gliptitude
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Posts posted by gliptitude
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Thanks for the review iesposta. .. I glazed over the parts where you give the solutions, (think i'll try to figure it out first) ... but you had me at "some of the best 3D effect i've seen in a vectrex game".
Don't be so sure about never having another boxed Polar Rescue. I think having a faithful Repro box is not out of the realm of possibility.
Yeah and i haven't really been working towards a complete -- boxed -- collection anyway. But this was almost certainly the most valuable thing in my collection, and positively the most valuable thing i was at all willing to trade. this will probably be the last really big trade I'll be able to make.
.. Sticking with the original thread topic, i think we are really lucky to have Madtronix and his 3D Imager so readily available. It is a really neat device. Of course the possibilities have only been hinted at with the small number of 3D games. But as more people are getting these reproduction models it is becoming much more practical for homebrewers to consider programming new stuff. I hope it happens!
I will say that maybe it is not for the casual Vectrex player. There are enough games to justify its existence, but i think it either needs a higher volume of decent games or (better yet) that one completely awesome and essential game, to make this a really mandatory peripheral.
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I found this for you. Yes, it's possible
http://m.ebay.com/itm/DB-15-PIN-PC-JOYSTICK-ADAPTER-FOR-AMIGA-ATARI-COMMODORE-D-SUB-9-PIN-GAMEPORT-/111729003284?nav=SEARCHThanks for sharing this. It is interesting and maybe a very simple solution. But it makes me nervous that there is no explanation of how it works. It looks too small to accomodate the electronics that others have prescribed so i would think that there would have to be something pretty special going on inside there for this to be legit. Plus there is no way this is compatible with EVERY 9 pin machine like the seller claims because not all systems have the same pin outs .. Unless it is somehow programmable, which again you would think there would be some expanation if it was.
Still it might be OK with Atari though, which i guess is all i was originally asking about.
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Using switches with that potentiometer style form factor is kinda slick from the manufacturing perspective. It would let the same joystick mechanism work either as an digital joystick or as an analog joystick if fit with potentiometers.
So is it probable that similar switches could be attained to swap for the pots in old PC joysticks, (along with a 9 pin cable) to convert for Atari? Or is this more likely a very rare outdated component?
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Yeah you make sense but the wire colors don't initially seem to match.The two "pots" must be switches. When rotated in one direction, the center pin will be connected with one of the outside pins. When rotated the other direction, the center pin will connect with the other outside pin.
That would make the center ground in an Atari 2600 joystick.
The outer two wires on one switch would be Left & Right inputs. The outer two wires on the other would be Up & Down inputs.
.. What would make sense and corroborate your assesment is if the BLACK wire is ground coming out of the cable lead, and the white one coming out of the lead is one of the direction signals. After the first black wire ground connection they used white wire to connect the other two grounds. Pretty simple I guess, just confusing that they changed colors midway and that the color they changed to was identical to one already in use.
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Those are likely not potentiometers, but axial type switches. Put a meter on them to find out. Its just mechanically different.
I haven't got a meter and have never used one. .. If i did, would i be measuring voltage (with controller plugged into powered up console), and be reading a variable voltage IF it's potentiometer, but static if axial switches?
When i search "axial switch" i am getting results that are potentiometers. Can you point me to one for reference, or is there another name to identify this?
Here is a more explicit photo of the wiring:
And here is a simplified drawing:
I would expect more symmetry in the wiring of digital components, but I don't have a good grasp of this stuff. I presume the white wire is ground, since it goes to all three components. But the two (pots?) are wired differently and the one only has one colored wire to it.
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Thanks for the replies all. I have one Imager but several Vectrexes, so I guess I won't let fear of incompatability stop me, since it is such a rare problem.
Thanks for the offer Tony. I will keep in mind. .. I'm trying to work a trade and I don't know yet what the prospects of it working out are. Likely to include a boxed Polar Rescue if it actually happens, and I don't anticipate ever having another one of those in my hands again : /
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Thanks for the reply Stephen. .. Based on your assessment it sounds like the easiest thing to do is just to follow the directions in the Apple to Atari project.
