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Everything posted by Gorf

  1. BTW, guys, I just had a CUI send me a few different encoders to mess with so, i'll see what I can discover with these when I get them. I need to get my machine shop pal to make me a nice heavy knob for it . I 'm sure there is a computer he needs me to fix again.
  2. A simple 'stop' intruction and disabling the 68k's interrupts is all that would take. Then it would be Tom and Jerry all by them selves. The trouble with this of course is that since the system was designed with a 16 bit host processor, for some reason(bad design again) the DSP needed to be the same width as the bus. The DSP is lightning fast internally. It is actually slower in some cases in main ram and extremely unstable with jumps, moreso then the GPU is. Since I got the main ram jumps and local to main jumps working the only time the 68k is awake it to init the vblank once per frame. that will be eliminted as well and once the game boots the 68k may only do an interlude in between levels or something if I ever to bother to use it at all again that is. The framerates in our games that wre once 15-25 and maybe 30 when most object were off screenare 30- 60 all the time and mostly 60. We are not done yet. This is using the very inefficient Atari sample renderer in the dev kit. DONT get me started on that thing...beautiful features it has but so inefficient. JagMod certainly cleaned it and sped it up a lot though. Before the main/local jump workarounds and JagMod's mods (now you no why he is the JagMod) to Atari's renderer we were lucky to get 5-15 frames a second. In all fairness the renderer docs clearly state that it was not intended for use in games and should only be a template for much more efficient code. Actually, I have seen sources to the cart version of Hoverstike. Except for the rendering, everything is pretty much done in the 68k.. BZZZZZTT! I would love to get my hands on that source a move it all over to the RISC's( lots of work though). However, hat engine has much potential. The 68k , not the textures are what slows that game down so much. Gorf
  3. In other words, they spent many thousands of dollars making the other chips fast, and then they wrecked everything with a horrible bus interface when a good one could still have been simple. The 68000 bus interface, after all, needs to have one 16-bit data path connected to the 68000 and a 64-bit data path connected to the bus. How hard would it have been to do something like: On data read, perform the read using a 26MHz 64-bit bus cycle, latch 16 bits of the result, and then make it available to the CPU. On code read, if address bits 3-23 don't match last code read, perform a 64-bit bus cycle and latch all 64 bits. On any data read, feed the 68000 the contents of the latch. On data write, latch the write address and data, and post the write at the next opportunity. Nothing complicated there--certainly nothing so fancy as the Jaguar's other chips--but the 68000's bus width utilization for a given execution speed would probably have been cut by a factor of at least three for most typical code, and by a factor of 8 or more for some other code (if a loop fits in a single 8-byte unit and does not access any data memory, it wouldn't use any bus bandwidth). That could very well be what's going on. Zerosquare is right though. I know for a fact that this is essentially the case with the Jag from my own tests. IT does not belong in that system. Look at the cojag. What a difference in perfomance when you use a more suitable processor as the bus master (as in code master). Cojag is the same clock speed as the Jaguar. The only difference is more ram and the 68020 or r1000( not sue why they switched these around). My guess is the Jaguar chipset would operate most efficiently the way it was intended to be, by its very designers, without ANY other master CPU, unless it was on its own seperate bus. Shoot... the 68k on a seperate bus would have been fine. And again 64k would have been loads for any gaming ai.
  4. What is a bit strange is that although the 68K has the lowest priority (so it shouldn't slow down other processors), tests show that disabling it improves performance. EDIT : SCPCD's theory is that since the 68k bus accesses last longer than other accesses (since it is clocked at 13 Mhz instead of 26 Mhz for the other chips on the bus), at least 1 cycle is potentially wasted each time it occurs. EDIT 2 : More than 1 cycle is wasted, since 68K are even longer than I thought. However the actual priority is, the 68k may as well have top priority as it totally kills the bus. You would think the priorities mattered, and to some extent they do but really for nothing more than to keep the chips from stepping on each other. Remember, the MMU is broken ( so they claim, but I think its a combination of this and the pipeline. I dont think it is boken but acts differently according to who and how many procesors are active at the time.) and that certainly does not help this move along correctly. I know folks who have treated the Jaguar system as if it were a 2600 essentially using only the GPU and blitter to write directly to the frame buffer. Most impressive as the GPU will run out of main and jump to and from local with no special coding techniques. So the GPU and it's abilities to access main are different depending on who else is live and not really ' broken'. It works fine but you have to work a little harder as again, none of the tools consider these issues. The one smart thing they did in the Jag was allow ALL processors to be disabled. Like I have said before, the more code I move over to run on the riscs the faster the app runs and sometimes as little as one or two line makes a noticable difference.
