justclaws
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Posts posted by justclaws
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Well I can think of (counts on fingers) 1,2,3,4, maybe 5/6 projects
ongoing with by Underground programmers that support the E2PROM.
Protector SE and the B&C bypass (with E2PROM fitted) can be easily
supported, as well as using a "spare" production cartridge with BJL,
as a "save cartridge". (You put one cart aside per UGD game...)
The 2K E2PROM of the Protector/SE and BS/Gold is supported, in
some cases, but in each case people have coded for 128 bytes,
just like the production carts, B&C bypass likewise with 2K chip.
The big issue at the moment for Underground programmers is how
to support BattleSphere Gold cartridges when the Underground had
an already agreed system for allocating space on the 2K E2PROMS,
but Scatalogic has another approach incompatible with that system.
It is a pity that compatibility may be lost due to that disagreement,
when the UGD system was agreed by discussion, and not dictated.
I hope that discussion is ongoing out of our normal forums on this.
During the last days i tried to find a point where all the trouble started,
and i think it might be this posting. You know, somebody always has to throw the first stone, and i guess that Doug thinks the above statements were such a stone. And he began to throw back ....
Well really, if I had thrown a stone, it'd be big, and would not go far!
As it was, no stone throwing was intended, but I do admit frustration!
I guess the bold bit could be misinterpreted - SORRY THUNDERBIRD!
However, the bit in italics above surely would tell you I am hopeful.
I'd just love to see some progress, the UGD standard has been "on-
hold" for many weeks, pending your input on compatibility with BSG.
If two versions of every game have to be produced, so be it, but that
is not a safeguard to EEPROM saves, people will run the wrong one...
From the knowledge of today both parties say that the other party didn't asked for help or spoke about new developments (BSG on the one side, PSE with Underground-E2prom-standard on the other side). And each party thinks itself would be right....
Well you know Matthias the discussion started about the Protector SE
2K EPROM (and other 2K E2PROMS) long before Scatologic released
BSG, but the problem was this was in our "secretive Underground".
Of course had UGD-JAG known about BSG, or Thunderbird have been
able to find the Underground mailing list maybe all would be well now.
At least this lead to the state that both parties are now speaking together and clear some points (even if it looks more like shouting each other).
Well I am glad that some discussion has resulted between Scatologic
and UGD-JAG members on this, if this is our only conversation forum,
but I am still disheartened that all we have achieved to-date is a long
list of problems, and not a single positive move towards a solution...
It's Nick (Stone) I feel sorry for most here, getting thrown back and
forwards across this discussion, I hope he doesn't get injured here.
Regards,
Richard / JustClaws.
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I think this is the problem. Your "invitation only" policy is making the Jaguar development community gather in secret and gives the distinct impression to anyone outside that there's no coordination or sharing of information, no place to gather, and no place for anyone to learn about development...
Well the thing is that we are a group of individuals working on our
own projects, for fun, not for profit, and I really don't want to do
the job of "marketing" the Atari Jaguar as a development platform.
The "web-ring" nicely links active developers, that enough for us.
You and Songbird (as publishers) have real reasons to do marketing!
You sell JUGS as the "first complete development system" (I forget,
does that mean you sell it complete with Brainstorms "Mac", "ALN"
and so forth?) and I think people finding that, or "Jag Development
Club" or the new "JagDev.Org" or other sites will find what they want.
It just takes a simple google search and a person can find all sorts of groups and links to developing for the Dreamcast or the 2600, etc.
So??? Does this mean we should drop the Jaguar, and go out to buy
ourselves a Dreamcast? I develop for the Jaguar because I like to
do so, I bought the devkits because I wanted to, even though doing
so was costly, and I continue because the Jaguar is fun and my main
games platform, even now. (I also own 2600, 7800, Lynx and N64,
so you can see I'm not a die-hard Atari fan, but why must I upgrade?)
I'll probably still be writing games for the Jaguar in another 7 years
time, if my equipment keeps running, even if I'm ALONE in doing so!
(I bet I won't be.) I don't need to impress people, I develop for fun.
