA flash carts... go fig.
All the adapters have built-in USB for flashing from a PC, except for the SMS cart, which comes with a separate stand-alone USB flasher.
By making an adapter for GBA flash carts, you can take advantage of the bulk manufacture of GBA flash for lower prices on the GBA flash. You aren't stuck with just X amount of flash, you can pop in another flash cart for more games. The GBA flash carts with an SD card interface are also supported for loading games from SD or SDHC in any size (with an SD adapter... for example, use a MicroSD to SD adapter to use MicroSD cards).
The NEO N64 Myth flash cart: The Myth adapter for the N64, it plays all N64 games, and uses either an N64 cart on a pass-through connector on the back, or a CIC chip soldered to the PCB inside the cart. Using the Neo2-Pro flash cart with SD interface, you can load games up to 256Mbits from SD/SDHC. Larger games have to be run from flash, but there aren't many of those. Supports all type of save mem, from EEPROM, to SRAM, to FRAM.
The NEO SNES Myth flash cart: The Myth adapter for the SNES, it plays most SNES games. It also uses a pass-through connector for the CIC and for enhancement chips. The current menu can run DSP games, and work is being done on supporting other enhancement chip games. It can also load games from SD/SDHC with a flash cart with SD interface. You can use either the Neo2-Pro or the older (and cheaper) Neo2-SD carts for that. Supports all types of save mem.
The NEO Myth MD 3-in-1 flash cart: The Myth adapter for the SEGA Genesis. It supports all Genesis games except Virtua Racing. You can run SMS games (acts as a PBC) with FM, Genesis games, and 32X games. Supports EEPROM and SRAM saves. You can use the Neo2-Pro or Neo2-SD for running games from SD/SDHC. The cart also supports SEGA CD BIOS replacement, and SEGA CD BRAM backup.
And finally the NEO Mark III Myth flash cart: The Myth adapter for the SEGA Master System. It runs all SMS, SG-1000, and Mark III games. It's not in the store yet, but me and the other programmers who work on the Myth menus have our carts and are hard at work on the menu. It should be available shortly. It also makes FM available to games. If you look at the pictures in the link, you'll see you run the AV cable to the cart, then run an RCA cable from the cart to the TV. That allows the cart to mix the sound from the MS with the FM in the cart. Will also run games from SD/SDHC with the Neo2-SD or Neo2-Pro cart. It has the ability to do one PAR cheat code, which can be switched on or off on the fly in the game.
Note that IC2005 is pretty expensive. Also note that most of the products have a pretty sharp drop for bulk orders. It would be nice if a dealer could stock some of their stuff so that people could get a better deal than buying straight from IC2005. I actually did a bulk order on the Neo2-SD some time back when I first bought my MD Myth so that I could pass along some savings to others who also had the MD Myth. That's how I got involved in the NEO Myth stuff - I thought I could do a better menu for the MD Myth, so I DID! Dr.neo then asked my to help on the N64 Myth menu, and then the SNES and SMS menus. I picked up help along the way from a few others (namely mic, Conle, and madmonkey). The menus are all open source, and we keep a google code page for them (the SMS menu is already committed there, even if the cart isn't out yet). So you can get updates and follow the code there:
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A Seagate Cheetah drive is certainly full of new silicon and they claim a MTBF of 180 years. After 100 years, about half the drives will fail. (and, this is a majorly mechanical device!) Are they mistaken, or deceptive?MTBF is a measure of reliability, not lifetime. An MTBF of 65,000 days means that if one were to run 65,000 drives continuously, you'd get about one failure per day.
Exactly, and a FIT of 100,000 years does NOT mean the chip will last 100,000 years. If that were the case, there would yet to be ANY failures, period.
And I do NOT believe there are any Atari computers anywhere that have been running a BBS 24/7 without fail for 20+ years. Sorry, not possible. I'm an engineer, not a magician. I deal with reality, not fiction.
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Well 2 to 20 can't be right or none of us here would be using our real Ataris since my newest one is from 87. Plenty of IC based equipment from 1975 is still running quite fine.
