Symmetry of TNG

Hi again! I am the garbage can of useless knowledge! (quoting this is strictly forbidden! But my memory served me right... So Tyrant, your scanned manual is the "newer version" ..I think I have 3 in total, one realy old (the one i ment, 92 i think) a secound one, scanned, and then the newest one we all use. And there IS! a included C program that "created the above table" ..(ie the table that atari only included later). It contains allot of trigonometry (ie as atari says "not for realtime conversions" ..but that was then and this is now, it might be doable RealTime on todays processors.. as said its a 4Mb pdf.. and if you whant the code I can ripp that page for you (I hope!.. need to find a pdf editor first... pdf is a open format nowadays right?). Sorry for the late trplye ..but that is as it is.. atleast I am trying to be helpful:) CRY easier for edge detection? ...humm... is it realy dependent on the CRY color format, dont you just need the intensity? ....I mean I would do a simple highpass filder on a BW image.. (ie only the intensity is needed, ie CRY would be ok.. but only need the intensity part). ..and train a ANN to look for objects... But perhapps you are doing something more advanced in colorspace? I'll check for the pdf editor & mail you the page.. (if i find your email, or i will contact you here). cheers! /Sym ps. port your robot code to the jaguar! ds

Hi! ...seen no reason to do this "on the fly" in a jag program, when there are so menny tools around (JagView should do something similar, TGA2CRY, and the fact that you can have both RGB&CRY screens open at the same time on a jaguar (in the mixed mode).... ---But that is not what i was going to say --- I seem to remember the DevMan "table" beeing a C program in the early devman that was posted way back! (for example the one that was scanned by StarCat ..on his 1st homepage). Perhapps this C code is what you want... Íf someone know what i am talking about and have access to a pdf "pageripper" or whatever and can post the page here, thatd be great... if not I might send you the pdf.. (perhapps... might be attache limits.. but anyhow). Though I'd sugest you to solve it in another manner cheers /Sym

Hi! No im affraid not! Actually the feast cam like a shook.. its this wekend right? (or was it last week?) .... If, or wohould i say When!, ever i go on such a thing I would like to to be atleast 3 days! (making the tripp more "worth" the money =) ..with coding, gaming, jaguar lectures/brainstorms... but oneday... about demos: ...wish i had something new and much improved... but... :/ I hope that some of the demos gets released to the public later.. its inspiering to se... need inspiration badly! about upgrade.... keep your eyes open! ....I´ll let ugd people know when/IF i have an offer to make (soon hopefully)... cheers! hope you have a nice time there! (any chance of a webcam server? ....so i can viritually be there? /Sym

Dont know if it was planned but: AvP with network! ....CS like thing where you team up Alien/Predator/Marine teams and fight it out over a network... ..Would have kicked @$$ and probably ben as popular as cs is today.. ...A man can dream.... a man can dream... =) /Sym

Hi! As some of you know I did the same thing to my 2Mb alpine (cost was only approx 200sek ~27euro but still). Did not follow Glenns description that much (hot air gun sounded like a bit riscy) But in general it gave me the currage to trye... But using techniques i have experience with which were much less riscy.. as you all said it can NOT break!.. it would be a blow on atari history ..and i can say that i have now sucessfully done this upgrade on 2 alpines extremely sucessfull! =) ..(it fixed the problem my friend had with wierd mirrors in memory during upl's... the only problem we now both have is problem with upls on new fast PCs... but thats normal =) on my slow 433 it works 100% ok! every single time). ..No chance but if Sweden is closer to anyone I can do upgrade... if "customer" pays all (underline!) costs mail any questions.. cheers /Sym --far up north--

I would say that there isnt that much "jaguar specific" in the code.. it could be rewritten to utilise the jag in a much MUCH beter way.. They were not interested in dooing a super engine but to get the current one running on the Jag.... selling games. A complete remake of the code using "todays standard" in terms of rendering and todays knowledge of the Jag would be a horribly great engine =) ....(written/optimised in pure Jaguar assembler offcourse) ...but there is noone in the jagscene that has such time... I am sorry to say! ...neither is there any, call it "wish" to colaborate, to get to the goal faster... but rather some kind of "competing"... dont know why but this is how i feel... sad realy.. Played some "team" networking in doom lately and it was realy fun... (even though the easy "doom fix" didnt solve the problem 100%)Networking games in general is the future and where the true fun is found. And a new working doom engine/game would defenitely find its way to my collection =) my.... 0.1cent /Sym

