Gorf
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Posts posted by Gorf
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That's the reality - both the Saturn and the PSX would be able to reproduce BattleSphere - they are more powerful systems than the jaguar. The only thing that would limit them is the fact that neither machine was ever pitched with multiplayer link cables by the manufacturer.
No that is not the reality. The very fact that they lack the networking is why they are too weak to ever
be able to match the Jaguar in this respect. It is the multi hook ups of the JAg and the unique means of
true parallel processing that not even the Saturn can do with it two SH2's. It would stand a much better
chance than the PSx but again, if you had actually read why I stated they can't, instead of once again
assuming you know what you are talking about, you'd have known this. The PSX and Saturn are graphically
more capable in the polygon arena but not in the computing arena. It aint the case.
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Such hyperbole always makes me want to play BattleSphere, but then the price always stops me
I was always surprised the 4play didn't make a PC version at least - there's nothing really special about it graphically, and the network play would fit a lot more on the PC. I guess I'll have to hope that there's a Jagfest this year where someone brings a copy
The PC version would have suffered based on the same reasons the PSX would have. Single processors.
Todays dual core and quad core may be a very different story however.
I'd disagree on not being able to reproduce it on the PSX though - even something like Phase Zero could be reproduced on the PSX. ( The CRY mode is the one thing that couldn't be - the PSX supports 24 bit RGB, but it's graphics hardware is completely designed around drawing 16 bit RGB pixels )
Legrand said it could not be done. I'll take his word over yours. You might get a much more
detailed gfx engine but you are'nt going to come close matching the AI. Scott explained to
me how and why this is the case( I promised to keep it quiet) and trust me, it aint happening.
Im sure Legrand and Engel would have made such a release considering the amount of money they'd
have made....the other obvious reason why you are wrong is the PSX does not support more than
two consoles networked and this is where the Jaguar has a gigantic advantage over the PSX....BS
was written in such a way that the more jags you hook up, the more processing power you have.
But if you actually read my post to KK, instead of just out of hand dismissing and disagreeing
like you always do, you would have known that. The PSX, not the PC have this ability and this
is exactly because of their single processor nature.
As far as PZ goes, yeah you'd be able to pull off a less than atractive polygon based height
map landscape but you are NOT going to draw voxels like the blitter can. If this were the case,
not only would the PSX have done so, the PC would have back then as well. It is not until recently
that the PC can do this and that is only because of the ridiculous speed of the processors.
Neither the PC or the PSX are geared toward voxel...they are poly engines and the blitter in the
Jaguar in that time period will whip both there asses in this respect hands dwon.
I dont think you understand the difference in what a polygon and a voxel is, or you would known why the PSX or Saturn(or even the PC's of that day) could not pull them off.
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Got it, I wasn't thinking about framerate so much when I wrote that, and I only have video capture uploads (obviously not fully demonstrating the framerate or graphical detail), I'll defeinitely try to check it out in persone some day. As rare as it is, probably most likely at a convention, unless I somehow meet someone locally who owns it personally.
The networking thing is certainly cool, but to be honest, I don't think that would have caught on too well for the masses durring the Jag's life. (I think Xbox was the first to have any kind of popularity with local networking -outside of PCs of course) I'm sure it would have been popular for hardcore fans though. (modem play would have been interesting though, fairly limited at that time though -but Doom in particular could have befitted from that -even the SNES and Genesis had breif online services)
Um no, this is when Doom was VERY popular because of it's networking ability as well as several other games at the time. Quake 1 and 2 followed right behind and it was'nt just hard core gamers.
History does not agree with your assesment of networking games.
OK, SS was definitely a weak comparison, it's a far simpler and more arcade style game, I was more talking about if from the really average consumer's perspective (no big time/hardcore gamer types), although they'd at least notice the drtail difference to some degree and the framerate, even if soem wouldn't epreciate the more complex/rich gameplay. This came up before, but other games (like the X-wing series) would definitely be closer to BS in that respect (non arcade style, complex space sims), not that I'm arguing those would be comparable in AI complexity and such. (I can't) I mean, SS would be more comprable than Star Wars arcade and stuf like that, but that wasn't even the issue... I mean SS doesn't even really have proper dogfighting (AI seems pretty simple)X-Wing is nothing like BattleSphere. You also forget that BS is several very different space shooters in one.