  5. Your decision is certainly understandable. Just always allow others to enjoy something you may not. I could never afford such a cart but nonetheless, the game is fantastic and poor ol' Palmer just happens to dig it.
  6. Yeah dude! that looks most interesting indeed! As far as the rotary stuff goes, I have been playing around with an old CX-22 track ball and an ST mouse and a 8 pack of driving controllers from the 2600. I have similar switching issues like Tyrant brought up. I did not really read all your specs fully so , forgive me if i missed, but I had four rotaries hooked up at once for a 3D warlords like game I threw together and they worked fine. The track ball and mouse cant work together or with anything else unless you power it seperately(well at least the way my circuit was set up.) I think its that column and row addressing scheme and the common is switched to the current row of switches...or is it the columns...whichever. I want to avoid a seperate PSU and still be able to have two track balls on one port. It's not really even needed for a gam like Warlords but it would be neat to beable to hook up multiple devices with out a seperate supply. I have to imagine there is some chip or circuit out there to use that supply from the port for all and avoid losing power to the powered devices like track balls and mice, and still read the no powered stuff too. Any suggestions?
  7. Man is he incredible...did I miss this info or did anyone mention the platform this is for? I think Im blind now just from trying to follow what was going on. Some of the most impressive effects indeed but just way too busy. My one and only complaint with the other Tempest updates. Either he is doing serious LSD or he is simply on a whole different plane than we. I really think he is made of silicon, this Minter guy. Amazing though, nonetheless.
  8. How is bus arbitration among the multiple processors handled on the Jaguar? I would think that a well-designed system should allow a 68000 to co-exist pretty nicely on a 64-bit bus with other devices. If the bus interface unit contained a 64+18 bit latch for data and address, along with an address comparator, it would only have to fetch one 64-bit chunk of data for every four words of instructions fetched. Adding another 64+18-bit latch for data fetches would provide some further improvement, though not as much as the first set of latches. Does the Jaguar do anything like that, or is it more sophisticated or less sophisticated? Bus arbitrationis completely up to the programmer for the most part. The bus management is pretty non exsistant and you need to pretty much watch where you step so to speak. Essentially, the bus is managed in such a way that as long as the 68k is active, it is the bus master. Bad move space cadet!
  9. Well you know dude, if some one likes something, they usually are willing to pay alot for it. Value is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Though I understand the sore spots of some who can't phathom the expense, there are others who gladly will and do, and they are hardly jackasses for it. Sure you can argue that they might find better things to do with thier money, but that is really up to the individual, dont you think? The truth is, you may not like the cost and even I can understand it, but its easily the most impressive game on the Jaguar today. Perhaps a little grace toward the hard work and effort that was put into the game, would be a little more palettable, no? If you liked Star Raiders at all, there is no way you can miss with this game. It's chock full of features and variations, just like the good old 2600 games. Who knows, maybe some day you will actually get to play it and learn to apperciate a master piece effort like this. I have a feeling you will think very differently if you ever get the chance.
  10. TOOLS!!! The current ones are just plain awful and certainly dont deal with the new discoveries of the GPU's main local jumping abilities. In fact they do not really consider anything BUT the 68k for the most part. The Jag tools are 68k based and very little use to the RISC's other than an assembler not written to handle the now known ablitlies to jump around main and to and from local. Trust me when I tell you the ability to code stuff the new way with the right tools will make all the difference in the way the Jaguar performs. Of course sloppy code is only defeating the purpose, so you must code neatly. Most rules are the same except no 68k choking the life out of the system.
  11. Is that how Gorf was programmed? Just used the 68k to boot strap the system then shut it off? I may be wrong but I think BS used the 68k for processing controller input. No, no not at all!.... ...Gorf Classic is 90% C coded 68k. It did not need to use the other processors as it is only a simple 2d tiny sprite engine that the OPL and 68k are more than capable of handling. 'Surrounded!' on the other hand only uses the 68k to perform a vblank and help the GPU jump from main and local. Well that is how it used to do it. Now the 68k only does the vblank. That too will be removed from the 68k and done in the GPU. The last three projects i've started for the Jag I have the GPU doing ALL the jumping both to and from main and local now sucessfully and I have good ol' Atari Owl to thank for that. He figured out that part and most cleverly I might add! Another pair of good eyes such as his is always welcome. If all these recent discoveries work like we hope, we should start seeing some seriously improved apps on the little black kitty. I love my Ste and its 68k, but it should have never been used in the Jag or restricted to boot up duty only. I understand the flawed thinking of the warm and fuzzy feeling for adding it, but warm and fuzzy can and did in most cases become all to comfortable and the games suffered as a result. Im quite sure, given the source code of any game out there relying on the 68k even a little bit, I could improve its frame rate significantly. I haev moved one or two lines of code from the 68k to one of the RISCS and notice a difference in some cases. That chip is just that much of a detriment. NOw if they had use the 68k on a seprate bus with say, 64k of ram to do all the AI, that would have been a vast improvement as the risc's would rule the main bus and the 68k would do all the gam logic off bus and out of the way and only feed the DSP and GPU the info it needed through a small unified ram buffer, dual port so no waits or stalls. THAT would have been smokin! 64k is plenty of space for game logic. man can i blab!!!