I think the "Bit competition" started back then, when they started to see that people thought "more bits means better" ..and this is a debate that is going on even today (apparently =). The fact that not exactly all of its components is 64 bit makes (to me) little difference, since it is 64 bit where it is needed the most, ie when it comes to moving data around in memory. that is what realy matters. the fact that the gpu uses 32bit in its register is.... well.. to me, its a menace! ....i cant imagine a mashine that has 64bits or higher bits when what you actlay want is 16bits 4 times faster! =) atleast to manipulate 16bit grafixs. The only complaint in it is actually not bit related, but memory related... more internal memory (would give better possibility to have colorfull grafixs) and blitter cache!! ...to speed texturemapping up considerabely! ..(and while Im at it God darnit No mask on A2, its useless, put it on A1 !!!! =) So speak about memory not bits Quàpla /Sym

Hi! I would say that the jaguar was "abandoned" by developers as well as atari before it got to show off its fullest potential. Lack of atari support and the state of atari in general i would say caused developers to dropp out or abandone it. If the gpu/dsp C compiler would have gotten more developing and produce nice optimised code then i think we would have seen more "high quality" games... in both terms of technical potential, better grafixs & better gameplay. I think most developers were "affraid" to get into hardcore GPU assembler (which is needed to get best code...) and hence used either "homemade" 3D grafixs or used ataris 3D library... which could use some optimisation! Take for example the Doom code by ID, which are considered to be exelent coders. As far as i understand there is not one line of pure "handmade" gpu assembler in it (reservation for errors but instead it is almost a "straight" port of the previous C code, and the C code that needed to be faster they compiled with a "homemade" c compiler... so everything C... Now the jag is a bit special to get to work at full power and i would say C is not the answer... But yet games like Battlemorph realy shows off the jaguars potential and gives a glimse of what games could have been like.. (BM is, according to me, the most technically impressive game ever made to the jaguar, this i base on years of coding knowledge and without seeing more than "urine" commersials of BS, which someone might say is technically more advanced, but i say not). my 10cent /Sym

Hi! ..and pardon the realy slow replye... but as you said there are other things in life than hanging out at this forum >Thanks for the blitter info. I don't know much about the jag blitter yet. It is one of the most powerful chip in the jaguar... but also one of the buggiest >Did you use the blitter in your small "fire" prog to do the "averaging"? No... well not exactly... it is a "true fire" average.. ie average of sum of top & three below. ...so that is done with gpu... but in order to get some kind of fps (ie avoid external loads!!) i used circular buffers & blitted the table into the gpu in phrasemode (and later the result back to screen). And also did a quite nonunderstandable optimized "two pixels at a time" average with the gpu... in a "DSP" kind of fasion (where you prep the loop so it becomes a loopable thing later). Thats the fastest way i know howto on the jaguar... (except if you go to 8bit grafix.. then it might be done faster... ...if you doo your loop for 4 pixels at a time ...but.... no =) But to make a "afterglow" kind of average in the other demos i made (warum & warum Texturemap) i used the blitter. and that is what you do in your demo (i think .... just draw on 2 screens (without clear) and then every frame subtract a constant value from the previous screen (with saturate) ..and this is exactly what the SRCSHADE thing does in the jaguar. and it can be done in phrasemode (ie 64bits or 4 pixels at a time). Ahh well.. using the gpu is NEVER bad! =) stick to it & use it always to learn it good.... it will be worth it!. =) >I prefer retro effects. It reminds me on the good old days when I was younger haha =) yes... we all have our reasons for liking retro stuff ...though i must agree... =) "the good old days"... >It's sad that the jag pretty much lacks a demo scene Must agree with your sadness.... in my oppinion the jaguar is the most powerfull atari EVER made, and it could make amasing demos!... running on 790Mb CD... blowing your mind away for hours.... *sigh* well i can dream... =) keep it up! cheers /Sym

Hi! Holger >When I have the time I'll try to do something more interesting in 3D. look forward to it ! if u want to talk about 3D dont hesitate to throw out a question =) >Both programs don't use the blitter, pixel processing is done by the GPU, the rest is 68k. So the "averaging" to get the "afterglow" is done by GPU? ...=) it can be done with the blitter BlittSchnell u know ...by using the sourceshade function.. Ahh well.. its still a nice thing.. i 4 one like wireframe.. gives me retro atari demo feelings =) keep up the good work. cheers /Sym