Why is it that the Jaguar underground must work behind closed doors in secret?
Did you read my first post in the discussion about why most amateur developers these days do not talk about their projects. Please do...
In fact, you said YOU develop in secret, and gave various reasons...
I bet if you asked that Atari Age could probably even host a BB for underground developers. Perhaps it could be set up so people could read but not post unless they were members (like the other boards here).
There are Jaguar development boards out there if you look. However,
the fact is, who cares? We're happy chatting together, as friends, and
helping each other out. Nobody is "marketing" the Jaguar. It's not a
cool machine, we're not "in it for the money", just "in it for the fun".
If a Jaguar fan wants to start developing, that's much more sensible
than an existing developer looking around for new platforms to port
their projects too. If they're so keen to do so, they'll do so anyway!
Regards,
Richard (JustClaws)
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Hello,
Now I can see some misunderstanding...
The final group is called Jaguar homebrew, and I recall signing on to this one about 2 years ago and quitting after it never took off. I believe that Richard himself is the moderator of this one. This board averages 3.25 messages a month. I can't see them messages, so I have no idea if they are real or robots posting them.
This group was started with the EXPLICIT purpose of being a low-
bandwidth group intended only for announcements of new Jaguar
home-brew games and tools, and for minimum discussion between
ordinary Jaguar home-brew players and Jaguar developers. So in
that respect I think it is fulfilling the stated objectives admirably...
It is NOT, and NEVER WAS intended as a Jaguar developer forum!!!
I don't know why this group is in "stealth" mode. You'd think they would want to get the word out. In all the Jaguar sites I go to, I don't think I ever saw a link or a banner ad for any of these groups. Nobody ever emailed me and asked to put an ad up on the ScatoLOGIC site.
Well the group is for developers, and does not "advertise" anything,
we're not selling anything, or boasting about our work. One of the
self-imposed rules is to keep the group "hype free" generally, as
Jaguar fans we've seen enough vapourware come and go. We are
not a team, we are just individual developers helping each other...
Nobody competes with each other, and membership is by invitation.
The only thing I ever was asked to do was put a link to the Jaguar Console Developers Webring on www.buyjugs.com, which I happily did do. Other than that, nothing.
Well on that note, if you follow the web-ring, you will find who are
the other Jaguar members, and you will find out about any projects
that they are willing to talk about. Incidentally I also asked if maybe
Scatologic would have a web-ring link, and you referred me on, but
nothing ever came of that. Now you maintain it, and BuyJugs is now
no more, perhaps you could add a link to the Scatologic site instead.
Regards,
Richard / JustClaws.
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Unfortunately, the underground contains a large number of super great people but have mixed in with some bad apples who have proven in the past to be unable to keep a secret (and still are leaking thinkgs even today).
Can you give me any example of what has been leaked in the past, as I am not aware of the "Underground" list ever being party to information from you or about your projects, either 1st-hand or 2nd-hand. As the information is about leaked information in the past it cannot now be secret and I could then identify these supposed bad apples we have.
I've been asked this question before and I'd agree in principal to the idea, but there are a few things in the UGD method which need to be tweaked before everyone commits to it.
I would be pleased to hear an elaboration on this, and we can take your input even now, after all we already suggested the "TINY" slot that could be subdivided by you at your pleasure for these tiny save projects.
The problem with the underground is they have buried themselves underground and don't even tell people how to communicate with them.
Well you know how to communicate with us, you know that all of the known developers are in the group, only the secret developers working with Scatologic are not. You've been invited before and turned us down.
You guys need to have a message board or mailing list that is not disused and doesn't move or change locations. Since nobody ever recruits new members either, you should do that as well (like here on AA).
Well I'm been part of the same active UGD-JAG group since about 1996, and you've never joined that group at any time, I'm not sure what you did join but it wasn't the UGD-JAG group, and that group has only moved twice (by group member consensus) twice over that period anyway.
As to being disused, how many hundred messages per month are required, if up to 20-30 a day is disused, then it is. However, whenever anybody has a question, or a problem, everybody helps them, friend to friend, and constructive criticism on individual projects is always given.
