Symmetry of TNG
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Posts posted by Symmetry of TNG
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Hmmm.... i have been buzy (preparing a "private only" video of... a jaguar project (but atm i cant upload it to the web?)) ....But..
...what is this "Unity" ....is it even remotely jaguar related (other than historically, ie YaK created jaguar games) ..or have i totally missed something? ...it must be right?... since if yak were to produce something retro it would cause tremours across the jagscene that would make the Richterscale look redicoulus
So it is for what system? ....(please people dont answer: "look at his homepage"... cause.... well that is an obvious replye =) Only interesting replyes here would make me spend time on non jaguar related...
..so...anyhow...
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..I for one like new "gaming" hardware... and I feel that it is a true pitty that the jaguar VR unit didn't realy make it... (or came out in more units)
..As usual Atari was WAY ahead of the rest of the world!...
If... or should I say, when =) i make FPS game it will for shure have ..some kind of support for some kind of head tracker.. (even if i have to build the hole HW thing myself)...
Would be cool to support the VR unit.. but since there are only 1 or 2 in exsistence (and probably owned by the same person) it will not be worth it..
Guess what i am saying is that "PEOPLE! Unite and build new jaguar HW!!" =)
ahh well...
..a short note about that link:
....."Force Feedback" and it is a picture of a headset...? ...cool... does it BANG your head if you hit a wall? ...Coool
cheers
/Symmetry of TNG
Software AND HW developer for the Jaguar.
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Hi!
Short comment:
JustClaws
>recent releases
..some of which never crossed my eyes.. due to the fact that they only appear on US jagfiests (or fiests in general) ..like Gorf... the only thing i ever seen from that is the old Very OLD thing that was in the BJL rom... so... (?)....
>Well an ISO doesn't help with the Jaguar does it.
Yes, as mentioned i ment and "clone CD".ISO.. so to speak.. ie you do the maketrk thing to create your bootable cd & then you "ripp it" .ISO style.. and give that Demo. image out to the public making it possible for most people with a PC & a cdburner to burn their own demo cd, almost free of charge & shipping cost...
If.. or should i say When! i finish a Jaguar Demo it will most sertanely be like that... (unless it contains something playable in which case it will be a smaller fee *hehe*
Compo
>Why not? I'd like to win a Flash cart! Any sponsors out there? Anyone?
hehe.. you might get competition
so dont jump to victory just yet Sponsors?.. well a Cart would be enough... some kind of atari HW... I could think of 1000 things to like.. but to make people put some kkind of effort into their productions a better price might be nesessity...
ahh well.. I can ceep on dreaming
cheers
/Sym
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Hi!
..I think my replye to this topic was posted in the "new developer" thread... so if anyone is interested read it there & post replye here=)
about 4-player:
I always thought a "BoulderDash kind of scrolling game" would do great in multiplayer on the jaguar.. just having 2x2 OP objects that follows each player running in a similar world.. ..or I even beleive the jag to be fast enough to folow "Team-Tap" number of players... though in smaller "windows" (yaiiks, sorry but i had to use that Word.. Yaiks Again *hehe*
Anyhow.. it is a nice idea... So is the 3Dlib 3D lander!..
All i can say is that there are 1001 ideas/possible things to do on the jaguar!... just not enough coders (that have/Take! time
/Sym
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Hi!.... what is this about? ...read it by chance and it sounded important =)
>Stone: Blame Symm
Hehe.. I will pass it on to BS42 then
since it was his demos i was fiddeling with in the beginning and used the same extension as he did..prg= program... though a jaguar program =)
Though i do understand the problem.. i find it confusing when complete romdumps have the extensoin .jag
All i would ask is that the "rules" that atari made is folowed as close as possible.. and after that i would say its best if the "emulator" is inteligent, and checks for all extensions...
But.. im a bit against emulators anyway, dont see why i want to play my jaguar on a pc? =) so atm im not that worried...
>.PRG - Really an Atari TOS format binary I think - but I've seen
a couple of Jaguar binaries named .PRG, very confusing.
Again, it would be nice to eliminate these if it's possible!