But to clarify..
The problem with trying to modify a controller such as the one shown above to make it work with digital input like those of the 2600 is twofold...
first there are not enough output connections, the VCS requires 5 (4 direction + fire) whereas the analogue controller requires 3 (Vertical, Horizontal and fire).
THE CONTROLLER IN THE PHOTOS IS ALREADY A 2600 CONTROLLER. I'm not trying to modify it and it has not been modified. It was originally intended for 2600.
I don't have the controller open anymore, (could open again later) but I don't think there are any capacitors in it and I think that all 3 tabs of each pot are wired.
.. I believe that The controller for the Vectrex console has 4 wires total connected to the two pots of the stick. There is one +5V that goes to both pots, one -5V also to both pots, and then each pot has a unique wire to its wiper. No ground.
.. May edit this with time.
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I own 3D Sector X, and both the original Imager and the Madtronix Imager.
I'll give it a play Thurs late evening and report back here.
Excellent! Thank you iesposta.
.. Would be interested in a brief review of the game too. How's the 3D?
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So what's the size of the binary for Bad Apple? I find it a little hard to believe that four minutes of audio could fit into 32K, so I guess that multicart supports some sort of bank switching? The graphics I can believe could fit into 32K.
It is not 32K. If I understand correctly, the cart has its own microprocessor which is significanly more powerful than the Vectrex.The Vectrex is mainly a display. .. Maybe it's a bit like a separate computer interfacing with the Vectrex through the cartridge port, but this computer is small enough to fit on 2"x2" PCB.
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I'm considering making a pretty big investment in a copy of 3D Sector X, but I'd like to know beforehand that there is a high probability of it working on my hardware. I use the Madtronix Imager and I too had problems running 3D Lord of the Robots.
I never tried the patch, (and don't have a PC at home ATM to do this, or even re-flash my cart). .. But with LOTR, is the real cart version more likely to run with this repro-imager than the ROM was?
.. Will the 3D Sector X cart work on my set-up : certainly/probably/possibly?
I can't patch a cartridge can I?
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I love the feel of analog joysticks and thumbsticks, even when they are not functionally analog.
VCS games are programmed for digital joysticks, but my go-to controller appears to contain analog components:
The TG Enjoystick was designed and marketed for an assortment of machines that program for digital joysticks(?):
(Image retreived: http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/508/retro-scan-of-the-week-the-enjoystick)
... How unusual is this? Are there others? Anybody else share this preference?
Vectrex has analog sticks standard, but hardly any of the original games actually use the analog .. and the few that do are practically unplayable! .. Yet the stick is beloved by Vectrex gamers and there is no controversy about using an analog stick primarily (almost exclusively) for digital directional controls.
Why don't we do this with the 2600?
I found this old article for making a convertor to use old Apple joysticks on VCS, but it seems much more complicated than making a permanent mod to the joystick:
http://www.atariarchives.org/ccc/chapter9.php
The Enjoystick looks very lean and simple in design, with no board inside. I imagine that some older computer analog joysticks are also this way, and that at worst in those instances potentiometers might be incorrect values, but that these could be swapped out within the mechanical assembly.
Is this possible? Or actually pretty difficult? .. I really love the controller I'm using but it is a pretty rare one and I'd like to have options and variety along these lines.
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Kewl, thanks Rolo.
I'd definitely vote in favor of the Vectrex-like stick. .. Fury Unlimited put out a controller called the Yeti that used an RC stick component that looked really nice. .. I've looked around for that kind of stuff with little luck. Usually it doesn't sell in individual components (always only the Playstation type) but I did find this recently:
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/js-10/joystick-mechanism-no-pots-or-springs/1.html
Not sure if this would be compatible with your PCB. Also their stock is dwindling.
.. I don't know if the potentiometers and mechanism can handle a variety of sticks without additional mechanics. But these RC "stick ends" are plentiful:
.. I'm not sure the expense involved in 3D printing, but many American public libraries have begun providing free access to 3D printers, (still pay for material), including the library in my city:
http://www.cincinnatilibrary.org/main/3dprinter.html
I haven't tried this yet nor have any experience, but i'd look into it if you had a printable file on hand.
