philipj

There's this book I ran into around the late 90s called "Virtual Reality Madness by SAMS publishing" that came out right around the time "Checkered Flag" came out and it's basically a book that highlights the VR technology of the times around 93 or 94. I found the book in a bargain bin around 97 or 98, but it was my introduction into the world of Virtual Reality. It came with a couple of CDs with shareware programs that required DOS or Win 3.1 and it featured some pretty amazing stuff or so I thought at the time; it also had a wire-frame modeler for DOS called "Impulse Imagine 3D", which I later found out was originally an Amiga software ported over. Looking at all of that polygonal stuff on Checkered Flag sort of reminds of the programs they used in the book and I sometimes wonder what kind of 3D program they used to model the 3D objects for the the game. As choppy as the game is, I actually like the open world feel of the game... It's my understanding the only reason the game ran slow was because of the 68K Motorola controlling the AI caused the slowdown. The game play was a bit stiff with the controls, but it does show off some of what the Jag is capable of especially considering the tools "Rebellion" had to work with. Still I would love to learn what made that game tick and perhaps make something better.

Ok... Here's a YouTube I just finish watching that seems very appropriate for this topic. It's a great documentary on the game company "RARE" and the two games that they're best known for "Donkey Country & Killer Instinct". Not that I'm implying I want to see these two games on the Jaguar (Although the Jag is very well capable), it's a great viewing for learning and brainstorming ideas whatever game concepts that might still be floating around out there in the wild not really seeing the light of day so to speak. It's a great view of how the games were made from scratch for the arcades and the consoles.

The SNES had to use extra chips on a cartridge to even remotely come close to what Rayman pulled off on the Jaguar... Street Fighter Alpha 2 is a good example of coming close to doing what Rayman did on the Jag and it's still not as colorful or as detailed. I think as far as "Metal Slug" style animation, using low resolution like the SNES or a slightly higher res like the kind used on the Neo Geo, it's possible to get good animation if the sprites are reasonably small, but considerably a good size for visual impact. I think Street Fighter Alpha sets a good example for a good resolution to use for the Jaguar where you can put a lot of good animation in sprites without it breaking the cartridge size. I think Primal Rage for the Jaguar did a good job with sprites, but the background image seemed large and a little out of proportion compared the sprites; it seemed rushed.

I know when you started posting still images of the your work it looked pretty promising, this video looks freaking great... I had no idea it would look that good. Congrats VRVlad...! All of your hard-work looks like it's paying off.

Pretty good stuff...

Well you're right about that... Rayman made good use of the blitter for those graphics to really pop on the Jag; even better than the Playstation 1.

Not really... I didn't mention cache ram at all. I was referring exclusively to system ram where the 32X has 256KB of ram per SH2 processor versus the Jaguar only having 2MB of non dedicated system ram. Of course I know about the JRISC internal memory, but with the GPU not able to do jumps like it should, the 32X has a profound advantage over the Atari Jaguar in this regard even though the Jag has 2MB of main ram. Still it would've been an advantage if the Jags graphics and sound chip had some external memory dedicated exclusively each processor to help it stay off of the bus when needed if you want to do a comparison between the Jag and the 32X... This is where the 32X has the advantage as a game system. I remember back in 95 or 96 toward the end of the 32X shelf life, Toys R Us were selling on the cheap much like the Jaguar... Of course I got in on it and purchased "Virtua Fighter" then later "Virtua Racer" and "Star Wars" the more flagship games. Later I would go back to get "WWF Wrestlemania Arcade" and was looking for "Zaxon Motherbase" but they were sold out. I also remember seeing the rare "Amazing Spiderman Web of Fire", but the bargain bin was emptying fast with people buying them on the cheap. Around that time KB Toys were selling the Jaguar games on the cheap, which I wish I'd taken advantage of at the time. It was right around the time the Playstation 1 was all of the rage. By 97 I still had my SNES, Sega Genesis-CD-32X, and managed to find a 3DO at a local pawnshop with "Crash-N-Burn". A year later I finally yield on the PS1 bandwagon and found a good used one at a pawnshop with the game "Battle Arena Toshinden" and was floored with how well the graphics looked even though the game-play was a bit clunky. Not quite sure why I went down that memory lane, but those were great memories. lol 😄 Also you're right about Doom... That game is a hardware truth machine pre-Playstation 1 era. They had to use the FX chip just to getting working on the SNES and it still didn't do as well as the 32X. The Jaguar reign supreme when it comes to Doom.

