Pilsner73

Correct. Heat the solder while the bulb is squeezed, then let go and presto - solder's gone. Two things to remember when using it though: 1) the desoldering iron has no temperature control so it gets very hot, so you don't need to leave it in place very long for it to do the job, and 2) tilt the iron forward and squeeze the bulb to blow the solder back out of the tip each time, or it will clog up. I keep an old damp sponge around for something to catch the solder in. I already got a solder vacuum from the shack so I'll give that a try with my new solering iron.

The Hakko website kinda stinks, but I was able to purchase direct from them last week. A fume extractor is not for the butane but the flux fumes that come from soldering. Some don't care about the fumes but I'd rather spend a bit on a fan with a carbon filter just to be safe. Just a suggestion. I went and ordered a Hakko fx-888 yesterday with a secondary tip. Seems Hakko has free shipping which worked out to be about the same price from anywhere else I looked. I had narrowed it down to the Hakko 936 and Weller Wes51, but it seems recent posts some people have mentioned having issues with Weller products and feeling the quality wasn't as good. Hakko is claiming the new FX-888 actually outperforms the 936 model so that decided me, hope it's as long lasting as the 936 seemed to be. I checked with Hakko and though they do manufacture the fx-888 in different color schemes the only one approved for USA use is the blue and yellow model. So from what I am seeing a desloder tool has the ability to heat the solder and suck it up in one device?

Interesting reading about Natco and some other stuff. Sounds like Natco was an in house (so to speak) proposal to keep the core of Atari and work in the directions they had already started to go in. Sounds promising and might of done very well but a lot of unknowns are there and as we all know things don't always go as planned. I said in an earlier post, back in the 80s when I was much younger all I knew about Atari back then is Warner was not happy with Atari's performance and sold them to TTL who kept them going. The Tramiels run of Atari is definitely polarizing.

NATCO? http://www.atarimuseum.com/ahs_archives/archives/pdf/misc/natco_suit.pdf Any idea what Natco was thinking about doing with Atari? Beyond cutting jobs and expenses?

I read that Warner tried selling Atari for awhile and even the Tramiels first deal didn't go through until Warner came back with the offer of just selling the Consumer division. Now if Warner didn't sell would they have closed Atari down and done a liquidation or kept it running until a sale could of happened I don't know for sure. Just a crazy theory but I wonder if the Tramiels didn't buy Atari, Warner was having trouble finding a buyer in the US and 1985 was coming, does Nintendo make a strong bid to buy Atari to use it's brand name for their NES game system release in the United States?