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Can I be added to the list for this kit?
.. Is the thumbstick determined to be kind of like the Playstation ones, or is that metal rod in the first picture for that, (more like the Vectrex original)?
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Are they decent cosmetically? Can you post or PM a picture and a paypal address?
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Hmm. Well i hadn't found "game properties" section before. Still doesnt look like what i need. I changed some stuff around but it still interprets the nunchuck like a paddle so doesnt work on normal joystick games. I found a button mapping screen but pressing up on the nunchuck (when prompted to press desired button for "up") registers something strange.
.. The interface seems only partially adapted to Wii as some menu stuff calls for keyboard commands. .. Am I supposed to configure this stuff on a PC and then transfer over to SD card?
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.. So I'm guessing this also explains why I cant get the nunchuck stick to work in non-paddle games as well?
The wiki page for Wii2600 does seem pretty clear in listing the nunchuck as an option for directional controls in non-paddle games, (note that paddle controls are listed separately and remember that the Atari "driving" controller is not the same as the paddle and is not analog):
(Screen capture taken from wiibrew.org/wiki/wii2600)
.. Is this really just an error on the wiki page? Am i reading it wrong?
.. Using the stick to emulate the stick seems like a pretty obvious capability to include. .. The nunchuck stick is easily mapable for the NES D-pad in FCEUltra for Wii. It's frustrating to not be able to use a stick when emulating a console like VCS which originally used a stick.
.. The nunchuck by itself seems like it would be an awesome way to play 2600 games.
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I've been hunting for a copy of Star Ship, after trying it out on the Atari Greatest Hits App for tablets. In a way it seems amusingly bad, like THE prototypical archaic video game. .. I like the Lunar Lander game, with the wrap around screen, when you slowly move your ship to the edge until one half appears on the opposite edge while the other half is still at the first edge. Just funny and kind of charming. .. It's a little trippy in this game how all the objects sort of look like symbols or icons of some kind.
I just today discovered the existence of the arcade game Starship 1, that Star Ship is based on, which apparently had a mirrored display and some superimposed blacklight diorama, and also some pretty strange explosion graphics.
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I mainly only thought the criteria strange because it excluded arcade ports. .. It DOES make a lot of sense to me though to divide all of gaming into "before NES" and "after NES" because gaming was almost something completely different before and after this console, (in my opinion).
.. I had suggested Secret Quest earlier but i just realized it actually came out in 1989. I think that that's 3 years after the first Zelda game!
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Strange criteria but interesting list. .. I can only account for the Vectrex stuff and the bit of 2600 that i have experience with, and you got most of what i would choose. (Web Wars, Narzod, Yar's Revenge, Cosmic Ark..)
I like Secret Quest and would have included it. Cosmic Chasm for Vectrex would also be a good candidate, (the Vectrex version actually predates the arcade one). .. Bedlam for me does not hold up so well and I think there are a couple others better.
Nebula Commander is a homebrew btw.
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Yes, the game is designed so that the DC controller should be used together with a foot pedal.
Theoretically a joystick would work too. But then we only have two hands.
Hey are you the AUTHOR of this game? I guess i can trust your information on the subject then.
I have Thrust for Vectrex and it's a lot of fun. .. I'll definitely try your 2600 version at some point. I'm a big fan of steer and thrust controls. There's plenty of them on Vectrex but i haven't found any that feel right on 2600 yet. I was hoping the driving controller might remedy that.
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E.g. Thrust+
It looks like Thrust also requires Foot Pedals in order to use the Driving Controller. Is this the case???