The 32X graphic chip has better access main ram than the Jaguar and will work at full speed without any work around's to slow it down unlike the Jaguar... However the 32X doesn't have a 64bit blitter or a 32bit object processor thus the only reason the Jaguar can't do as well is because the GPU inability to make jumps to main ram without the work around. I think if the Jaguar had a better architecture it would total demolish the 32X, but neither one of those systems never really saw it's fullest potential during their commercial shelf life. Another thing to consider is system ram; the Jag has more ram than the 32X yet the bus is not as bottleneck as the Jaguar. It all really just depends on the programmer, but I'm just speculating based on what I know from what I've read. Still I agree with you on some level; I think the 32X has a better advantage as far dual SH2 processors having it's own access to 256KB of ram per chip... I wish the Jaguar GPU and DSP had it's own portion of dedicated memory in addition to the 2MB of main ram.

I manage to get my hands on a model 1 "Sega CD and 32X" unit last year... Great little systems; personally I'd like to see something that takes advantage of the 32X using the Sega CD and Genesis. It has two perfectly good 68000 cpu's with 2 sound sources; a potential third sound source if a game is using the SH2 on the 32X, but why use that when the Genesis has a good synth chip and the CD unit can hand PCM. This is really for another kind of topic, but my favorite game was "Silpheed and Soulstar" mainly because they both made good use of the Motorola 68000; Silpheed used both sound chips on the Geny and the CD unit. As far as porting 32X games to the Jaguar, I guess it would be Ok to do, but I'd rather see something new pushes the Jaguar outside the confines of a cool tech short demo scene... All of the cool gimmicky graphical stuff you see in the demo scene, put it in a game like that company "Zyrinx" did with "The New Adventures of Batman & Robin".

When I ran into this YouTube video, for some reason I thought about this old forgotten topic. It's not really XM related, but just a very interesting video about the very rare "Yamaha DX-1" synthesizer. It's got a great little part on how the DX sound works giving some simple explanations that's easy to understand. Of course the YM2151 chip will never sound nearly as good as the full on DX-1 keyboard, but 9 out of 10 there's probably more than a couple of those chips inside the synthesizer.

I agree... One of my favorite games for the "Playstation 1" was "VS. by THQ". This game has some of the worst graphics I've seen on the system, however it's got one of the most unique fighting engine I've ever played. Compare it with "Fight For Life" for the Jaguar and I think a better fighting engine could've been implemented for FFL. I remember playing VS and wishing they'd put more work into the game, the fighting engine is very engaging once you get over the learning curb.

Well that's why I'm starting off simple with QB64 so I can wrap my head around programming in general... It makes for a great prototyping tool, it's compatible with Windows, Apple, and Android thus becoming a gateway for some indie stuff, and whatever I make with it I can port down to the Jaguar; I'll get to the Motorola 68000 eventually. Although I mentioned QB64 earlier, I also have a copy of "GFA-BASIC" for Windows and an "Atari ST 520" to sort of help me alone (also to control some old synthesizers I own); would be great for experimenting with some things in the 3D department, but before I get to that, I will have already done so in QB64. It's basically a process of gaining understanding, I am more of an artist after all than I am a programmer although I did do some HTML once. Here's a link of some books I ran into on programming 3D on the Motorola... I know the information is old, but still some good today for what I need. Real Time 3D GFX for Atari ST Amiga 3D Graphic Programming in (GFA) BASIC It'll be about 19 or 20 for me with most of those years taking a backseat to programming in favor of real life, but planning for the of future making games just in case. I'm at the point now I just want to know how to program and make games now Jag or no Jag, but no need in letting all of that knowledge of the system go to waste. I was a hair away from letting go till I sold my collection and regretted doing so afterwards. I'm in it for the long haul this time; I still have the "Gorf Lessons", but we both know how he felt about the 68000 (Turn it off)... Since he isn't around any more I got to go a different route in regards to learning Assembly Language. I probably will use those tools you link me to as a starting point for Jaguar programming once I have a good footing on programming the Motorola then use the Reboot tools as a kick-start. Some ground work is already in motion believe it or not; just have to make time for stuff and stay committed. Also I've been eyeballing the "Atari 5200" lately, but that's for another topic.