Since this thread was started about The Tramiels and Atari Corp I’d like to take a moment and relate my personal experiences with Atari computers and what the Tramiels buying Atari meant to me. Pre-Tramiel (I was about 7-8 years old I think) My first Atari came in the early 80s and was the Atari VCS system which friends and I spent countless hours playing. About 1981-82 I was with my family on Vacation and walking through a mall when I came upon a that most amazing site, Pac Man being played in a computer store looking to me the about as good as the arcade version. I was so impressed I remember the machine doing this was an Atari 800 computer and from that time I wanted one and made sure to let my parents know. Flash forward to Christmas 1984 I found a brand new Atari 800 48k computer with a 410 tape drive and some games both on tape and cartridge and a basic cartridge under the tree. I was too young at the time to know Atari was in major trouble and Warner was looking to sell them if they could but could shut them down if they couldn’t. Shortly after getting my first computer I joined a local user group and found out how Atari was barely alive but that it was just purchased by someone who wanted to bring Atari back on to the scene. That someone was Jack Tramiel and his purchase breathed new life into Atari and thankfully my new computer was still supported and with new software and hardware for the next few years. Without Jack taking over Atari I am not sure what would have happened but some people felt Warner was ready to shut Atari consumer division down if the sale didn’t take place. So though Atari under Jack T could have done more for the Atari 8-bit line, it could have been worse and my first computer could have been an orphan without any company support. I played games, did some word processing, messed around with Basic but the thing I enjoyed most was when Atari was telecommunications and Atari released some inexpensive modems for the Atari 8-bit line that worked well enough. Around 1987 I could tell the Atari ST seemed to have more software, support, and features than my 8-bit did. The Amiga was an option but I knew a lot more Atari owners and liked the ST computers I had used. I won’t deny the fact I had Atari bias but also the Amiga at the time was more expensive than the ST which was a major point in the STs favor. Sometime in 1987 there was a local computer show that also allowed local computer users to sell their equipment for free in a certain area. I decided to sell off my 8-bit stuff(with my parents approval) because a regional Atari dealer was there selling Atari ST computers and had said they would have a great show price for a Mega ST2 computer. My parents said if I could sell enough stuff making some money at the time they would consider covering the rest of the expense. Thankfully the sale went pretty well because other than mowing some lawns in the summer I didn't have much funds at the time. Another thing that helped was that thanks to Jack's business practices of wanting to make and sell a powerful but very affordable 16bit computer I was able to move on to the next generation of computing. I probably am giving too much of my history but I guess what I’m trying to say is due to Jack buying Atari and keeping the 8-bit line alive a few more years helped me get a positive experience with computers. What if Warner had either shut down the consumer division or sold it off to someone who could care less about computers and just wanted the video game end? I would have had a computer that was orphaned and at the time my family didn’t have the means to jump into another computer and accessories. Now maybe things would have been different if it was a Commodore 64 under the Christmas tree but that didn’t happen. Now maybe Warner keeps Atari and the ship is righted or someone else buys Atari and does better than Jack did but that didn’t happen. Looking back at Atari Corp and the Tramiels I do see things they could have done different/better, but as a young child getting into computers what they did was quite alright by me. Around 1994 I got my first PC and sold off my Atari ST equipment. The one thing I regret is not keeping some of the equipment from both the ST and 8bit computers I had but it was still a great experience.

Nice charts, they show a lot about the market, not sure how accurate they are but let's say they are close. I was surprised to see the Mac jump in the early 90s so much especially with Atari and Commodore for various reasons were losing market share. Could of it have been because Apple 8bit users (both consumer and educational) were finally upgrading? Apple with their stronger market position and having more cash to market had a serious edge over Atari and Commodore to grab those customers not to mention brand loyalty. Looks like to me around 1999-2000 the Mac line came down to where it's at today for marketshare. Now of course even though the Mac line is around the same market share that couldn't sustain Atari and Commodore we all know it's still going and Apple is making record profits. My opinion is they did a great job branching into other markets/product fields with their ipod, iphone, , ipad and itunes which are usually market leaders in their respective product field. Commodore to me seemed to be all about the Amiga in the early 90s with their 8bit line fading. I know they made the Amiga CD32 game machine but they still went bankrupt. Now Atari on the other hand seemed to see the writing on the wall that their TOS computer business was not strong enough to keep the company going and made attempts to branch out. The Atari portfolio, clone computers, Atari Lynx and Jaguar were all attempts to branch out but by the time of the Jaguar, they pulled back to that one product and it didn't work out. So the Tramiels saw they need to branch out into other fields but they never had the success they needed to keep going. So I give them credit for seeing the need to be more than a computer company but the execution of the plan well history has already judged.

People keep making this claim, without providing a single iota of evidence. Does anybody have any facts to back up this opinion? I mean, I've dug up market share numbers going back to the '70s, Atari's financials during the late '80s and early '90s, units sold figures for several of the major platforms of that era, all kinds of facts. Surely somebody can find some credible source online to back up the oft-repeated contention that PC's didn't "take off seriously" in Europe until the mid-'90s. I can state definitively that I read UK computer magazines on a monthly basis from '87 - '91, traveled to France and the UK in '92 and '93 and saw Atari's annual reports during the same period. The magazines were full of PCs (as well as alternate platforms), and the PC was certainly treated as the dominant platform. Atari's annual reports sure didn't reflect them having some enormous business in Europe (how could they, when the ST only shifted 4 million units during its entire lifespan?), and when I got to Europe in '92 the Amiga and ST were already obviously on their deathbeds and PCs were everywhere. Not just for sale in the shops, but installed in offices and being used for a multitude of functions. The PC probably didn't rule the home computer roost in Europe until after 1990, but then again the Commodore 64 seems to have remained the king of that domain throughout the '80s, not the ST or the Amiga. Both of the 16-bit platforms from Atari and Commodore seem to have had a period of about two years when they were marginally hot in the home computer space, and then imploded ('86 - '88 for the STs, '88 - '90 for the Amigas). Meanwhile, Apple's profits exceeded Atari's revenues and the clones went on to gobble up a 90% market share. I am not sure when the PC took off in most of Europe but a lot of reading I have seen has them using the Specturm computers, then the C64, next Amiga/ST and then going to the pc computer but when that was exactly I don't have dates for that. I read somewhere that Commodore before they went bankrupt had a ton of orders for the Amiga 1200 (I think) in Europe but Commdore folded before they could place the orders. So I think the Amiga was still a strong concern until about 1992-93 range.