For it's time X-Wing was a nice game, but it's no BS.
And what exactly is 16-bit CRY mode, I've read a bit of the Jag's hardware summary online (not any proper hardware doccuments though -and the FAQ on AA isn't too much to go by -and I can't seem to find soem articles on Jag sector which were there a year ago). I'd assume it was an indexted 16-bit color mode (so a selected palette from the full 24-bitmaster palette rather than a fixed RGB palette as with the 32x obviously), but does the Jag even work from an RGB palette or use soemthing else, like YCbCr colorspace? And from the sound of it, CRY is more than just a normal 16-bit indexed palette. (as in, more than just 65,536 entries seleced from a 24-bit palette)
It is a palette clut based 16 bit color mode. You select 256 16 bit base colors and put these
in the Jaguar CLUT(color lookup table). You then get 256 gradients of each color.
This is getting more off topic, but, how about the saturn for comparison? I think this did come up before and you mentioned it could be closer at least (outside of networking -I'd immagine the Saturn would have used the cartridge port for any kind of network adaptor though -it did get a modem supported by the nelink/seganet service). Anyway, you've got the dual SH2s, plus a 11.3 MHz 68EC000 which was intended mainly for controllign the audio subsystem, but I beleive it wasn't limited to that. (it does work on its own bus though, the dedicated 512 kB of used for audio) There's also the SH1, but I think that's completely dedicated to controlling the CDROM drive. (and a DSP coprocessor intended to help with 3D math)
Getting off topic?
Not even close. The J-RISC chips can run in parallel even out of main(with some contention of course) but this was
not efficient at all in the Saturn. However, the Saturn would have been better suited to coming closer to the ability
of BS's AI and game logic.
But again, I mean no disrespect to battleSphere or Scatologic for that matter, that really was an oversimplified comparison (albeit intended to be considdering the perspective of a relatively simple audience), and I definitely hope I eventually get a chance to play it. I doubt I'll be dissapointed.
I think it is more out of ignorance about the game than disrespect. You are going by the moronic responses of some
around the gaming community that never once lifted a joypad to play BS, only to say "my system has a space shooter too".
It's like saying I have a mini-van so who cares about your Targa 911.
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Also, BS may be really impressive to the technically mindided, but how much so woult it to the masses at the time being wowed by the Sony's textured polygon pusher, I'm sure there would be some to take notive of the nice smooth shading (especially when it was applied to textured surfaces like doom), but it might be a bit tougher to appeal to the masses and general gaming media. A game like Phase Zereo probably would have wowed them though, especially anyone who didn't know what voxel rendering was, thinkin it was an extremely detailed polygonal 3D environment instead. Games using such non plygon rasterization would be playing to the consoles strengths though, which is whad was needed for sure. (Doom type raycasters, and voxel engines, possible with soem polygonal models mixed into either -immagine battlemorph or cybermorph with voxel terrain)
Again, with BS specifically, to the average/untrained viewer, how mcuh difference is there between BS and a game like Shadow Squadron on the 32x for example? (sure, gameplay style is a bit different, and actually playing it would give more of that feeling, the but the only obvious visual difference would be the shading/lighting effects in BS, Shadow Squadron even runs in higcolor mode, albeit limited to the 15-bit RGB of the 32x and also to the 128 kB framebuffer size, so the screen is clipped -but tactfully so as to put it mostly into overscan opposed to Virtua Racing Deluxe) BS shines in its amazing game logic/AI (which I can only judge on 2nd hand experiences, but does sound damn impressive), which would generally be harder to show off to the public, especially with only words and pictures. (ie in an article)
BattleSphere for one is a networking game. The first console to ever allow 32 players
connected. The only console to actually improve the speed of the game every node you add.
Aside fromthe networking, just in single play mode, Shadow Squadron as cool as the game
might be does not have the replay value of BS on it's best day. Not then , not now , not
ever. It's clear you never played BS, because the high level of insult you commit even
comparing it to a game like SS.