Hi! =) Well... i guess i am "splitting words" a bit.. but it is not turned off by writing that value to VI just that the irq will be 65536 halflines away.. ie it will "never happen" =) but the op is always running.. same thing with other "do not touch" registers... was it VBE (?)... vertical blank end... that needs to be big enough so that it will not stop the op. I see no reason why one should not be able to alter VI more than once (in the beginning)... just that it will "muck up the screen" =) ..or turn it black As long as there is 2 branches before each object pointing to a stopobject it should be ok.. The only thing that happens when you write to the VI is that you "delay" the VBL interrupt.. ie the routine that resets your OLP (&fixes altered object values).. just that the V&H count will be so off that the to branches2Stop will allways occure.. But Use atari setup & be safe! =)

Hi! =) No it is not! ....If I/we are to trust atari the OP can NEVER be turned off once it is running (not safely anyway). And this is what atari stressed and always told developers to do (and i strongly sugest any coder to do) This is why it has to be 2 branch objects before each bitmapobject, this is why some of the hardware video registers have to have specific values, and so on, not to cause the OP to stop.... There is a difference between pointing the OP to a stopobject, writing $ffff,VI and turning the OP OFF!! The 2 first is ok, the lastone is not.... IF you are to trust atari.. and i do! =) my 2 cents in the interest of facts =) Btw Wellcome Holger! =) always nice to see coders that can do a bit of 3D (is that pure 68K all the way? ...including "after glow" ? or do you use the blitter? cheers /Sym

some short test later: T2K "interlace" flickers in x direction, true.. not in y as usual... dont realy know what it does actually? ...also i didnt notice it when playing only in options menue (ok i might have been to buzy shooting THEM! THEM! THEM! In the demo stage: 720x240 is defenitely doable! (16bit CRY or RGB) 1440x240 should also be doable in an easy way (ie supported by jaguar console hardware). in Y direction... well give me some more debuging time, yesterday I got half way to interlace but i need more time Though how to get 480 without interlace on a TV i dont know... (is it possible?) i just know that all ST computers (& the falcons VIDEL chip that is similar to the jaguars have interlace if res is higher than 240). That would be interesting to know how it is done. But i agree... if u have a CD as medium then any menue or stills SHOULD be in higher rez... why? because it can! =) Where can i download the Jaguar Engine or what it was called? cheers /Sym

Think? =) Beleive in the Symmetry... The Symmetry is good.. 2 Gunstar: I actually agree... it would be usefull for a coupla of games & gamers out there. and perhapps if other "unreleased" games come out (BIWN? SoulStar? or whatever). That was the reason why I would defenitely make it 100% free... But since I am one of them, I atleast have inspiration to do it =) I own no "HW-bypass" method, except my BJL jag, thats why I made the BJL-cdbypass prg, for my own purpose =) ---Anyhow... To give you a sign of progress I can say like this: The program works under BJL now!!! =) Took me 1day to do it, though I had to debug an error made by someone in a include file I used (or it would have been done in 10min!). What remains is user gfx, "swap disk" or similar. & make that work with all files out there (thinking of 1.9Mb slam racer). that might be a bit problematic. (though the code works with it now, but now there is no usr gfx! just blank screens of different color). OR if i am to do it 4 real, I could make a "demo like" loader, with some 3D gfx in or whatever, but that would delay the code even further. Next on list is to learn about the CD authentication process, that i know nothing about atm. just to keep uall posted =) cheers /Sym

Well It would defenitely be possible for me to alter my bjl program a bit to accept a cdchange. the thing I am curious about now is how the CD encryption program works, and if i need an alpine to encode a program. If so I will not be able to do it, since i only have a bjl jag. Also dont whant to waste a hole bunch of CDr-s to debug the encode process..... But! I might create the program and have someone else do the encryption ...but it will take a bit longer "remote debugging" isnt that fast =) But I could defenitely look it up when i have time. (but once again, it would only be useful for less than a handfull of "new/old" games) but atleast they would then be accessible to people without a bypassmethod (how menny does actually not own one today? =) ahh well... will check it out. cheers /Sym

Hi! Interesting thought... I se no reason why I couldnt adapt my BJL bypasscode to boot an unencrypted CD.. I could (in theory add a smallsetupcode & some "swap CD" gfx (which is what is missing). CD-Encode that and make an .iso burnable by most burners. And it would be free! ... Biggest trouble right now is Time (or rather lack of it), but adding a "wait for CDswap" thing wouldnt be a big problem (atleast for a v.0.5, ie no fancy grafix for now). Learning how to use the CD encryption thing might be biggest "obsticle" (though i doubt it is one =) So for people who dont whant to buy a game just to play those demo games, it would be 100%free & perhapps worth the wait..... or? just a thought =) /Symmetry