I think that's a pretty odd statement coming from somebody who's just stated that the Mac had a smaller software library than the ST, something which is just obviously ludicrous and, frankly, a bit loopy. I mean, ST magazines at the time complained about how far the STs were falling behind the Mac in terms of productivity software, and it was a common slam against the ST in the general computer media. Until 1987 the STs didn't even have a decent word processor. That's pretty basic. The ST's version of Word Perfect wasn't exactly stellar, either - I definitely recall it being reviewed as a serious mixed bag by a couple of the big ST magazines. A few people in Europe made do with the ST as a "business" machine for a couple of years - it was certainly more capable than a Commodore 64 - but it wasn't a mainstream choice even there as the market share figures prove. Not as oddball and as loopy as you stating that the PC was the first dominant 16-bit computer in Europe. I wish I still had my trade software catalogs from the main distributors to put up here and then you could go through the pages and pages of ST, and Amiga titles compared to the smaller PC section (which did get bigger year on year) and the zero pages for the mac - which the main software distributors hardly touched. As for the Genesis displacing the ST and Amiga, I presume you are talking again about the US market. In the UK the console and home computer markets were quite different for sometime and also at times cyclical. It was probably the PS1 that made console gaming cool for the masses. Do you really think an Amiga owner would rather have had a Genesis (megadrive) ?, really? We get it that you don't like the ST, we really do. We also get the fact that you refuse to recognize any positive impact that the Atari ST may have had on computing. So, can I ask you a question. What happened to the ST in the Uk? I mean, why did Atari stop making and selling the St line in the UK? It seems that both Germany and the Uk were very strong on the ST. I am sure there was a big enough market in the UK and Germany to continue the ST line if for only those two countries. (There is no sarcasm or anything in this question. I am just curious as to why Atari would stop selling a computer in countries where it was such a success. I am sure there must have been other countries as well.) I'd like to chime in on a few points. I was a home user back in the day so the ST with it's performance, decent software for home, games, and ability to jump on online at a price superior to the Mac/IBM clones was that machine for me. I checked out the Amiga but about that time the IBM clones finally were coming into their own for GUI/Graphics/Sound and Commodore was not doing any better than Atari business wise. Also my memory may be playing tricks but didn't Microsoft either pull out of the Mac market or didn't do much for it? As for lime green/low res. Yeah Atari made some odd choices and the icons/desktop never looked good until some tweaking was done. When the STe line came out Atari should of totally revamped the desktop look and feel which they didn't really do until the Falcon 030. The Falcon030 was too little too late and really was aimed at niche for musicians and artists. As for Europe it seems to me Atari lost the lead in those markets when they lost the price/performance advantage to the Amiga. Now if they could have had the STe and Mega STe out by 1988 and then a Falcon 030 following in 1990 who knows but they didn't release them on those dates. I think Sam T saw the writing on the wall that Atari had missed out in the computer market in the US and Europe was declining and he put all his eggs in one basket with the Jaguar and video games. Of course the Jaguar was another technology that under the Tramiels seemed that it's marketing/development didn't seem good enough. Atari either lacked the cash or was unwilling to mortgage themselves to get back into the marketplace. The first Jaguar had some nice points but it needed more software development with some great titles and then Atari needed to get the Jaguar II readied for release. But Atari didn't use the first Jaguar to reenter the market build a base and then go all out with the Jaguar II (which Microsoft did with the first Xbox).