I've seen the specs for your standard. You're not trying to tell me that out of all you fantastic programmers out there that you guys put your heads together and came up with that kludge? I'd have never agreed with it even if I was aware of it.
So you mean that you won't ever agree to work on compatibility with the other developers that exist now if it is based on this standard, even if the reserved space is made for these various unknown Scatologic projects?
To me your specification is fundamentally flawed, and handicaps coders.
I've talked with underground people in the recent past, and I think both sides have misconceptions of the other. We're on the same team here. I hope we can work out differences or opinion.
Team is the point, your posts about "sides" are unfortunate as at the end of day we are coding for an old machine with limited resource, because it gives us pleasure, and that is why a solution has to be open to everyone.
You make it sound like the underground is an unfriendly place where people work around behind the backs of everyone and argue or persecute everyone with different views.
Well you indeed describe a group which has no relation to that which I know. I have known the members in most cases for years, and what you describe about private dissatisfaction about the group agreements suggests that you are talking to people that are not even IN the group. In our group everybody can voice their opinion without any back stabbing.
Just the term "investigate" makes it sound like a crime for someone to go off on their own and discuss with people outside the group things like standards and such. I hope this is a misconception.
Well please substitute the words "learn about" for "investigate". If there is a new standard agreed with you, privately discussed, I'd like to learn about it so I can modify my code if that proves beneficial. I'd like to learn about things that the "top developers" (who are they?) have discussed.
Regards,
Richard. (JustClaws)
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Hello,
> Regarding the EEPROM. I'll never quite understand it but for reasons
> known only to them, the underground chose to go in a completely
> different direction before, during, and after the release of Battle-
> Sphere Gold.
>
Well let me explain. As the Underground developers had talked about
future cartridges using larger E2PROMS in future cartridges for some
months, (in fact years,) before BattleSphere Gold was released, and
nobody realised it would have a bigger E2PROM too a standard was
created that everybody in the Underground agreed, "by consensus".
Fortunately Scatologic's system will easily work as a "subset" of the
UGD-JAG method, providing that Scatologic agrees to cooperate too.
> Nobody in the underground ever bothered to ask about our standard
> and never bothered to contact us regarding development of a sensible
> and practical standard.
>
Well this is due largely to the fact that you do not communicate with
the Underground group, it would be nice if there was a "meta group"
which combined discussed between the UGD-JAG members, those
"mystery" developers working Scatalogic, and Scatalogic directly,
because the "underground" teams don't hear any communication.
Your "standard" was created in isolation by Scatologic unfortunately
without consulting any of the Underground developers - not me, or
Krunch, or Matthias, or Bastian, or Starcat, or Sinister, or Mr.Well,
or Scott, or Force Design, or BadCoder, or any of the rest I think.
These people had input to the UGD-JAG ones, and many others...
I think perhaps you are confused about who the Underground are,
maybe you think we don't like Scatologic, if so, you're very wrong!
> This is an ongoing background project. Several ideas have been
> discussed, and consensus with some of the top underground dev-
> elopers has been achieved.
>
This is interesting, I hope that these "top underground developers"
communicate the nature of the "consensus" to the UGD-JAG group
very shortly, in fact I've kicked off a UGD-JAG thread to investigate.
Regards,
Richard. (JustClaws)
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Hello,
> So far, no homebrew CD games have come out which make use of
> the EEPROM to save games, so it's probably not a really important
> feature in the current situation.
>
Well I can think of (counts on fingers) 1,2,3,4, maybe 5/6 projects
ongoing with by Underground programmers that support the E2PROM.
Protector SE and the B&C bypass (with E2PROM fitted) can be easily
supported, as well as using a "spare" production cartridge with BJL,
as a "save cartridge". (You put one cart aside per UGD game...)
The 2K E2PROM of the Protector/SE and BS/Gold is supported, in
some cases, but in each case people have coded for 128 bytes,
just like the production carts, B&C bypass likewise with 2K chip.
The big issue at the moment for Underground programmers is how
to support BattleSphere Gold cartridges when the Underground had
an already agreed system for allocating space on the 2K E2PROMS,
but Scatalogic has another approach incompatible with that system.
