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philipj

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Posts posted by philipj

  1. Were ray-casting engines even being used back then? I'd thought those didn't become common until the early 90s (with a handful used in the late 80s -along with many other developers trying to do similar effects using 3D polygons -I think MIDI Maze used ray-casting though)

     

    I know there were the fractal engines and several fully pre-rendered corridor/maze/dungeon crawler games (like Tunnel Runner), but not actual ray-casting engines.

     

    According to the YouTube description "Game made by Paul Edelstein in 1983." You can even see the grid map at the bottom of the game which indicates some use of a raycasting scheme.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ByUh18MjUU&list=PL599E87C2159EE706&index=39

     

    Raycasting actually goes all the way back to the early raytracing days when MAGI was started using it.

     

    Flare had to look at things from the perspective of 1989-1991 (when the Jaguar's core logic designs were being laid down -mostly in 1990), so a ton of guess work and foresight were necessary on their part. They had 2D games to consider, and the limited polygonal arcade and computer games of the time as well as pseudo 3D (though the height map engines -Doom/voxel games- had yet to really emerge in the mass market -Wolf 3D and Commanche really started that).

     

    On top of that, Sega was designing an arcade board, something totally exclusive to their in-house software teams. Thus they had no precedence for catering to market standards as 3rd parties (generally) wouldn't even be using it.

    And in that respect, Flare had a much better perspective for 3D game/hardware design . . . as did pretty much any significant R&D team that worked on the level of mass market computer/console platforms of the time.

     

    Well that was some what the point I was trying to relay... Texture mapping and smooth shading probably wasn't considered in the Jags design therefore it would be somewhat of a skewed view to get the Jaguar to do the kind of graphics that a PS1 could do as far as 3D environments having texturemapping with smooth shading effects as part of the artistic look that can be found in games like Ridge Racer. I don't think those kinds of consideration were really put on the table when the Jag was designed. Although the industry standards were out there, everyone seem to be doing their own thing so the industry standard didn't seem as clearly defined until the PS1 dominated the marked in 1995. Didn't want to go too much off topic either, but it's still very much relavant to the discussion because the Jag just wasn't designed for texture map and smooth shading.

     

    The Neo Geo used 4-bit graphics (15 colors per sprite) like most other 2D arcade boards in the late 80s and early 90s. It has 256 palettes of 15 colors each.

     

    I'm not talking simple checkerboard dithering for flat shading, but far more complex realtime dithered interpolation like X-Wing and Tie Fighter used. (as well as the Playstation GPU and many PC accelerator cards -I think some PS2 games also used it)

     

    Actually, X-Wing/Tie Fighter seemed to use more intensive dithering than the simple pattern-block/bayer dithering used in the PS1 and most PC video cards of the late 90s. It looks more like floyd-steinberg dithering.

    http://media.giantbo..._wing_super.png

    http://images.wikia....EFighterDOS.png

    http://www.btscene.e...Collection.html

     

    I know... Floyd Steinberg dithering is evident in most of the SNK images. The color transitions looks to be manipulated very easily by a CPU if done right. The PS1 used a standard where texturmap images are 4-bit graphic jpeg compressed for quick display on 3D objects. It's one of the reasons I mentioned SNK because they seem to have been using dithering very cleverly where their sprites only so small enough; they were able to use zoom effects in their games. You also mentioned the Sega CD having rotation and skewing effects simulating 3D perspective, which is commonly used in texturemapping... It like I said earlier, the Jags best option is to look at how dithering, zooming, skewing, raycasting and voxel (2.5D stuff) basically all of the low-end simple effects used on previous systems; all of that is still available to use today in a more agreeable way to produce great looking 3D on the Jaguar.

  2. Like the g-shaded environment in the Zyrnix 32x demo:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vySOZUcOdng

     

    Stop for a minute there. Demo? From Scavenger inc? You just shot yourself in the foot!

     

    Yes, that video does look rather sexy (if of course your cup of tea is 5cm viewing distance :P), but there's no way in hell a well coded demo will compete with game code. Since good demos are cheating massively to show things that are thought of impossible, this is in no way a real benchmark for the console. For example, the whole geometry can be pre-calced, so the only thing that the console does is render polygons on screen. For example, take a look at this: http://dhs.nu/video.php?ID=300 - seek around the 1 min mark. That's exactly what I describe above and what can easily happen in the video you posted. I could go on and on for ages about how they can cheat in each screen but I won't. Point is, the 32X can't do that in realtime and I'd say most consoles of that era, so it's pointless to speculate.

     

    (albeit voxels would be better suited for a lot of smooth terrain type stuff, but that's a separate issue ;))

     

    No they wouldn't actually, that'd look awful.

     

    Well... Chilly Willy did port a full textured 3D engine to the 32X using full polygon textured and shaded images. It's a little slugish, but at least now we know what the 32X can do... It just need optimizing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahISpH1eMzg

     

    To me Doom shows a lot of potential even though it really isn't polygon based and it's as close to smooth texture as you can get on the Jag.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOyhWT9mQy4

  3. I think during the early and mid 90s texture mapping and smooth shading wasn't really as prominent as it was in 1995 and afterwards thus 3D polygon based games really were just seeing the light of day in the public eyes as far as the trending tides in the industry. Texture mapping and smooth shading was just coming out of the closet so to speak; keep in mind that both the Atari Jag and the 32X are still products of the development of what 3D would would become today. With Doom using simple ray-casting that can be found in use in gaming as early as the early 80s on Atari 8bits, the secrets of texture mapping and smooth shading were in the hands of companies like Silicon Graphics and the likes who invested a lot of time and money into the technology. Considering Sega's approach their 3D development Virtual Racing arcade technology with them going straight to NASA (if I recall well) they just had a better edge on the perspective what it takes to make a top notch 3D hardware; but the Jaguar still has a whole lot of juice as well with it's technology and was the only game console out there with a 64bit blitter. Both could have succeeded had they not rush the systems out too soon. I just don't thing the full spectrum of what was out there with 3D was available in 1992-93 like it was in 1995 and up; some people was just not in the loop like that besides whoever could define the market, would certainly have a monopoly on it, which turned out to be the Sony Playstation 1.