Well... back in the day, for me, no idea was too big, too small, or too crazy for a very deeply flawed Jaguar system. Like I mentioned earlier I'm a little more sober minded today as I was in yester-years. Not the hardcore mindset I use to have that someone might consider to be idiocy; I didn't know how to program so I had absolutely nothing to loose therefore all bets were off. But that was back in the day, I'm a bit more realistic today about all of that kind of stuff now then I was in my youth... I think my only regret is not being able to prove my theories; I still have my old ideas written down from those old days so I'm glad I still have them... I get to see where my head was when I came up with them versus what's more feasible. But if people don't always get what I post, I perfectly understand and appreciate the feedback and corrections, I wouldn't have gotten this far without them.

Yes I was... Hi res butter smooth 3D graphics; Battle for Naboo looked incredible... Rouge Squadron was a great looking game as well; I had that game and played it often. Another game "Phantom Menace" was a pretty good looking game that shine with the graphics. Great game at the arcade and the N64. Being that both the Jaguar and N64 are two very different systems the Jag using general purpose JRISC instead of the tried and true MIPS the way the PS1 and N64 did, butter smooth 3D graphics isn't possible in the same way for the console to come after it except for when it came to the 2.5D stuff (Doom, Phase Zero, Super Burnout i.e. OP). Not even "Open GL" would work on the Jaguar because it was most likely designed to work on the MIPS even though it was created around the same time the Jaguar was. It became my conclusion 2.5D or fake 3D would be something worth looking into and with the Jag having so many processors there was really no reason why making a smarter 2.5D engine wasn't couldn't be done. I still believe that today as I did in yester-years.

Gotcha...

You're right, that sort of thing is a lot of "nonsense", but if you ever have an ideas and want to post on a forum, that seems like a sure way of getting things started... If you don't want to get hated on or anything like that just keep your silly ideas to yourself and let's pretend that the forum is free to post ideas silly or not.

My mistake... I do get the flops confused sometimes. I'm not really focused on the flops as I am on learning to program in QB64 at the moment. I only painted that picture because it appears your trying to put on some kind of spot like you've done in the past... I mean what do you think I am, chop liver? Words like nonsense and idiocy, I think you enjoy trying to flip people off and get them out of character; It doesn't have to be that way and not trying stir things up here, but it appears like you and others try and stir other people up for whatever reason. I'm just calling it like I see it.

My fault??? I don't know what you're talking about... My world view is just fine, I just call it like I see it. Not quite sure what you're try to impose on me or what picture you're trying to paint of me, but no harm no foul right? SMH

I remember that... it reminds of a YouTube about that machine. The case it pretty decent, but it's been a while since I sat in a dentist chair; don't won't drilling in my mouth no time soon. lol I stand corrected... Was probably thinking about the PS2; I was watching about the system. I think anything that doesn't have the official "Reboot Atari ST" rubber-stamp seal-of-approval will always be considered to be nonsense in the eyes of some people here; It wouldn't matter what I post. That's just MO that prevails consistently, but that's OK. If the people like the games and they're buying, the more power to you; you don't see me publicly saying anything about it... Just as if the people like to keep this topic afloat, then more power the them. I think it was other people keeping this topic going where I hardly post things here like I use to so what does my 2 cent matter; if the people like it, let them keep talking about it. What I post was apart of a distant history; I see nothing wrong putting it out there. Of course you don't have to replace the bios anymore today, but at one time you did if you wanted to program the Jaguar.