It is a pity that compatibility may be lost due to that disagreement,
when the UGD system was agreed by discussion, and not dictated.
I hope that discussion is ongoing out of our normal forums on this.
> Because the B&C cart has no EEPROM, I'd expect that most dev-
> elopers will always have to have a backup system like a password
> or something to avoid having to support EEPROMS that many people
> won't have.
>
From the projects I am thinking of, they all support E2PROM and I
am not aware of anybody having coded password based systems
for save-game, because everybody hates that system as used on
games like Telegames/Teque "World Tour Racing", it's impractical.
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
There are a surprising number of projects "on the go" at the
moment, but the thing is that everybody is reluctant to say
anything about them because of the following few problems.
a) Everybody announcing anything gets flamed as a "fake".
b) Anybody announcing anything gets flamed for being slow.
c) People releasing demos get complaints if it's not "64 bit".
d) People releasing demos get very little, if any user feedback.
e) Nearly everybody wants everything developed to be free.
f) Lots of people think that Jaguar programmers should work
full-time on their projects, and give all their efforts away.
g) Anybody selling anything gets flamed for "taking advantage
of the market" when in fact they're just recovering costs...
h) Nearly every ROM is now dumped and pirated for emulators,
and people doubt that they will ever get any decent returns.
i) All the game demos to-date have been labelled P.D. when in
fact they are not, other people redistribute them for profit...
j) Many people want commercial quality projects as bit and as
completed as BattleSphere, but want them now or yesterday.
k) People want games to run without modification, or extras.
That said, I'm both working on code still, have been since 1995
on and off, and I'm helping others both by play-testing and also
by contributing bits of code and information as the case needs.
However, don't expect a BattleSphere from me any time soon!
I'll need at least 15 years, because there were 3 programmers
working on BattleSphere, for 5 years, and I'm working alone.
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
> Yeah sure I want to play doom, just come this weekend to 'Schiphol
> Airport' in the Netherlands and I will be there to get you and I will
> drive you to my house where we can play networked DOOM the
> whole weekend.... let me know....
>
So how far are you from Schiphol airport? I'm in Noordwijk area...
I've not played network DOOM in a while, do you have an M series
Jaguar, I've found them MUCH more reliable, and I've got Jaglink-2.
Also Aircars and/or BattleSphere would be an option, what say you?
One week-end we could indeed do some Jaguar net gaming perhaps!
Are you up for helping me organize the next €JagFest if Lars can't?
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
Surely you need two Scatboxes, or a Jaglink, or a Jaglink and Jaglink-2?
I know that the Scatbox is good, but I thought you only get one in a box?
I'm still saving up for one though...
Regards,
Richard.
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Hello,
Actually, head over there, small changes that are keeping
the board as the easy access board we all know and love,
but which will give us all a gradually nicer environment,
are under way, right now... to address the big problems!
In order to provide a better environment for JI2 users
whilst still providing the easy to access environment
for JI2 users, profiles will be available in due course.
This will allow you to have a profile page, with a post
code, that will display you as a "registered" JI2 user.
Such users will have their names highlighted, even if
they do not give an email address, it should help us.
Additional views of the board will be available that
can filter out non-registered users and those who do
not provide an email address, and the blocking of the
users who spoil the board for others will be logged.
An additional option is frames, these have been long
in coming, but you will be able to see a frame view
if you want in due course, but it will not be default.
I've read the various messages that people have posted
over the years on this board, and hope that these new
changes that are in testing now will make the board a
nice place to frequent, whilst keeping the easy access.
It will still look and feel just like the same old JI2 too!!
It's always here... http://www.atarihq.com/interactive/
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
Jaguar Interactive II is back, the hosting company has fixed
the CGI-BIN operation, but unfortunately not the FTP access
so AtariHQ cannot do any updates, but it's most of the way!
Cheers,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
I just thought I could clear up one point of misunderstanding.
> I find the RS232 Port to be very interesting. I know the Catbox
> has one but I haven't heard what it could be used for. In the specs
> it says the port is used to connect a PC, Mouse or other peripherals.