     

    Then there's other contextual issues, like color depth:

    for 256 paletized color stuff, you generally can either work with a very limited/optimized palette capable of somewhat decent gouraud shading, or you could optimize colors for textures (with even more limited shading and more noticeable posterization). You really can't get very decent smooth shading in 256 colors without dithered shading, but few games opted to do that -the Tie Fighter engine was among those. (albeit banded/posterized shading -like DOS tomb raider- still looks better than faceted flat shaded lighting IMO -in some cases, it's probably better to use no light-sourcing at all)

     

    Plus, smooth shading is useful for much more than lighting effects. Even with no light sourcing whatsoever, you could use gouraud shading to smooth out polygonal models or in leu of textures for some things. (ie some limited cases where shading gradients could be used to create some texture-like patterns on models -especially for decal polygons)

     

    Another company I look at as far as the use of 8bit colors is SNK and how the used dithering for mostly all of the games after 1994. The Jag was suppose to compete with the 3DO as far as technological and graphical feat but I think Atari should have continued to support the Lynx until they had a finished product with the Atari Jag 64. Despite that, any use of optimization with 256 colors is better then no optimization at all plus I don't think that smooth shading was used for anything more then your typical gouraud shading back then which was the normal for its day. Dithering was there back then and used a lot in the old DOS games both in 2D and 3D, which was something that that the 16bits could do even with coprocessor on a cartridge. SNK used it to death in their 2D platforms and it was certainly an open door to some decent effects despite it'shortcomings and still is today. I look at how the demo scenes use it in the Atari 8s and the C64 computers it blows me away.

     

    CRY seems to make for a smaller file size and seems to be more of an optimized hardware solution... Also Atari is known for their exclusiveness with their hardware having nothing but the Atari way of doing things exclusively on Atari machines. It was probably some business model they use in order to keep programmers making Atari stuff.

  4. Going after this site would be the latest most boneheaded thing they could ever do to already pissed off fans.

    I agree that this site represents no threat. However, recent historical evidence demonstrates a high correlation between boneheadedness and policy. Site could continue under a different banner, and every user here could community-organize a massive boycott in retaliation, and perhaps our friends over at atari-forum could help out across the Pacific. There should be a boycott, already.

     

    This people obviously didn't learn from Hasbro's mistakes... It would be like history repeating itself.

  5. Yep, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole considering what Atari is doing right now.

    You'd have to really like the 7800 to want to own the domain name at that price. Plus Atari are C&D trigger happy at the moment which counts against it.

    Is AtariAge going to be in the crosshairs someday?

     

    What happen??? They were making some pretty good videos on YouTube... Did Atari do something for this to happen?

  6. I chose the 2600 Jr. because I think it would not only be cheaper to make, but also cheaper to buy; it's more compact which is something that's probably welcomed in this day and age thus would probably be more marketable rather than having a big clunky machines sitting around. Me personally I wouldn't mind getting System X style myself just to have one, but I got 7 clunky Atari machines that takes up a lot of space. I had a 2600 Jr. but it burnt out after all of these years. I've had it since 1988 so perhaps my opinion is a little bias.:)

  7.  

     

    Man this game takes me back the game room at "Pasqualis Pizza (now out of business)." This use to sit two or three rows away from "Double Dragon.":D Oh yes... And there was Afterburnner.

     

     

    That ghostbusters game to me don't look very good, looks like too much going on for a stratagey of any kind, other than insert quarters.. :D

    I looksed at dk junior and found that the7800 version is pretty good, considering it has all the levels(better than coleco if I can remember.) The only thing its missing is the better sound, into, cutscenes, cage moving at the end of each level. Funny no one ever did a hack of that game,

    Also Kangaroo, the 7800 could easily handle a perfect arcade port, as I have never seen a good port of Kangaroo on anything and its a classic.

    I play froggie now and then on prosystem and found the sound and graphics awesome, why did it not make it too cart??? The only small issue is frog placement on the logs/turtles when you jump sideways it should pick a spot for the frog and have 2 or three places for the frog to go, but its not a major fault.

     

    This game looked crappy now, but back then this game was the bomb especially when all you were use to was playing the 2600 and the NES.

  8. I'd be curious to hear your opinions on the Epyx stick:

     

    atari_joysticks_epyx500xj.jpg

     

    It's one of my favorites. :)

    Send me one and maybe I will. ;)

     

    It's a very fancy controller... I have two of them, but they shouldn't be handled rough. The red plastic on the control stick can break if you rough house with it. It's ok but sometimes it feels a little akward to hold, but it feels better/more natural then the regular atari Joysticks.

  9. I was born in 1972, it took me 39 years to start coding for the Atari VCS - though I never had one before and though it had "died" in 1987.

    So from that point of view of a 1977 Atarian, I AM the next Atari generation. I and did it just because I read a book about it

    and thought "Man this is weired - I gotta try it out".

     

    Our Atari machines are interesting things and they will always be. And one day in 2021 someone will maybe read a book about the 800 XL

    and will think "Man this is weired - I gotta try it out".

     

     

    I feel you on that one... I got my Atari computer for the first time just this summer and I plan on coding it in the near future. I was born in 77 so I

    a good early start on things. :D

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