"right klick", "change name" ...
What is important is that the accompanied info textfile in the demos is still there, so people can read what kind of files it is and where to upl it..
That is what i would 1st sugest.. since we now have so many coders/hackers/dumpers/gamers out there with free will and no real standard, it is bound to happen...
But that is what you wanted to change in the 1st place, wasnt it =)
ahh well, I´ll watch the thread.. =)
/Sym admitting doing wrong
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Some other small replyes:
>Gunstar: Halo/GTA
Sure
pay me a couple of millions & give me a coupla of years.. and I might give you a wireframe version *hehe* Lunar Lander 2000 ..now that Is a nice idea... (i have heard it before though) but never realy got the inspiration to do it.. Speaking of Mr.SPOCK.. his relative.. (cant realy put it in english terms) codename: URK made this game a long time ago in GFA basic for his.. was it MegaST or his TT... anyhow would be a nice project... (as i speak i realise that my Verlet physics integrator would work just fine) ...perhapps Spock should carry his family "legacy" to the new generation ataris
....no... geting "requests=preasure" the first thing you get as a newcomer is never that nice. but perhapps.. =)>StarCat
You got some reading in my previous post
>Stone
tunnels beeing textures untill you get close to them?... hmm.. i dont exactly understand what you mean... inside the tunnel or before you enter it?
IIRC the tunnel entrance is just a texmap (for shure) and when you hit it another renderer is loaded, a tunnel renderer... which might be 3D based... (or perhapps 2D starfield with a twist =).
>field of specified x/y step sizes, some code to automatically draw a triangle That's how I'd do it, anyway
I think you are to smart!
(not kidding, you should code more!=) ..since what you describe is a triangulated voxelrenderer (or what i might call it) somethig that has been only made as 2 small demos for the jag (by.. whom? whittaker?) and it would be a kickass landscape renderer... might even be better than doing it "voxel style" like phase0 & my demos..But i think BM uses a 3d modeled landscape.. doing the "2D thing which is 3D-1D" as i tried to explain above... but as always i can be wrong!.
>Justclaws
>Of course optimisation should be a compliment, not a criticism...
I totally agree! ..making things right but slow is not always a good thing (MS/Xbox).. Im more impressed when you run 3D on a system not realy ment for it =)
I think this is what SPOCK tryed to say in his first post... (and i said it with my old infinitebobs remark) that it is the result that matters, not realy how you get there...
>I understand 3D, but it's a big leap from understanding to doing.
thought it was "A small step for man... a Gigant leap for the Jaguar scene"
>Ieearco
>A Streetfighter 2 version.
Also something that would be realy nice to see.. and not that hard to do on the jag.. since it has all the HW for it (Blitter!) ..just dont understand why no UGD started such a thing (or perhapps soeone did)... But perhapps they feel like me, its just SO much Graphics to do!.. since its mostly gfx in such a game. the engine would be a couple of Kb's (i would guess, especially using the built in tricks in the blitter) but the rest of the 10Mb's would be, or would have to be for it to be good, graphics... and Im a coder not an artist =)
No.. thats all for today! =)
cheers All!
/Sym
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Hi!
(replye written at home so forgive any duplicate answers =) also all dots seem to have dissapeared..wierd!)
Well I said BattleMorph “might be” cheating =) since I (unfortunately!!!!!) don’t have the source I cant rely be certain, but I assume (based on my knowledge) that they did, since that’s how I would do it.. (and anyone else trying to shave off all unnecessary instructions.
Basically what I meant is that when you limit the camera to only spin around one axis, like BM does, you save quite some multiplications in your “3D transformation”.
Some Linear Algebra in ascii Math:
To do a rotation in 2D you do:
X´=x*cos + y*sin
Y´= -x*sin + y*cos
This would be enough to spin a object on 2D screen, or “cheat” 3D if your camera can only rotate around the “up” direction (using the distance to the object as a Z-scale parameter).
This would still give 3D, and by god it is “3D”! =) ..also known as “Human model” (or something, based on the fact that humans tend to have their head upwards (in sober state
Allot of “3D” games use this principle to simplify things.