We get it you hated the ST form factor. Yet the ST had more hardware performance out of the box over the Mac. Oh no Atari picked low res as default and Lime green (which is still far superior to what colors Mac could use), really they were quickly and easily changed. Apple had one button mouse buttons, how lame. Actually I thought the first Macs were toys with their little screen, no color, small monitor, one button mouse, small keyboard, beige Vectrex style case. The Apple II line outsold the Mac for awhile after it came out and was what kept Apple going while they waited for the Mac to be profitable, then it was the ipod, iTunes that had save Apple later. I don't call it a failure but at the price it came out as, they should offered more. Since you keep saying the Mac had more software that you wanted to use, why didn't you buy a Spectre GCR and run said software on your Atari Mega ST? For a small investment more you could of had your Atari being a Mac. Really the Megafile actually at the time was a good deal and I know a lot of ST users who had Hard Drives with their ST computer. IMO the buying public have made the PC and it's form factor the number one design which is a separate monitor, detachable keyboard, and case that is either on the desktop or tower. Most articles I read state that the Apple II line was what kept Apple profitable for a long time after the Mac was released so the Mac design wasn't the be all end all. Dell, Lenovo, HP and even Apple seem to have more computer models without the monitor built in. I thought the first Mac design was horrible, looked like a beige Vectrex with it's dinky monitor. The Mega should of been more, I think Atari over priced the Mega compared to the general ST line for what you got but it did offer detachable keyboards, built in drive, and desktop stand for most monitors at the time.

I decided not to quote a bunch of messages so I'll just respond to some of the topics that have come up recently. I'll try to keep this about the Tramiels and their run of Atari Corp best I can. Apple MAC vs Atari ST - MAC was more mainstream than the ST in the USA, theirs no arguement from me on this point. The Tramiels made mistakes in marketing and distrbution with the ST line of computers but one thing they didn't do was make an inferior machine to the Mac hardware wise. The ST when it came had enoug horsepower under the hood to compete with the Mac and most of it's competition. As for GEM I never had a problem using it and always have preferred two or more buttons on my mice. Software wise the MAC had more software from major US software publishers but the nice thing is an ST owner could by Magic SAC or Spectre GCR and not only emulate the MAC but run software faster than some MACs could. As for the suggestion Atari all in one design was wrong, you do know Atari did release the Mega, Mega STE, and TT030 line of computers which featured a desktop case, detachable keyboard, and could support a monitor on top. These computers also had add on hard drive modules (atari file and others) or could come with built in hard drives. The add-on external hard drives worked on other all in one models. As to the monitor being built in? Seriously why would anyone want that for any computer that is not a true portable? With my Atari's if the monitor goes bad I just need to go grab a new monitor (borrow, buy, or grab a spare) and I'm working again. Same if the computer goes down, I still have a working monitor I can hook to another computer. Now with a built in monitor if the either the computer or monitor goes and I have to give it to a repair shop the whole thing is gone until fixed. The Tramiels missed the boat though on releasing an ST in a true desktop case. The MEGA ST when released should of had options for an internal hard drive, blitter, 16mhz processor, and the optional FPU from the start. Add these options and you have one awesome business machine back in 1987. Too bad they didn't do all that until 1991 or so with the Mega STE. GEM vs other OS - I like GEM, never cared for the old style MAC OS, and haven't played with Amiga OS enough to make an opnion but have read that on release we got a rushed job and what they originally intended would of been one awesome OS. The Tramiels could of done better but they did some smart things with the GEM and it was simple to use. They waited too long for pre emptive multitasking support though. Atari failing as a computer company - Yes they didn't survive, just like Commodore and many other companies that either are gone or just exist as a marketing name. The Tramiels tried to have Atari be a company that did many things. They had a computer line for both home/business, Went after the portable electronics market with other products and be a player in the video game market. The bottom line is they never were succesful enough or followed up success they did have well enough to make it. The Tramiels made mistakes, timing was either too early or late for some products, and of course Atari under them never seemed to have the resources to market things well enough. Apple the biggest computer company? Don't you mean the biggest gadget company? - Now Apple is still around and a hit of a computer company but how much of that is because of the MAC? The MAC has always had a niche in the marketplace and from quick research seems to have 5% of the computer Market for use. Now new Macs use Intel processors, run Windows if you so choose but still can run iOS. So Apple is a profitable, large company because of their Mac line of computers? Oh wait I think it's more because of products called iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, etc. I give Apple all the credt for moving in to these markets so well and either become the leader or a major player. I also admire them for taking different products and giving them a common look and feel across the whole lineup. Sales figures for a computer model - Hey the king of this is the Commodore 64 according to many sources. This is for a same model computer not a line of computers. Jack Tramiel and the designers at Commdoroe did with the Commodore 64 to computers what Henry Ford did to the automobile world with his Model T. I personally prefer a vehicle with airbags, ample power, key start, air conditioning just like for everyday computing I want a computer with high resolution, memory and storage space to spare, fast processing, run multiple programs at once, and more. Does the Model T or Commdore 64 fit the bill, hardly. But both the Model T and C64 brought affordable products in their product realm to the masses and so far we haven't turned back. Now let's get this discussion back on track of the Tramiels and Atari Corp.