> Sounds very interesting.
>
The serial port (RS-232) is actually a feature of the Jaguar chipset,
but the signal levels for RS-232 are different to the of the Jaguar
itself, so the Scatbox will provide the appropriate RS-232 levels
for compatibility. Atari Jag-Link, and Else Jag-Link-2 do this too.
I believe the Catbox also provides an RS-232, if Scatbox does.
The original BattleSphere cartridge uses the Jaguar serial port to
talk to a PC to send screen shots, and to load home-brew games
and demos. The actual "enabler" provided by JUGS (which is the
cable adapter and software for the PC, and the special software
only built into BattleSphere and BS Gold) connects to the Atari
Jag-Link at the Jaguar end, so RS-232 is quite popular already.
This means that any peripherals that would be created to plug-
into the Jaguar using an RS-232 port (and there is no reason
why a normal modem cannot be connected- it's been done...)
will also work with the other devices opening a wider market.
So... thanks to Scatbox users have more choice, and when or
if anything is released to connect to the RS-232 port (beyond
another Jaguar with a Jag-Link,) then users have more choice!!!
(Finally, there are Underground demos which already use an
Atari ST mouse with the Jaguar, and code has been published
among the Underground developers to do this, which is nearly
the same as supporting a rotary controller. These devices of
course plug into either Jaguar joypad port, or a Teamtap...)
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
As I'm helping AtariHQ sometimes, I know what's wrong here.
If you prefer a technical explanation it is this...
Somehow, the hosting company has screwed up the (UNIX) UID
permissions on the server, and the AtariHQ no longer corresponds
to that of the files, or vice versa. The scripts and the data are all
just fine, but until the hosting company sorts out their mistake,
then the server will not be able to execute the posting scripts...
If you prefer JI-II style paranoia and conspiracy theory it is this...
Government forces working with leading Jaguar developers have
decided to take the unprecedented move of hacking the AtariHQ
servers so that nobody else can flame them, or advertise their
competing products, say insiders. Others claim that Underground
forces have taken the board down in order to stop publicity for
popular new Jaguar products. Insiders working with Sony and
Nintendo deny links with them, but they would do wouldn't they.
If you prefer a ridiculous by science fiction explanation it is this...
Due to the very large number of flames posted to JI-II in the past
the temperature of the servers providing the service has risen to
such a level that the tachyon based cooling systems which control
the nuon emitters for new messages have broken down. Once a
new supply of Vogon quantum limiters arrives, this will be fixed.
Whatever you believe, check back soon, they should fix it soon...
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
Since I only got the game a few days ago, I've not had much time
to play it, I was initially disappointed that the music was just the
same as used on some Atari demos, and that the sound effects
(and expected NBA-Jam style special effects) were missing, but
it plays well, even though everyone walks like in "Keystone Cops".
However, the really big plus point for me was when I discovered
the TeamTap support, I had read before (and the manual says)
that it is not supported, but with a TeamTap this game really is
even more useful. I've requested this morning to let me update
the manual for this game, or get it updated, it's a good release.
60 out of 100, bearing in mind it's unfinished.
I do not have Protector SE yet, but Protector is nice, but not a
game I play too often because I find the gameplay balance to
be a bit off, I'm hoping that Protector SE addresses this better.
The sound and graphics are OK, the music grinds fairly quickly.
75 out of 100, for Protector, I'm guess 80 for Protector SE.
Phase Zero was a great work-in-progress, and I would love to
see this released if Carl ever gets the source sorted out. This
game, despite Thunderbirds repeated slamming of it, in my
opinion would have been an A-grade Jaguar release if it had
been finished. It shows enormous potential just as the release,
and the sound and graphics are just excellent, voxels, superb!
This scores easy 70 out of 100, bearing in mind it's unfinished.
JustClaws.
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Hello,
Sorry about that, but if you see no action after 2 years again,
please try again! The files were actually safe and sound on the
Yahoo groups Jaguar-Homebrew file area, under JustClaws though.
As I said, I fixed the links on my site now. If you know of any other
such problems, (binary wise), then please let me know, I'll fix them.