This does not necessarily mean that your world map is “2D” (strictly mathematically speaking) since you might have X,Y position and a Height value saved in a map.. height actually being the 3rd dimension.
You might even have things “on top” of one another, levels on levels, it would just be another “level” to take care of with the 2D transformation above (though you would need to change the map structure ,off course, since in such a simplified map described above, two objects cant occupy the same place in memory, but with a different data structure of your world, it could.
So.. allot of games who have “out of body” camera uses the above simplified transformation..
Then off course there might be 3D on BM objects, since they need to rotate around all axes… (unless they use similar principle, “always up” animations that only need to rotate around one axis (yet objects have 3D vertices off course, and are 3D objects!).
If the above 2D rotation is to be done in all 3 dimensions things get harder:
X’=x*c + y*s + z*0
Y’=-x*s + y*c + 0*z
Z’= x*0 + y*0 + z*1
Ie allot more multiplications..(not counting perspective transformation!) But as can be seen if the camera is “fixed” there are some terms that get multiplied with zero. And actually a waste of time, if you choose to have a “out of body” camera (or not aloe Pitch of head).
To actually spin a object around arbitrary 3D axis you have to do, three separate 3x3 matrix multiplications (similar to the one above, rotating about one axis at a time) ..OR better yet realize you can concatenate the 3 rotations into one complex 3x3 matrix that does all rotations in one 3x3 matrix mult. (and there are allot of different methods/simplifications with different properties to get some kind of result, Euler angles, and Upvector camera model (cf some book on 3D =)
With a full 3x3 matrix you get the freedom to move your “head” on all directions.. this would aloe the view to tilt from left to right (cf tilting head left/right in a fps) not just rotate left right.
For example I assume this is what BattleSphere does to get full “3D space” feeling, and BattleMorph, might (with high probability) use the simpler method above.. on Some of its transformations! (not necessarily all).
But my initial point being, since BM draws so much more on screen at all times, and uses, what appeared as full 3D (OK perhaps 2D) frustum clipping, with CD & sound n more, it is still, in my opinion more technically advanced than BS, in the sense that it pushes the jag to the upper limit. (also not saying that maxlimit has been reached
(BS is highly advanced in it own sense, compared to other jaguar games, but in my opinion less impressive than BM) What makes BS stand out is the fact that it is a good 3D game and has good gameplay (or so they say
via network. And I for one is highly impressed by 4Plays work (..unless they used Ataris 3D libs, or did they? But the code I would like to look at, and learn something from is BattleMorph’s (in BS code I would look for one thing.. and you all know what that is
Anyone still listening? …amazing, I don’t believe it
..Go coding instead Make those OP objects spin on screen!Cheers
/Sym
Jaguar R&D at TNG
(Reservation for misprints! Bad memory, speaking total bollox, and so on.. since it was some time since I used 3D
This might be a good time to pick up the old axe & continue chopping -
Hi! kevincal
>I dunno I don't think Battlemorph showcases the best 3-d the system has to offer.....
Well as i said my statement might be influenced by what kind of games i like
..But having dug into 3D for more than 2 years now, I get some insights into what is neede to do a particular visual thing, and even though BattleMorph probably is "cheating" by having their world in 2D (hence skipping a full 3D rotation) it is Still verry impressive (in my eyes!).
The result they manage to do with "resonable high framerate". the combination of huge texmaps,gouroud, nice collision detection, rather detailed animated objects, Drawing of background!!!, ..and what appeared as full frustum clipping (yeezz man!..how they have time to do that I dunno) and all this working with CD, nice sounds, and EVERYTHING!... makes it a very technically advanced game, if not "the" most technically advanced ever made on the jaguar... (in my eyes! ie this is my oppinion, we are all titeled to our own right
..including some recent releases .....(Yes i mean BS...
I know some of you might say I am wrong... but remember what i first stated in this mess, and if you were in my shoes you might just think the same...