I have a 48k Atari 800 with basic and star raiders carts, rebuidlable power supply 800 power supply, another backup power supply, rf box, and manual. Now the machine itself is in great condition really was shocked how good it looked when I checked it the other day. The 800 rebuidable power supply was just bought and the other unit was the one it came with which was sealed but taken apart to to check fuse, the carts are loose but work, the rf box looks like it's from the 1980s and the computer box on the other hand is fair at best worse than fair if you consider the picture above fair . The stryofoam is OK but the box has seen better days. It too was my first computer hence I kept it over all the other computers I have owned and has some value to me.

PM sent

From what I read Hakko seems well regarded but I am not so sure about finding accessories/replacement parts for their products easily. Weller seems to be easy to find accessories/parts for. Also still debating about spending around $100.00 for a Hakko or Weller station or just spend $30-50 for a good soldering iron or the Weller consumer station. As to the fumes I meant the fuel fumes for the butane.

as developed by Atari Corp but really was started/done under the Tramiel Technologies but really since The Tramiels bought Atari and put staff on board I would say those are Atari computers. I checked this site http://www.dataairlines.net/tech/a-brief-history-of-the-atari-st/

I was thinking about buying a new soldering iron/station for use on any repairs and upgrades I may do with old computer equipment and wanted some advice. Currently I have a solder vacuum (radio shack), and a Weller butane soldering iron which is nice but have to refuel all the time and not a big fan of the fuel smell. From what research I have seen Weller and Hakko are respected brands that make good products. Now they sell the traditional soldering iron, soldering stations, guns and more. Some people want to be able to control both the voltage and temp to the soldering iron, where others feel voltage control is ok, and some others just want a good soldering iron that heats up well. Main uses of soldering equipment would be computer/electronic equipment repair/upgrade, possible wiring like speakers.