Depends on how much it's used. It probably does still work if it sat in your closet for the last 20 years, but it certainly didn't last 10 years if you used it 8+ hours a day. I replace ICs in my Atari more often than that. Some ICs are better than others due to better design of the support circuitry; for example, the POKEY - the A400/800 did little to no buffering on the POKEY outputs, so it goes dead much quicker than say the ANTIC. I've yet to have a POKEY last 3 years of ~8 hours a day usage on my A400. Later models buffered the serial better to avoid the issue.
Current is the number one enemy to ICs - the higher the current, the more likely the IC will die sooner than later. It's mostly due to electro-migration of the metal making the IC interconnects. There's been a LOT of money dumped into trying to make processes for interconnects using exotic metals cost effective to help deal with the issue. In the meantime, they work on lowering the current.
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Not to worry - chips are so reliable that they don't even spec Mean-Time-Between-Failures. They spec Failures-In-Time, how many failures you will get in 100,000 years!
Sorry, but there ain't NO IC NOWHERE that's lasting 100,000 years.
My instructor in IC design at the Uni worked for Texas Instruments - he used the same material in class that TI does for their entry level engineers, and he was big on stressing all the things that make life "interesting" for folks working on ICs. Ion dispersion in the substrate GUARANTEES an IC won't last 100 years, much less 100,000, and that's just sitting in a bin! Once you actually USE the IC, other factors come into play that make ICs die in anywhere from 2 to 20 years, depending on the operating conditions and materials used.
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Let's pretend it's the year 1978, and I'm buying a 400. Would I be buying it exclusively for playing games, or would I be using it for running my business or for the classroom? Who was it marketed for, and what did it do (aside from what sounds like some real nice gaming)?
It has a flat membrane keyboard and only 16K of RAM. Who in their right mind would run a business on that?
As for "WHAT IT DO"... dude, it's an 8-bit home computer. It do the same things all 8-bit home computers did.
The A800 with support for up to a HUGE 64KB! was aimed at businesses. The A400 was aimed at the home and educational markets. They were certainly priced that way as well.
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The educational cassettes are COOL! The instructor speaks off the cassette through the computer sound, while the display updates on the fly from the cassette. It will pause periodically for you to answer a question - answer right and it turns the cassette back on and continues the lesson.
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Two main problems: it has two 8-bit accumulators that can act as one 16-bit accumulator, and the index registers are 16 bits instead of 8. Just look over the wiki entry for an overview of it.
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Maybe the year isn't what we think it is. If production started in 1979, all those codes could be off by one year (1979=0, 1980=1, etc...)
I'll buy that. It actually makes sense.
I can see my A400 being made in July of 81, eventually shipping to a store in Texas, then sitting on the shelf until I bought it in June of 82.
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It looks brown, but it's really a silvered sticker - it's the Mosaic RAM sticker. There is indeed a code in the case under it - which says "Atari / 292". Just a guess, but maybe that means Feb '92... I did buy it the summer of '92.
Oops, my mistake. I bought this in 1982, not 92. It's probably not a date code. Sorry about the confusion.
It is, the "292" means it was manufactured in the 29th week of 1982.
It CAN'T be - I bought it before the 29th week of 1982. Hard to sell a computer that's not even made yet.
When I said "summer", I meant it from a student's point of view. It was purchased the first week of June.
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It looks brown, but it's really a silvered sticker - it's the Mosaic RAM sticker. There is indeed a code in the case under it - which says "Atari / 292". Just a guess, but maybe that means Feb '92... I did buy it the summer of '92.
Oops, my mistake. I bought this in 1982, not 92. It's probably not a date code. Sorry about the confusion.
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There is indeed a code in the case under it - which says "Atari / 292".
It looks like the 29th week of 1982, assuming a WWY datecode.
Impossible - I bought it before the 29th week of 1982. So it's probably not a date code. Yeah, I didn't read that right... 2/92 is WAY after Atari quit making those, so it's not that kind of date code for sure.
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It's been a long time since I flashed my 1 mb maxflash. But I do remember re-programming it and it didn't require a hot insert.
Do you have the latest Maxflash Cartridge Studio from www.atarimax.com? That's what I used. You 'Export' from the program if I remember. I think it asks if you want to erase the cart before it burns.