By this I am NOT stating which game is the "best" from gameplaying point of view! ..because then we all know Tempest will win
*haha- just joking-though T2K is a personal favourite aswell*just my thoughts
cheers
/Sym
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..dont know realy where to post this but:
Was there no new demos shown at the last JagFiest?
And i dont mean previews of games (which I do understand if noone whants to spread) but i mean just demos... like the ones i made (ages ago
....just for inspiration..../Symmetry ...missing Jaguar Demos
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Hi JustClaws...
..hmm... has it been 2 years?... hot jikkedy... and still nothing "brand new" released... makes you (speking in general terms, but actually meaning, me) kind of wonder the state of the UGD on the jaguar scene.
Though this "discovery" ...(which Im still wondering how it could be "lost" for so meny years, personally i know my atari inventory down to the last coord
...helps future releases ALLOT! and opens up new doors for jag games, it's a bit sad that nothing is released yet... not even a bootable demo...I know peiple out there have enough skills to do small demos/games, but why not just DO it! and link the .iso for eveyrone to dwl..
Perhapps it is time to do a "Jaqguar Online COMPO" with some kind of price... ? ...ahh well...
Nice stuff Curt! ceep em coming
cheers
/Symmetry ....(been coding jaguar for more than 2 years.. so tell me to "speak for myself"
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Hi!
Just a short reflection... (b4 me real question)
He confirmed that they are made by himself and not by Tyrant.Well.. that would be obvious wouldn't it? Since Tyrant did not make them!... but the point Tyrant made was that his "design" & solution of the problem, was/might have been copied... Something which, if it is true, wouldnt be nice to do, since he is making money of someone elses ideas (Even though he made the actual "wiering"/copying himself...
Ahh well.. enough about that, dont whant to be part of any flaming Moes
Anyhow my real question:
How.. ..?... actually does the Rorary work when it comes to the Extra levels in Tempest? ...I mean is the Up/Down/L/R thing still usable under that knob, or? ....it must be right? or there would be no way to play the extra levels in T since some of them require U/D action.... (though most action is L/R, but still).
If it does, I do appresiate the work/solution you made Tyrant since atm I couldnt even think of a nice solution myself
Might have to order such a thing one day
..though only if it garantees to beat my personal record that i just beat yesterday
....(though it wasnt saved.. might be to old eeprom.. typical)just my 2cents
cheers
/Sym
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Hi ! justclaws
>I don't think Linko' meant any criticism really.
öhhm... I was not talking to Linko since he never said that, I was making a joke to Mr.Spock, a "childhood friend" of mine... =)
As i understand Linko believes the Jag can to 3D, and so do I, and i think he also dont believe people that do 3D on the jag are dumb & foolish (in a bad way) and neither do I.. NOR DOES MR.SPOCK! I just needs to state this (since he doesnt seem to wanna do it himself
He loves jag 3D games, but will start off, like all of us in the beginning, with 2D.. Though.. knowing 3D on the jaguar I would almost have to agree with his "unexpected" statement... Because who of us (that do 3D, or tried) can't honestly say that you would not have to be a bit "foolish & dumb" to even start coding your own 3D engine from scratch? =) It is no easy task thats for sure..
But what do they say? "Fortune favors the bold"
Enough about that... we are all jaguar lovers here! =)
>Of course these days people believe if it's written on the Internet or on a forum, it must be true!
.."Send all your money to Symmetry of TNG support jaguar development" *hehe*
>>just that none of them were really explored (closest came BattleMorph in 3D, and Native (I would say) in 2D).
>None of them? Some of them I think you mean...
No.. if i know my English right (*cough* which i dont
..i meant none of them.... (not literally offcourse! since there are several good 2D & 3D games for the jag) ...but i believe that the full potential of the Jag has still to be explored! ...Battlemorph is the most technically advanced 2d/3d game for the jaguar, AvP another... Native shows what the jag can do 2D wise.. and so on...But the more knowledge you get (reading source for games) you start to realize that the jags full potential still isnt really shown to its fullest.... (closest being, according to me, BM as stated).
Ahh well.. this has also to do with my liking of games.. and should NOT be stated as law! =)
>There's nothing stopping us... there's always room for talk...