Graphically, in action, SS does not even come close and that one bit of color the CRY mode
of the Jaguar has over the 15 bit mode garbage is not only twice the colors but CRY is a special
mode of the Jaguar in that it comes closer to looking like TRUE color because if the way the
palette and color logic work. SS is a neat game but the frame rate is a dog. You never see BS
drop under 60 unless you have over 256 models on the screen at one time and even then it drops
no lower than 30. That is single player mode only. Once you network the game, it never drops
below 30.
Until you play BS, it is best not to compare it to inferior hacks like SS. It is truly and
painfully insulting.....no ...really.Believe me, you have not lived as a gamer until the
pilot's with jet packs of BS hand you your ass. SS cant shine BS's shoes.
If it were one of the first games out for Jaguar, it would have rocked the gaming world
and the PS1 would never be able to generate such a AI and game logic monster. One MIPS
can not compete on it's best day against dual J-RISC chips. The best you could hope for
on the PS1 is a texture mapped wanna be.
PS1 to this day can't network past two consoles that I know of. It would choke painfully
trying to use a voxel engine and you'd never see a landscape like that of PZ on PS1.
Not on it's best day. Polygons yeah, voxels, not a chance.
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The 3do version is by far the worse. even the snes version blows it out of the water. ArtDink or what ever they were called were spotty at best when it came to programing.
Before picking on the SNES port of Doom, consider this:
A majority of people give the SNES port of Doom a lot of shit for having 1. such low resolution and slow frame rate, and 2. bitch about no floor textures or monsters always facing forwards, but let me explain this clearly;
1. This is running on an SNES, with NO extra hardware! Just the SNES and a Super FX chip! Not a giant mushroom with an extra power supply!
Though the game is a little sluggish, and looks like the Doom marine needs some glasses, this port of Doom is actually the MOST accurate out of ANY console port in existence. They kept all of the original textures, all original architecture and level design, all original secrets, including 3 secret levels, plus managed to keep 22 of the original levels from all three episodes, not to mention the Doom soundtrack sis rockin' on the SNES!
2. No floor textures: Are you really staring at the floor while you play Doom? Not such a big deal, sludge is green, lava is red, water is blue, get over it.
Monsters only face forward: Yeah? They only face forward in the 32X version too, but I never hear anyone complain about it. For me, the fact that I can't sneak up on the enemy makes the SNES version more of a challenge, which gives it more replay value imho.
The 32X, Saturn, Jag, 3D0 and GBA ports were all abysmal bucherings of Doom.
The only other worthy port is the PSX version, which still changed the level design, textures, sounds, music, and ending of the game, and the GBA port of Doom II is noteworthy for being pretty accurate too.
Jag version Butchered?
It has all the ORIGINAL game play where as the SNES does'nt yet you say it's butchered and the SNES is'nt?
No floor textures, enemies face you which right there screws up the game play mechanics and the
fun of sneaking up on the enemy and the Jaguar version is butchered? It even needs the assitance
of another processor and it still has a horrible frame rate.
LOL!
This has to be the best chain pulling joke I've heard all year!
This is right up there with the two kids in a game store I was in, telling me
how much better the gamecube was then the DC.
Nintendo fan boy much?
Besides, the creator of Doom still says the Jaguar version was the best one for a console
so please get over yourself.
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Of course, this has almost all coem up before in the 1993 what if thread.
The Jag as it is would be powerful enough to do much better games than it has.
BS is plenty proof of that and there is a ton of computing going on. Probabl more
than most PS1 games by far.
Even with all the fancy caching of the PS1, the Jaguar is hardly a slouch..just a lot more
of a nightmare to deal with.
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What Carmack said is what I've been saying all along. Had he known about the main code work around,
Doom would have been 320 x 240 30+ FPS like the PC with HIGH color...it is using the CRY 16 bit mode.
You can not get smooth gradient light shading like DOOM is doing in anything less than CRY mode on
the Jag or any machine for that matter at that time(not even the PC would handle high color as
well as the Jag could.)