  12. Blame the 68k and programmers unwillingess to turn it off after booting the game. you can not expect a 64 bit bus to get max performance when you choke it constantly with a half speed, quater buswidth processor. Until developers are willing to forget that 68k exsists after boot up, you will never see what the jaguar is REALLY capable of. I Believe IS i & II and BattleSphere are examples in the right directions of where the Jag could go. I remember Dan h. of Eclipse said that they still did not exhaust the poly pushing abilities of the Jaguar even in ISII. just my $0.02
  13. Gorf

    Nice job Tempest!

    Oh yeah go ahead and delete this one too Tempest..you little spoiled bart!
  14. You just broke the straw my friend. You poor sport. how sad your life must be. Cant win an argument that you start so you lock the thread. And I am supposed to be giving and loving and kind to you? Sniff....go drink your sour milk. Albert. Im sorry it came to this.
  15. Oh no you did not just ask ME for a time line!
  16. And just where did I do that? Now you are really imagining things. SOME people tend to call other peoples accomplishment they announce braggin when it does'nt make them look good or take attention away from them selves. Is this your trouble? It is sure seeming like it. Hey , I know misery likes company but im not into misery, even though its dished out to me constantly by jealous , envious and hateful people not unlike yourself, actually. But hey, if that is what floats your boat. Yeah self esteem is good. You should try it some time. Maybe you wont pick on others accomplishments and hey..maybe you will learn to congrat- ulate people instead. OR maybe keep your fighting to yourself till you know the whole deal. Oh but yes, if you dont know the deal your assumtions are justification enough to start unecesary shit with the fan base, right? ok!
  17. I have yet to reneg on a promise to the Jag fans. I know you dont understand it yet but you will. It is for the betterment. I know you aer all in a tizzy but I promise you it will all be made clear. Beat on me if you must but it the price you pay when doing nice things sometimes. You know what..it's still worth it knowing some will appreciate it.
  18. Because a lot of people are not interested in seeing new stuff being developed. The collector value of development tools are low enough to let certain collectors (idiots) feel rich, but high enough to keep developers (intelligent people) away. Now, I'm not innocent, but when I was interested in developing for jaguar some years back, there was no way I could afford getting the stuff needed. Now I can afford it (and bjl is available), but I'm not interested in that anymore. All I've seen the past few years has been a lot of smoke. I'd say the scene died after battlesphere. Hang tuff, we are trying
  19. Oh now stop...or we'll eat you!!!!
  20. Trust me, the moderators pay attention around here. More so than some people seem to think. Tempest You have quite a lousy attitude if you are a moderator. You pounce on me for something that is totally my (right like it or not) and it sounds like sour puss whinning. Your actions and posts are exactly why others dont bother with the Jaguar. Why willingly place your ass out to have it handed to you whe all you intend to do is help out? Me on the other hand could not give a rats tail end what you think about me or my patent. I have nothing to provw as I havw certainly shared myself through out the community. that is what this whoel thing is for and because you cant figure out the benefit, dont pick on me! Sheesh! Oh and as far as touting your accomplishments? Perhaps I think more of mine than you do of yours, eh? Ther is no need to be ashamed nor is there shame in beind proud of a good accomplishment. Im sorry this embitters you so.
  21. this is not software so much as a method of software. There are too many people who worry over nothing around here. sound really more like guilt before accusation to me. I never once accused or implied i was plannign to hoard it. but you know what? Maybe I will now. I see that there are those who are'nt just happy with the free offer I was planning so now, I'll just give it to those who have supported me and my patents.
  22. Nobody forced you to bid on it and there was a lot of hoopla about the release about the year ago so don't blame him because you missed out on it. And really, how long was I announcing to be prepared to order? At least a month before. Ah the sour grapes of wrath upon me!
  23. Thank you so much for a civil response!
  24. People who apply for patents just to say they have a patent are the most useless people I know (wasn't that a song lyric?). We have more than enough of these ego hounds where I work and they tend to be the most arrogant and useless people at the office. But congrats on the patent, now you can say you have one. Ooooo! Can I breath the same air you do? Can I touch you? Can I bask in your magnificant radiance for just a little while? Tempest And you done what for the community? Ther is always a dead beat big mouth like you in the crowd. I laugh at you and your bitterness.
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