However, actions speak louder than words.
Let's CODE! 
Amen! =) ...
actually thought to start doing a blitter floor/ceiling rout today.. but i just had to go & check out the net first
>Please add me to your Jaguar 2D fan club.
hehe... yet you havent seen my "pathetic attempts" to 2D games!?
(or have you? ;PNo got to go coding...
cheers!
/Sym
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...foolish and dumb eyhh? ....Why you Little!... AArrgghh *strangle throught, Homer Style*
To the rest of you I say:
Dont beleive everything you read...
2nd of all:
The jaguar has great potential in Both Dimensions, just that none of them were really explored (closest came BattleMorph in 3D, and Native (I would say) in 2D).
Point should not be "arguing" about what is and what is not, but How we CAN implement it NOW!
but there are other "better" forums for that so..I leave it at that
cheers
/Symmetry
(Jaguar 2D aswell as 3D lover ! ..or should i say beleiver?
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Hi All... =)
Surpriced to get replies to that “prank”
…or its not a prank as such just a friendly joke to an old friend ..that i unfortunately havent had time to tell him untill today …so hopefully he will register here and speak for himself ..Its about time (hehe:) Though.. some personal replyes:
>>TXG: MAKE A BOMBERMAN for the JAG with (S)CATBOX support 8 players
Would be a nice “simpler” project for shure… dont know if there would be so many “potential buyers” though… but not all is about money right? =) ..but if it isn’t then it is usually about a “vision” and then it gets personal, in the sence that he would have to like bomberman to do it…
Though… from what i gather what he is dooing would be usefull for all “2D-like” games… but still…
And then there is that tiny matter of “8-scatbox support” ..comeon! =) how are we supposed to debug such a network code when he only have 1 Catbox? (or actually 2, 1 is a borrow from another friend) ..but still…
So before any more players than 2 is tested we need more jaglinks !… (or spend time in the workshop and build some).
Nice idea though.. =)
>>walter_J64bit 3D donkey kong… with granadelauncher
..You’ll have to wait a fiew years.. hehe
>>Trip_Cannon Quite the inviting domain name...
…ahhmm… perhaps my english isnt good enough to understand “inviting” but if it is, i have no further comment on that
>>Alex Czarnowski Wish 4 Mb…
..darnit.. i need to get more time, watch the UGD list thats all i can say for now.. and that it will not be for free, but a “fair price”… whatever that is..
>>JustClaws Atari 3D model demo
Sounds like an interesting demo, where can i find that? (indirectly stating that if he did it i would have seen it..
About more Photos.. i have no idea.. you would have to ask the fuck organizers, or perhaps at dhs forum (www.dhs.nu)
>>xenomorpher gory christmas
Why gory christmas? ..you mean shooting raindeers & lepricons ? =) .. that is not a realy nice “christmas spirit” is it?
..though i wanted to do something similar before the US election based on a swedish (iirc) demogroups small “demo” called “Tomtar” for the Ste/falcon.. still might do that someday when i get to much time on myhands >>Serblander Gauntlet 2000
I was a huge gauntlet fan on the oldschool computers.. and it would be a nice netplayer game… though allot & ALLOT of the work in such a game is GFX… something im not that good at.. personally i aim for “lot of gameplay based on math & not that much handdrawn gfx” which would put a “engin” lable in my forehead =)
Though there are “aids” to create GFX (halleluja for Blender! & thanx CTS for showing me to it) its still hard work… something i’d rather put down on coding..
Ahh well cheers all for replying! … hopefully some thoughts will come from Spock aswell
/Symmetry
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Finally Mr.SPOCK of TNG goes public!
check out his devsystem shown at a swedish falcon/demoscene hackerparty (Fuck) just held I Falun Sweden.
http://fuck.dhs.nu/pictures/evil/
We hope to se meny nice demos/games/ Jaguar productions from him!
(Ja allt for du stå ut med nu då du är "offentlig"
Välkommen in i klubben Cheers
/Symmetry
R&D at TNG
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Hi!