I also remember that I couldn't burn/re-burn it with my 800XL, but my 1200XL burned every time, don't think I tried my 800.
I have a "regular" cart, not the USB one.
The flasher on the image I was trying to burn was old (2005). I used their Windows app to update the ATR image (to 2009) and it worked fine. So the problem was the age of the flasher, but it's good to hear from folks who have hot-swapped the cart as well.
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Could you post, in the serial number thread, a close-up pic of the top of this shot? There appears to be a stamped and silvered number underneath the brown sticker. It might have a proper date code.
It looks brown, but it's really a silvered sticker - it's the Mosaic RAM sticker. There is indeed a code in the case under it - which says "Atari / 292". Just a guess, but maybe that means Feb '92... I did buy it the summer of '92.
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Could you post, in the serial number thread, a close-up pic of the top of this shot? There appears to be a stamped and silvered number underneath the brown sticker. It might have a proper date code.
It looks brown, but it's really a silvered sticker - it's the Mosaic RAM sticker. There is indeed a code in the case under it - which says "Atari / 292". Just a guess, but maybe that means Feb '92... I did buy it the summer of '92.
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The Genesis 3 doesn't connect a number of lines to the cart port that are used by such things as Virtua Racing and the 32X. There are mods on the net showing how to connect the lines from the ASIC to the cart port so they work. If you're really interested in getting the Genesis 3 to work, you'll need to mod it. Most folks find it easier/cheaper to just use a Model 2 or Model 1.
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I have a 400 with a Mosaic 64K RAM board that, if I remember correctly, was installed in early 1983 and I don't recall it having an XL compatibility mode. The 1200XL wasn't introduced until late 1982, and the 600XL/800XL until mid 1983, which makes this feature doubtful for early boards like mine. The 64K board you have is probably an updated version Mosaic released later.
I had the 32K board in my A400 to start (82). I seem to remember getting the Mosaic board in late 83 or maybe early 84. It DEFINITELY claimed to have an XL compatible mode, but I never tried it.
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I got an 8Mbit one just yesterday and had a question (I asked in the MaxFlash forums, but haven't got an answer yet, so maybe you could answer it): After flashing the first time, I ran into a dilemma - if I boot another flasher disk to reflash the cart, the cart menu comes up; if I hold down OPTION, I boot the flasher disk, but the cart is now gone. Are you really supposed to boot without the cart plugged in, then plug it in after booting? If so, how safe is that?
It isn't a problem - I re-flash them all the time using that method.
Thanks! I know people used to hot-swap carts on the Genesis and SNES, but I hadn't heard about that on the Atari... mainly because you couldn't on the model I had (an A400).
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That would be the version of the keyboard, since it is imprinted on the underside of it.
I had no idea they made several versions of the B-Key. Learn something new every day.
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Hey, look at what I just noticed on my picture of the bottom of my A400... it's the top of the joy port on the front...
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I would recommend you visit the creator of the flash carts at Atari Max. The 8Mb is only $39.99, comes with an optional USB programmer, but that is not necessary. The cart is designed to be programmed directly from the Atari computer. It's flash, so can be reprogrammed a ridiculous number of times. There are tons of free images for the cart on the forums.
I got an 8Mbit one just yesterday and had a question (I asked in the MaxFlash forums, but haven't got an answer yet, so maybe you could answer it): After flashing the first time, I ran into a dilemma - if I boot another flasher disk to reflash the cart, the cart menu comes up; if I hold down OPTION, I boot the flasher disk, but the cart is now gone. Are you really supposed to boot without the cart plugged in, then plug it in after booting? If so, how safe is that?
Okay, I figured it out - it was an older flasher (build 04092005). A newer flasher does detect the cart after booting with the OPTION down.
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Video issue to LCD TV
in Atari 8-Bit Computers
Posted
What most people do is get a box that converts your old console signal to a new HDMI/Component/VGA signal at HDTV resolution (upscaled). Look for converters for PSX, XBox, or similarly old consoles - it should work with the Atari as long as it can take a composite input.
This is the most commonly cited page on the subject.