The PS1 does t-mapping so well,because like it's PC counter part it uses 256 colors in texturing.
Sure it can use higer color but you will see half the poly count as it tries to do it. If the Jag
coders tried 256 color mode instead of 16 bit CRY texturing, they too would be able to get much
smoother and faster texturing on the Jag. Still not as many polies but no doubt a faster frame
rate and more polies than they got trying to texture with CRY ..for example HoverStrike.
HOWEVER, though the frame rate of HS is half or less what the PS1 did, it is by far superior
looking and certainly much more colorful than most of the early PS1 games. Had the HS guys
known about main code tricks they too would have doubled the frame rate, both in the cart and
CD version of HS. Instead they rely heavily on the 1/2 speed 1/4 bus width 68k all too much.
This is why DOOM did not achive 30FPS or more at a high rez. This is not because the Jag can't
do it, but because time would not have permited DOOM to be finished in any reasonable time trying
to do everything in GPU modules and also because they did not realize(no one did at that time)
that you could reliably run J-RISC code from main RAM.
When you consider the Jag is only 27 megabytes less across its bus per second than PS1, there is
no reason to believe it can't handle much higher frame rates and higher poly counts than it did
using main ram GU code. PS1 = 133MB/sec while Jag was 106MB/sec.
The PS1 will always do more polies per second hands down but the JAguar could have done much
better given the right tools in the developers hands.
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Any one that rents Gorf CD will feel my wrath, unreservedly. You'll wish you tried to whore it on e-whore.
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Let me be clear folks. It WILL be a CD release IF IT GET RELEASED. If there are enough requests for a cart,
then we will consider it. Reason being is was programmed as a CD release to start with.
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Well note that I said they "should" have one. I didn't say that owning a JagCD is a prerequisite to being a serious Jag fan. I just said I think all serious Jag fans should have one. Not all serious Jag fans will agree and that certainly has already been proven here with very legitimate reasons in tow. I will leave it with that though as Gorf has requested. Should someone have anything to add to this conversation I would say it has garnered enough discussion to warrant its own thread. It was not my intention to divert the topic. I apologize.
Well I'm not really too concerned with derailing a thread(God knows I've done my share) but it would be better to discuss it in a new thread as it will only get lost here.
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Well I'll be sure to put in the description that it is a very early beta...
Cool!
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Though we considered that possibility, none of our games will be based around an upload device.
Not everyone has those and those are a lot less in number than a CD even. Plus we want to release
games that use the original machines media. It 's what most of the fans want too.
Might I add that this is not the place to discuss the media type and why one should be used over the other. That would be more appropriate in another thread.
Thanks.
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Greetings all. I managed to compile the sprite demo by Dan Boris on my PC and get it to run. I have Windows 7 (64bit release candidate). I used DASM (the assembler) as was indicated in the source code. Since DASM will not run on Windows 7, I downloaded and installed DOSBOX. The "Make" file would not run, but I was able to compile the source code with the following:
C:\DASM>dasm 78db.s -f3 -o78db.bin -l78db.lst
"78db.s" is what I called the source file that I downloaded from Dan Boris's 7800 tech page. I don't know exactly the significance of the "-f3", but the "-o78db.bin" results in an output file "78db.bin" that can be loaded into the 7800 Prosystem emulator. I also don't know if it is necessary to type the "-l78db.lst" part or not.
I know the veterans are probably chuckling at this, but my programming experience is limited to C/C++ and various flavors of BASIC, and it has been ages since I have done any of that.
Any veteran that chuckles at you ought to hang his head in shame. They were once noobs too
and should be a bit more sensitive to what you are dealing with. I use a batch file too.
No biggy. Make files are over rated, especially for something like assembler on the 7800.
It's not like you are dealing with a trillion C files so the KISS method works fine here.
the -l outputs an assembly listing to let you know how the assembler is dealing with the source.
you dont really need it but I find them helpful. I have never met anyone that can write bug free
code. If they exsist, they certainly are not working for MS.
Though I may be a coding veteran, I certainly do not consider myself one concerning the 7800.