Would like to support jaglink in productions! ...but there are some (minor) hickupps regarding the "UART bugg". The only people in the world who got it to work properly doesnt seem that keen on sharing their knowledge, nor even talk about the bug (to give UGDers a chance to fix it themselfs) (or that was the feeling i got some year ago when i asked..... might just be a missunderstanding, which would make me glad!..but...).
Later a matter of Jaglinks... personally i dont have 2, or preferabely 3 catboxes (Or rather Jaglink2's/ScatBoxes) so i cant realy debug anny netcode (protocall changes much if you go from 2player jaglink to multiplayer).
Some time ago i tried to get hold of (was it?) Else engineering to talk HW implementations (which affect the software) but couldnt find his HP anymore... Since even though I dont have 3jaglinks i could still do code IF i knew how it comunicated HW wise (more exactly ie)...
Untillthen I (or the ones that work on netcode) only trye to reinvent the weel...
Thoug... netsupport is a MUST for any new jaggame!
cheers
/Sym
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Hi Y'all! =)
Starcat:
Now when i think of it I'm pritty shure they dropped it due to limitations in chip transistors. it feels like RLE needs more logic, ie more transistors. (and they were already Out of them due to gpu,dsp,gfx...)
They probably thought that: You can do the same thing with the "programmable OP" named GPU. Which you can do much more with anyhow....
And.. i kind of agree.. its better to have a "universial" processor that can do whatever you tell it to realy realy fast(GPU), than to have one specific feature chip that can only do some specified tasks (OP).
Now with the GPU you can do, rle,lzw,zip,gif,Jpeg,Wavelets,fractalpacker (like some dever mentioned to atari to trye), and so on... a better option if you ask me =)
H.Hanning:
What you describe sounds like "Mode7" mode of a old PC.. and that is far from birplanes on a ST. its more like the 8-bit mode on the jaguar... 1byte in mem = 1pixel, 0->255 values picks colours from a 256 table (clut). with ST bitplanes 4 consequtive words in mem displays 16pixels (1bit from each word (at same place in word) forms 16 different combinations (colours) that are picked from a table) which means to change 1 specific pixel you would have to update 4words... ahh well enough of that =)
CLUT/VBL:
Dont think someone did this "clasic Talion Trick"
..which would theoretically give mode than 256*x colours... (they got 32000 colours from 16! based on "cheating the eye").. would be cool from a demo/menue point of view.RLE:
..built in Entropy decoder from a "decoder table" ...=) we can all dream
Tyrant:
Think i tried to mail you once but never got any replye... took it as it was a booring mail or something =)
I would never mind diskussing demorelated stuff.... (unless they are realy realy useless for me (hehe
...swapping democode to prove points.. or whatever... (highly confidential offcourse!). >The nice thing about Jaguar is how adaptable it is, with a little thought, it can do virtually anything you ask of it.
Totally agree! ..and thats what i ment about the gpu in the beginning...
and then Im back to where i started and its time to go =)
cheers All!
/Sym
ps. Did ID's gpu C compiler differ from ataris in any more way than it added "F-cking DSP" everywhere? ...the code is totally un interleaved! ie it could be like 30-40% faster! ..geezz!... ds.
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Hi Y'all! =)
Starcat:
Now when i think of it I'm pritty shure they dropped it due to limitations in chip transistors. it feels like RLE needs more logic, ie more transistors. (and they were already Out of them due to gpu,dsp,gfx...)
They probably thought that: You can do the same thing with the "programmable OP" named GPU. Which you can do much more with anyhow....
And.. i kind of agree.. its better to have a "universial" processor that can do whatever you tell it to realy realy fast(GPU), than to have one specific feature chip that can only do some specified tasks (OP).