Hi! But, it will not be worth it! I built my own (just for fun) but it turned out to be more expencive than a new one (when they were £15 or so) and defenitely more expencive than ones that you can find on ebay.. and then that one has nice atari contacts, jaguar logos & whatever on it =) So unless you whant to do a "5V-cross" connection using just a cable, then Id sugest you to go hunting on ebay instead, it will be cheaper & look much better =) cheers /Sym

Hi Tyrant! & Thanx for the realy nice words! =) some comments: (some might exist in the info.txt file but anyhow Yes the voxel is verry nice =) ..at the moment best seen via a RF cable, making a natural "bluur" Tunnel: I assume here is what you ment "4 axis" buggs? ..well actually it isnt a bug, it just appears like that due to lack of double buffer... Last weeks i rewrote thw Hole thing to see if it ran any faster using pure GPU & blitter in phrase mode.. and i can say that at the moment there is no visual buggs (kind of spoiling the news here but u asked for it But I will make some more uppdates before i release any new demo... Lasy controls: I assume you mean the Wolf3d code... =) ..Yes I AM "lasy".. but considering there is noone to ask about "jaguar methods what works and what is slow" I would say othervise =) ...I just wrote that code to see how fast the blitter would work in pixelmode & see around what fps count a raycaster would be at.... implementing control wasnt important to test that (though that code exist in the voxel source... but still... I desided to release it NOW instead of waiting, striving for "perfection" :-) (connexion date made that). So now you know =) The good thing about this is that now you know that there is improvements made =) ....(just imagine all you dont know that i am dooing Thanx again for the nice words! ...it is inspiering! THNX! /Symmetry

=0) Knowing Atari they would probably name it after another predator.. I would have called it Atari - T-Rex nice it would have killed anything on the market =) ..though I would have had a 56301 dsp instead.. with 100 Motorola DSP-MIPS I could preform miracles

...just a note... its supposed to be a ".org" ending of that url... not a .net =)

HoleySmoke! =) Guess this is the best christmaspresent I could ever get! =) Now i see great visions of my hard jaguar work getting finished to something beautiful booting from a CD!!! =0) Eternal Greets Curt!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ) /Symmetry (now optimistic about new jaguar CD games)

Just thought to see how this thread turned out before i replyed ;o) Semms there is allot of CDs out there but only, about 40 different users that could run a game produced. anyhow just thought to say that I also have Some jaguars & a CD unit. bypassmethod: well.. the so called "useless" BJLBypass that i developed myself. Though not useless for me, cheapest bypassmethod to date! only requirement is a BJL mod =) (what I'd like to see is more CD games requiering a bypass!!!! ) cheers /Sym

Hi! Sorry for the late replye.. Thanx! for the nice words =) some short komments: Tyrant: Fire: well.... just wait untill you see what I had originally intended for it ;o) Are you shure it was exactly the same programm or did you see something else? (would be interested in seeing any other fire code that is out there, too see if it is faster than mine Though this is nothing "playable" it will make a very nice intro/demo /greetings screen for a game. (though at the moment such things have less priority than something playable/ engines, but I will make it at some point). Raycaster: well.. at 320x200 in pixelmode it is as "fast" as it is... though it could probably be made faster (shure of it!). and btw it supports different textures & true lightshaded walls... just that i didnt include that in that version (to see the bug more clearly). another thing about the simplicity of raycasters on the jaguar... there is nothing simple about them since all code is written without any debugging tools. Im amased it even runns =) When can i compare my version to yours? .PRG: Yes.. =) I'm sorry i think it is a "leftover" from some BJL programs made by Bastian. and beeing a true Atarian i have made it an habbit to name the purebinary jaguar files .prg =0) ...they are not atari computer executable files like someone might beleive, sorry for that =) (but i have seen .bin files that were .jag and vice versa, .prg files that were bin and so on so I guess there is no problem here everything is as usual =) Thanx again everyone! /Symmetry

Just whanted to say that the files are now uploaded at the jaguar homebrew group at yahoo and some pictures of the demos can be seen at: http://ctsnlc.homelinux.net/~symmetry/ (Thanx to Matthias! 4 screenshots) still interested in any comments on these... positive or "kreative" =) cheers /Symmetry