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As far a cart pricing, Im going to talk to Curt Vendel to see if he has some insight on how to get the current
cost down. I really hate charging $80 for a cart. It's a lot of money. Perhaps we'll find a better way.
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The bin demo doesn't do much right now anyway. However, it does show great potential and makes me want to buy the game presently titled "Warbirds" when it comes out.
I'd rather wait until the game is done anyway. I suppose folks will see the vid and be extra suprised when
the game is done. Plus Im using an emulator for development ATM and my 7800 does not have a vid mod. But if
one of you guys wants to pop a vid of 'Warbirds'(working title), go right ahead.
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Smart words Gorf.
Yes dear.
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The point being that Skunk is not longer being sold. And PSE, though slower is the least intrusive,
allows for deving and includes a great game with it. Perhaps another run of Skunks might be in order
Tursi?
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Though I have really not loved the Jag scene much lately......I still love the Jaguar.
Once removed, an old freind to gamers with a new look.
CD only unless there is big demand for carts(but they wont be cheap in cart form.)
More info to come as things progress.
That is all for now.
.....ribbit....
Donkey Kong?
I cant wait to see what you've got new for the Jag.No Walter, no Donkey Kong type games.
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I've been meaning to do so, but have been a bit busy with other things..Are we going to see this game actually play on YouTube sometime soon? I hope so.
I asssume you are going to use the bin demo.....the game has advanced a bit since that time
and may not reflect the final product very well.
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I only wish Batari himself would consider a 7800 version of his awsome basic. I'd gladly contribute libs towards his efforts if he did.Cool. You never know what will happen in the future. That would be great.
If I had a decent clue about writing a language, the 7800 would have it and
Jaguar would already have one that uses the J-RISCS to there best possible
potential. I only wish I could do such a thing. Maybe someday I'll actually
try. I have enough on my plate for now though.
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This is not Mighty Frog. That was always designated as a CD release. Only The Graphics Man can decide otherwise.
You wont know what this is till its ready, if its ready.
Ill bet it has to do with yars revenge
Where that came from, Im afraid to guess.
You may think that if you wish but you will not find out till when and if its ready.
I suggest you read the opening comment I started the thread out with .
It just came from the quoted post I thought maybe you were hinting a diffrent game, Thats all. And I rember you talking somthing about wanting yars revenge
Yes I did mention that but that is a completely different project altogether.
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This is not Mighty Frog. That was always designated as a CD release. Only The Graphics Man can decide otherwise.
You wont know what this is till its ready, if its ready.
Ill bet it has to do with yars revenge
Where that came from, Im afraid to guess.
You may think that if you wish but you will not find out till when and if its ready.
I suggest you read the opening comment I started the thread out with .
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I'll be working!!! And i'll tell them whats going on.
Oh boy! I know you are a youngin, but I think it's a safe bet that you have never read
William Congreve's 'The Mourning Bride'?
There are plenty of people that you might be sucessful arguing with but ChickyBaby is
not one I recommend trying it with. This advice from a guy who never backs down to anyone.
Folks around here will tell you that.
Don't be a fool and learn the hard way as did I.
YOU CAN'T WIN!
(Nuthin' but luv CB! Nuthin but luv!)
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HAHA I tend to type to fast =P
Fact is, Im the last one who should bitching about anyone's typing skills.
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Does Jag Doom run in highcolor mode?
in Atari Jaguar
Posted · Edited by Gorf
Um, sorry my friend but no ......It is graphically more powerful in polygans ability.
It can not match the Jaguar in computing and voxel landscapes, deal with AI and game logic
on the level of BS and still maintain a 60 fps frame rate that only gets more efficient the
more units you network together. The PSX stops at 2 units...The Jaguar with BS can do 32.
The Jaguars work together and now you have serious multi processing going on. The PSX just
does not have the ability on the same level computationally. One MIPS can not out perform
two J-RISC's on its best day.
Show me just one game on the PSX that even comes close to the AI and game logic of BS. IT
never happened and it never will. Without any networking going on the Jaguar will out compute
the PSX.
I have been told by MANY PSX developers who also coded for the JAguar syaing that the Jaguar
is by far more capable in math just on one risc versus the MIPS.