Now with the GPU you can do, rle,lzw,zip,gif,Jpeg,Wavelets,fractalpacker (like some dever mentioned to atari to trye), and so on... a better option if you ask me =)
H.Hanning:
What you describe sounds like "Mode7" mode of a old PC.. and that is far from birplanes on a ST. its more like the 8-bit mode on the jaguar... 1byte in mem = 1pixel, 0->255 values picks colours from a 256 table (clut). with ST bitplanes 4 consequtive words in mem displays 16pixels (1bit from each word (at same place in word) forms 16 different combinations (colours) that are picked from a table) which means to change 1 specific pixel you would have to update 4words... ahh well enough of that =)
CLUT/VBL:
Dont think someone did this "clasic Talion Trick"
..which would theoretically give mode than 256*x colours... (they got 32000 colours from 16! based on "cheating the eye").. would be cool from a demo/menue point of view.RLE:
..built in Entropy decoder from a "decoder table" ...=) we can all dream
Tyrant:
Think i tried to mail you once but never got any replye... took it as it was a booring mail or something =)
I would never mind diskussing demorelated stuff.... (unless they are realy realy useless for me (hehe
...swapping democode to prove points.. or whatever... (highly confidential offcourse!). >The nice thing about Jaguar is how adaptable it is, with a little thought, it can do virtually anything you ask of it.
Totally agree! ..and thats what i ment about the gpu in the beginning...
and then Im back to where i started and its time to go =)
cheers All!
/Sym
ps. Did ID's gpu C compiler differ from ataris in any more way than it added "F-cking DSP" everywhere? ...the code is totally un interleaved! ie it could be like 30-40% faster! ..geezz!... ds.
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Hi Y'all! =)
Starcat:
Now when i think of it I'm pritty shure they dropped it due to limitations in chip transistors. it feels like RLE needs more logic, ie more transistors. (and they were already Out of them due to gpu,dsp,gfx...)
They probably thought that: You can do the same thing with the "programmable OP" named GPU. Which you can do much more with anyhow....
And.. i kind of agree.. its better to have a "universial" processor that can do whatever you tell it to realy realy fast(GPU), than to have one specific feature chip that can only do some specified tasks (OP).
Now with the GPU you can do, rle,lzw,zip,gif,Jpeg,Wavelets,fractalpacker (like some dever mentioned to atari to trye), and so on... a better option if you ask me =)
H.Hanning:
What you describe sounds like "Mode7" mode of a old PC.. and that is far from birplanes on a ST. its more like the 8-bit mode on the jaguar... 1byte in mem = 1pixel, 0->255 values picks colours from a 256 table (clut). with ST bitplanes 4 consequtive words in mem displays 16pixels (1bit from each word (at same place in word) forms 16 different combinations (colours) that are picked from a table) which means to change 1 specific pixel you would have to update 4words... ahh well enough of that =)
CLUT/VBL:
Dont think someone did this "clasic Talion Trick"
..which would theoretically give mode than 256*x colours... (they got 32000 colours from 16! based on "cheating the eye").. would be cool from a demo/menue point of view.RLE:
..built in Entropy decoder from a "decoder table" ...=) we can all dream
Tyrant:
Think i tried to mail you once but never got any replye... took it as it was a booring mail or something =)
I would never mind diskussing demorelated stuff.... (unless they are realy realy useless for me (hehe
...swapping democode to prove points.. or whatever... (highly confidential offcourse!). >The nice thing about Jaguar is how adaptable it is, with a little thought, it can do virtually anything you ask of it.
Totally agree! ..and thats what i ment about the gpu in the beginning...
and then Im back to where i started and its time to go =)
cheers All!
/Sym
ps. Did ID's gpu C compiler differ from ataris in any more way than it added "F-cking DSP" everywhere? ...the code is totally un interleaved! ie it could be like 30-40% faster! ..geezz!... ds.
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Haha! You thought of the same idea s i did!
..make a Atari Robot.. with jaguar HW!.. preferabely named "Jaguar" ...So I/O a chamera to it via the cartslot. then run the GPUs 8x8 MMULT instructions doing a highpass edge filer, then the blitter in phrase collision detection mode surching for edges
GPU/DSP combination to do AN Network and you are almost there....
Now to compete with Sonys dog, you would have to teach it fetching the flippers & a newspaper
)ahh well...