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With my Web Wars comment i was a bit off topic and mostly thinking in comparison to gorf68's Spike and the Angry Vortex Bird game, (which he refers to above) rather than Battlezone. The background scrolling in his game is similar to the effect in Web Wars, although seemingly less complicated and also (as i remember) would not display properly on real hardware. .. I don't remeber the size of gorf's game program, but most Vectrex homebrews seem to approach 32K. .. So I'm just perpetually impressed with Web Wars.I always thought the horizontal (U-shaped) lines were just scaled up and down, and shifted to one side or the other to simulate perspective which could actually be done using a table, while the lines emanating from the vanishing point were just drawn from the vertices on the furthest away visible U to the closest one. Figuring out the path of each of your shots was probably harder than that. But I haven't disassembled the game, or even played it in years, so my memory might be off.
At any rate, that mostly-fixed perspective with static "sprites" for the enemies seems a lot simpler than having free movement in any direction and full 3D enemies and objects, as you'd need for Battlezone. You could probably take some shortcuts since everything but the initial approach of the missiles happens on approximately the same plane, as in Wolfenstein 3D, or alternatively, make a bunch of pre-rendered but scalable "sprites" for views of each object from the 4 or 8 cardinal directions as in Robot Tank and Battlezone on the 2600, or Ballblazer on pretty much anything.
I do think the existence of Web Wars makes at least a slightly ghetto-fied Star Wars demake possible, even without the DSP Atari apparently used in that arcade game. It just wouldn't fit in 8K.
.. I agree Star Wars could be more promising than Battlezone. I just noticed your previous post about using the 3D Imager to get the colors. I have also thought that before, (recently actually since i only first encountered a Star Wars cab a few months ago and since i also acquired a repro 3D Imager). .. The 3D effect with the Imager is a bit inconsistent, but THE COLORIZATION IS ALMOST PERFECT. For me it would seem worthwhile to provide 3D Imager support for the color alone, even if the game graphics were not 3D. .. When you consider the color vector monitors that existed and how they work and look, the Vectrex/3D Imager might be the only way to get color vector graphics WITH SMOOTH NON-PIXELATED VECTORS. .. Reproduction 3D Imagers are currently available from Madtronix.com, and I think a lot of Vectrex owners have them now.
.. I don't really know the technology and computing or programming limitations that you mention. I just thought that if you are going to consider putting a microcontroller on a cartridge, why not have something more versatile instead, that could be used by more than one game.
There have been some hardware guys in the Vectrex scene, but it seems unlikely something like this would see production. In order have an impact there would have to be solid dedicated games programmed in conjunction witht the hardware. Usually game programmers and the hardware guys are separate people. .. In fact the guy who recently designed the new cart dumper/burner system, and who is actively pursuing other Vectrex related hardware projects, IS NOT EVEN A GAMER HIMSELF.
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I'm pretty sure the shipping cost will far exceed the price of the item in this instance, and also take quite a while to arrive. I've never bought from Australia before but i looked into it once when there was an auction there that interested me. .. It looks like Australia is one of the worst first world countries to get stuff shipped to the USA from. .. You can save by using "sea mail" but i think that takes MONTHS to arrive and no tracking. .. So i automatically avoid auctions in australia.
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The Vectrex can draw lines relatively quickly and it can rotate and scale pre-designed shapes relatively quickly, but it does suffer from a fair bit of flicker when doing the maths and the drawing in real-time.
I got quite a lot of big-object movement into my Spike and the Angry Vortex Bird game by using direct line drawing (and some creative maths) to move the background, but what you see there is about the limit (drawing-movement wise) that I could fit on the screen.
I wonder how Web Wars was able to have such a compelling 3D background? It even shifts orientation while scrolling, and the whole game is under 8K.
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review of the Madtronix 3D Imager for Vectrex
in Vectrex
Posted
I'm not sure I understand this, but I was hoping 2D in color was easier than 3D, and that programers might exploit it this way more readily than for 3D. The color aspect of the 3D Imager is very effective, and when you compare it to the color vectors of (Atari arcades) it is really special in my opinion, because the vectors are still perfectly smooth and not pixelated at all.
I would imagine that a really awesome 3D game would be something like Web Wars, where there is already an inherently 3D image. But that's a lot of vectors.
.. Sad to learn that 3D Imager games are necessarily going to tend to be more sparce, even if they are not 3D, and I wonder what that "completely awesome and essential game" could consist of.