One thing I have heard many times over is for a lot of companies an established name and brand is easier and cheaper to market for than a new one. Yes in some ways Atari might of benefited making another brand name and marketing computers under that but it would of required a considerable investment to not only market this new brand but also set up supply chains, dealers, and various other things that go with a new brand/label. Actually me memory is a bit hazy but didn't Atari Corp try that with their line of PC clones? Would it of worked, maybe but Atari had enough trouble marketing under an established brand name. You ever wonder why car companies keep bringing back car names/model lines from the past? They already have those names trademarked and a lot of times have name recongition with consumers.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/152112-sneak-peak-amiga-atari-design/ (a lot more scattered in other topics too, sierra, gaza, rainbow chipset with silver & gold, etc) Unfortunately it's been a LOT longer than 2 weeks and there's still not update on Atarimuseum AFIK. There's also the 3200 from '80/81 that was canceled in favor of the 5200: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/156916-atari-ss1000-sylvia/ (unlike once thought, it was NOT an odd unconventional system with a "10-bit" CPU, but apparently a fairly evolutionary derivative of the VCS merging in some of the A8 hardware -namely ANTIC while presumably adding GTIA like functionality to STIA if not boosting things beyond what GTIA can do) Thanks for the links, read over the threads and sounds like the 3200 was canceled by Atari years before the Tramiels took over so when they bought Atari they already had the 7800 sitting in warehouses so why bother with the 3200 from a business standpoint? I think the 3200 made sense if it was developed and released by 1980-81 but as others said the 7800 probably replaced that project. As to the 16bit and beyond computers by Atari R&D under Warner my opinion is - The thread was started in 2009 and we are still waiting for the documents/pictures/story of these items so far all I see is a lot of speculation going on. What I did gather is that if the designs were real and going to be built by Atari (before the Tramiels), Atari was probably going to position the Amiga as a low end computer/game console and these new 16bit powerhouse machines for the high end, probably comparable to Mac/Lisa performance and pricing. Jack goes to buy Atari and the Amiga deal doesn't happen so he's left without that. Then of course Amiga is going to Commodore to be their new computer. So not only does Jack lose his new everyman game console/computer design but his old company is going to be releasing it. So he is left with some proven game machines (2600/7800), the 8-bit line of computers designed in the late 70s, and maybe some R&D designs of powerful 16bit computers. Now was Atari R&D 16bit computer designs ready to become production hardware? I have no idea but even if they were, if the price was on par or more than the Mac, Lisa, Amiga, and PC - you know Jack would never want that for his companies new every person product. So I see Jack saying he needs a 16bit computer to compete against the world and he wants it to not only be as powerful as the competition products (if not more so) but also be less expensive and still make Atari a profit. Hence we get the Atari ST which was rushed to get Atari back on the scene with a viable product and beat the Amiga to the punch.

When I was a student, the Atari 520 ST was $500, the Amiga 500 was $800 and the Mac 512 was $2000. The ST was in color. The Amiga was even more colors. The Mac was black and white. I didn't find the interfaces to lean better in one direction over the other. But I thought Macs were laughably over-priced relative to what you got. There were stores where I could buy software for all three easily so that wasn't an issue. Also the ST also had a very good for the time Monochrome monitor option.

I have been reading over this thread and keep hearing about Atari's advanced designs for 16-bit computers, is there any solid information, prototypes, development stories out there? I can say I am interested in hearing about it and what if any of the things they were working on made it into actual products Atari or otherwise.

Probably. You would have to make the hole where it exits the console a little bigger, but trying to find the RCA "mini type" plugs might be the bigger task! A regular RCA plug won't work because of the angle. Yeah figured it was just an idea to throw out there, not sure if today's coax would be better at shielding and signal strength. As to getting the cable into a 2600, I know the light sixer models have larger square holes that allow one to easily get the stock cable out.

Thanks for the responses. Files and game posution on screen - I am redoing any files I will load on to the rom and trying to make sure I add only NTSC files. I got spoiled by the STella Emulator handling pal and NTCS. Display of Menu - I hooked it up to a CRT TV and it looked a lot better so it's something with the LCD tv, just wondered if anyone had some tips for LCD settings with the Harmony/2600. It's an LG 720p 37" hdtv.

Just got my Harmony Cartridge and some questions. Any tricks to getting it to display the menu on a HD LCD tv as it would a CRT tv? What's the best way to setup any roms on it? Some games the screen display looks off either with color or position, what might be the cause?

Just wondering, could someone get a good quality rg-59/6 cable with one end being rca type and the other end f-coaxial and just replace the 2600 cable altogether and not need an adapter/switchbox.

Quick update stopped at radio shack and picked up an f to coax adapter. Before booting the light sixer up I decided to clean the switches/contacts with rubbing alcohol tonight. Also cleaned all the cartrdige contacts. Fired it up and it looked really good, still got a 2200uf on coming which I will replace but I guess this shows the old switchbox is on it's last legs. Amazing how these machines can hold so well up after 30 years. So Harmony Cart and heavy sixer are do this coming week so should be interesting to play on that.