RLE: ...aarrggh!.. thought at sounded familiar when i read it.. but had no idea such a USEFULL fearute was even considered! ..that would have been nice! ... Isnt RLE a big part of GIF format? ...guess they whanted "the future" instead... starting as jpeg.. ending up as bpeg (change of name).
but still...
/Symmetry
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(assume RLE=bitplanes?)
Well.. it would have made conversions of atari ST/STE (and falcon) games much MUCH easier! ..and beleive it or not (usually noone does
bitplanes can be nice to have sometimes!... (mostly since you dont have to clear all screen mem to erase, a starfield for example)... though a similar effect can be made with OP objects...but drawing in bitplanes is a MENACE! ...(see all those c2p (chunky2Planar) things on the Atari/amiga) so it is not realy for fast 2D/3D games... imagine thats why they left it out...
I for one dont realy miss bitplanes... the OP is much more powerful and it can do similar things with its 8bit clut (and it is easier to port 8bit PC games that way (smell Doom?)).
..hmm.. it wasnt you who scanned this pdf? ...then where did i get it? =) was pritty shure i got it from you.. but i can be wrong! =)
cheers!
/Sym
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Thanx ALLOT! Stephen!
(So it was passprotected!.. thought that was a demo pfdripper thing) ..Starcat might have the pass then..(or?)
..I´ll take down the file now.. since its not realy needed by anone anymore =)
about realtime: well.. making a tan/atan approximation using Euler expansion, and or trig lookuptables could make it run faster...
...but i honestly beleive Edgedetection can be made in a easier, more camerafriendly, colourmode... its just a matter of finding a suitable filter (B&W feels good for me, if there is just finding objects in screen). (like done in B&W x-ray scans)..
ahh well... Thanx! =)
cheers
/Sym
(US related: Vote JFK on electionday!
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I've long thought we should get into long email chats, you think the way I do, I think
Are you talking to me or someone else? =) ...you mean you think in Swedish.. Cool
Då kanske vi skall börja mailbomba varandra då eller =) ..speciellt demo code Anyhow: Hate surching stuff on the internet! ...could not find any PDF ripper... so Here is the hole file! at my "small & ugly home" (Big Thanx to CTS!)
http://ctsnlc.homelinux.net/~symmetry/Jagu...efMan920612.pdf
Warning its a 4Mb file!
The ones that are interested in CRY conversion can get it, the rest: dont sink the server (its a Big file
Get the newest manual instead its more valid & up to date.Cheers! & Good luck with your Robotics project!
/Sym
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well...anyhoooow...
I think the MPEG thing is verry interesting.. I for one would realy like to play mpeg videos on my jaguar... Perhapps not as much for viewing movies as to include them in my productions.. (ie rather mpeg1 than cinepak).
So.. even though the HW is a truly interesting thing, i dont think i would sell more than one game then, Glenn
if i were to support it....but.. I know i am the only one "stupid" enough to think/whant this but a mpeg1 player based on a GPU&DSP solution? ...
I know it is farfetched and probably a wste of time but someday i would like to try!..
So.. my qyestion is: anyone got a MPEG1 source (video or video+audio) that MUST be based on max 16bit integer math... that would be a good start =)
anyhow keep the motion dreams alive!
/Sym
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Unity and a different vindaloo.
in Atari Jaguar
Posted
Hi!
(check your mail
Ahha.. figured.. now when you mention it I seem to recall reading something like that years ago... never understood why he aimed for gamecube.. (he probably not, his sponsor did =)
Anyhow: I'm also some kind of "YaK fan" (or of his game/coding skills atleast) so its ok =)
Always whanted to trye somethig like that myself, make my own Jaguar DSP optimised FFT and just go bazurk with the blitter&GPU ...but i mean its not realy something "usefull" for a game community.. but only a cool effect (really cool.. but still =)
My startingpoint wold be the "Whipp!" pluggin for the falcon.. which does similar things and has allot of cool effect to it already... (think the source is out there aswell... atleast to some of the pluggins (iirc))
perhapps when i finish all my other jaguar projects (..Haha... i mean year 3010
cu!
/Sym