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
Sadly I never received an email about these missing files. I do
try to monitor my bad links of course, but well, I miss too many.
The files are available now on my site, and also via the Yahoo
group jaguar-homebrew, I've posted the URL on my site here.
http://justclaws.atari.org/devcats/dostools.htm
Sadly I no longer have justclaws.co.uk which is referred to in
the code. If you just run the DOS exes then they provide help.
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
To me this hotel and location looks pretty good. I don't know
Hornchurch, but the description sounds good, especially the
free bus and proximity to stations etc., and the free parking.
The room rate also looks good, weekend rates being good.
I would definitely find this a positive proposal, I hope the
conference room rate is not prohibitive, it looks promising.
Regards,
JustClaws.
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Hello,
I attended the first €JagFest, Matthias Domin and I drove up there
together, and people travelled from around Germany and Holland,
there were no British people there except me. About 18 in total...
I could not attend the second €JagFest in 2001, but I remember
that the first day was similarly attended, very few people stayed
for the second day, which Lars and I had hoped to be a dev day.
There was no €JagFest 2002, Lars and DVD were too busy with
life in general, and no suitable small venue could be found. The
plan is to have an €JagFest 2K3 though earlier in the year though.
I would love to travel to the UK for a UK Jagfest, but unless it's
somewhere practical for travel from Holland, (read cheap, like
accessable from Stanstead - very helpful with the budget air-
lines for travellers from around Europe) then I can't attend. If
I'm in the UK then I'm in the north-east. Birmingham a no-go
for me, sorry. London / Stanstead area would be preferable!
Cheers,
JustClaws.
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All Homebrew Developers Don't want to hide from the world!
in Atari Jaguar
Posted
Hello,
Well why don't we just start some active threads on this board, and if people want to talk about them, they'll come along and so so. I'm thoroughly in favour of open discussion, let's start some threads on here, to give them credibility, and interest, you should create the headings, and let's get discussion on them going. Nobody is going to object to that!!!
However, the UGD-JAG group should not be expected to change when everybody is happy with it. If everybody migrates to these public forums then the UGD-JAG group will die off, and that will just be an old chapter. Any interesting topic will attract posts and spread by word of mouth.
If you stop being secretive about your discoveries too, and give some good development advice to everybody about things which have been problem areas for years, and which everybody would love to have some sample code for, like Jaglink networking, the Cat/Scatnet networking, reading and loading additional tracks off CD, how you think the EEPROM problem should be resolved, and more, then this would really encourage everybody, as these things are all real problems that need discussing!
You are either completely misunderstanding when I say cool, or being a bit mischevous. I'll presume the former. Go out on the street, walk into some game stores, and ask people if the Atari Jaguar is cool. They'll say no. That does not mean that you and I, and all the other Jaguar fans don't think it's cool. I think "Motorhead" is a cool band. However, they're not number one in the charts because the majority of other people don't think they're cool, poor misguided souls who are living under a misconception.
On the subject of cool, you may not have noticed that Lars, Matthias, and others, have posted both source code (not Atari source) and projects that need input, to their web-sites. Lars has a complete CD of stuff. He created a nice Breakout / Arkanoid project, publicised it widely, and got only one response to a request for new level designs. Requests for music and graphics help from other developers are widely ignored, unfortunately.
The opportunity for Jaguar fans to have a forum for giving feedback on home-brew Jaguar projects is the point of the Yahoo "Jaguar-Homebrew" group that you joined and quit, it has an archive of Underground projects and tools, plus comprehensive links. How about a home-brew project from you, to join the freeware collection, with source code included too?
Yes, let's agree to start the discussion here, in several new threads, just please don't let previous arguments colour the technical discussions.
As I say, please start the threads, they need YOUR credibility, nobody is going to follow-up a thread I post, after all, my reputation here now is only for having started a massive flame war by inadvertently throwing stones about E2PROM development at you, for which I've already apologised. (My frustration over E2PROM standards progress can easily be resolved in a healthy new public discussion on this board, and I'll be happy.)
Regards,
Richard / JustClaws.