I remember that topic... I think he was looking at how Lucas Games hacked the N64 for Rouge Squadron to run butter smooth by replacing the system bios with something more efficient. I think all of that may have stemmed from that old BJL era replacing the physical Atari bios chip with another with BJL burnt on it using the old server card for the Atari ST and Falcon. It would've been cool to have found a software solution for doing something similar on the Jag what Rough Squadron did for the N64... That was some serious hard core shite, remember Battlesphere didn't even use the official encryption Atari provided so it was that sort of mentality about what the Jaguar had to offer. It certainly was what sort of inspired me to at least take a good look at the Jaguar for its strengths and weaknesses to the best of my understanding. Anything that PlayStation 1 or Sega Saturn is all but out of the picture for the Jaguar including Open GL. No modern 3D will do very well on the Jaguar so I would come to the conclusion for tweaking the living daylights out of the Jag was to draw on its strengths (Doom, Super Burnout, Phase Zero) and create something unique and hybrid. The GPU can't access ram like it ought to without a work around that's taxing, however it can handle so many teraflops of math at once thus I'd use that sort of gold nugget to come up with ideas. It was fun and still is to some degree today; I feel like if I get a really good handle on the Jaguar I can do some good stuff with it. Thanks for bringing that up InMain, that was a great memory.

I am... I've been spending time reading up on programming with "QB64" development environment for the PC, MAC, and Android, which seems like a decent place to kick things off. My only thing is I've spent a lot of time reading up on how the Jaguar works collecting info over the years I hate for that knowledge to go to waist. And yes I've been considering developing for more powerful modern console and porting down to retro; it certainly been on my radar to do. Also I've been looking at the "Atari 5200" where I recently got me one from eBay. It's kind of sad Atari wasn't able to over power the NES with the 5200; it certainly was more powerful with better resources, but that's for another topic. lol Don't want to through this topic off in a room full of Atari enthusiast. My desire to dev for the Cojag comes from a long drawn out dream from some years ago when I use to compare the console with the arcade counterpart. I'm a little more sober now versus the hardcore attitude I use to have some years back. 😉

Sad to hear... I remember seeing him around here reading topics here and there. My condolences.

Personally... I would love to dev for the Cojag hardware with the 68020 and the extra ram. Only in a perfect world; these days I'm focusing on the basics of programming let alone game making, this time without fail. Although extra and alternative hardware are dream for development, the software content is much needed in the Jag community, but if the Cojag was to ever become a consolized reality, I'm all for it 100%. I've been meaning to get my hands on a Cojag for sometime; I'll probably get one sometime down the road eventually.

Hi Shaggy... I remember reading sometime back the CoJag being redesigned where the board didn't have the same kind of bottlenecks that the game console had, which included one or more chips running on its own bus having about 6MB or more ram...? Eventually ditching the 68020 for the R3K MIPS processor. The cojag specs looks awesome on paper and sounds like a dream console to dev for; something I've always wanted to make games for. I eventually let go of the concept of making something for the Cojag just to sort of get grounded on the fundamentals just making a simple Jag game. It's really too bad considering all of the stories I'd hear about the 68000 hogging bus on the console and what have you, and how it was suggested to just turn the 68K off and just use the JRISC, which I've always thought would be a waist of a good chip not to use it in any manner what-so-ever. A more non-parallel approach to working with the Jag processors was a promising thing to consider at one point. The Jag is quite a unique system; a mixed bag of being very 3D capable, but not as good as the PS1 or the Sega Saturn, but can do everything an SNES or Genesis can do plus more so there's wiggle room for some good things as far as pushing the system to the limit. Can handle Doom well, can handle voxels very well, can do fast zooming/scaling via the OP; I use to refer to the Jaguar as a "2D Monster" and I still do thus it's strength is in the pseudo 3D or 2.5D (fake 3D) stuff. Not to put misinfo out there or anything of that nature, that's just my core stance when it comes to the Jaguar console.

Ok... I can't believe I missed this. This is great. The Lynx is very capable little system with the math co-processors on it. Congrats VR!