DanOliver
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Posts posted by DanOliver
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My goodness. The very last thing I would ever try is to convince anyone is that such things are possible. I don't know why anyone would have the need to try and convince me that such things are impossible. I do understand why people would try and convince themselves.
But, just looking at the ballpark numbers...
Cost of cart, box, manual say $10.
Sales price of game $75.
Profit $65
Units sold: 150
Gross profit $9750
Development time: 6 weeks
8 games released per year gross profit: $78,000
Now, yes, anyone can shred those estimates, please, enjoy yourself. Certainly the entire amount wouldn't be collected in 365 days since sales of the last couple of games would spread into the following year. And people can debate whether that's enough money for a person to live on. And I've certainly read long debates here on whether a game could be sold for $75, but a $25 game in 1980 adjusted for inflation is about $75.
Having another person create the cart, box, manual and sells channel would of course reduce the gross profit to $6-12k and yeah, that's not a reasonable income. So yeah, that type of business model isn't very interesting. That's true for most products.
Can any of these hypothetical games be ported to HTML5 or Facebook to leverage the design cost? I see no reason why not. But of course if a person doesn't think it's possible then well, yeah, it certainly wouldn't be possible.
Any of this guaranteed? Let's not be completely silly.
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I know games are big business, I beg to differ though, in terms of considering a 2600 game an "income" of any significance. I have programmed professional games all my life, one of the latest ones I worked on, you may have seen on TV.
That's nice.
I disagree with any premise that implies a game designed for the 2600 can't also be implemented on other platforms and earn a very good income. I get it's not common, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Especially today with so many web based game publishers.
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You don't need much to live on, I guess.
Assuming the emoji is suppose to mean the statement is sarcastic...
Creating a game for the 2600 assumes, I assume, that the only cash would come from the 2600. I'd be surprised if there's a single professional game designer in the world who would design any game for a single platform, or not have in mind possible web site promotion, licensing, books, movies, etc... Games are a big business. It doesn't really take that much additional effort to design a game with those possibilities in mind.
I get most are very skeptical of such things. That's what makes it interesting.
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- Do you want to professionally create and sell Atari 2600 games as your main paid occupation?
Yes
- What would be the fundamental differences between the games you sell as professional products, as opposed to those produced and sold as homebrew games?
Mine would be be produced professionally.
A person who produces a game with the intent to sell it as their main paid occupation and wants to call what they do as homebrew is of course within their right. It's not what the term means, but like I said, making up meanings to words is all the rage. Pretty much everyone does it. It seems a partially favorite pastime online when trolling.
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Oh....and I don't want to sell homebrew games, I want to sell professional games.
I'd like to know your definition of the difference between the two.
I try not to make up my own definition of words although I do understand doing so is all the rage these days.
From Google...
professional
1. relating to or connected with a profession.
2. (of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.From Urban Dictionary...
homebrew
1. a beer brewed at home
2. any of a number of creations or modifications by an individual or group on an amature level at homeLet me know if you require further clarification. I wasn't an English major so maybe I'm not the best person to ask as the two words seem pretty clear to me.
Or if you wanted to know if I was implying some derogatory meaning in the hopes of a flame war please ask that directly. Thanks.
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I guess collectors could rent the game, keep it, and see the deposit as just the price.
Hmmm, was thinking, well, I could then buy another Melody board to replace that unit. Now I'd right back to trying to get more boards so that's not thrilling.
Maybe overthinking this. If I can cache 10 boards before I start a game I'd know it could be released at least. Not optimal, but get's me out of being at the whim of whoever. Then after that if I can get more boards then cool, if not, then that's it. And actually if I have trouble getting more boards and players want the game they could contact whoever to lobby for access. That would probably work.
This would mean something like a few units being released each month or whenever. Would the community be cool with that?
The problem I was having before is I wanted hundreds of boards, which if I remember right Batari had to solder by hand. I'd hate to have to solder 1,000 boards by hand so can't blame him to be vague on delivery. I think I was pushing for a way to get these wave soldered or some automated method. Maybe we couldn't get the run large enough, I forget, but got nowhere.
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So it will only ever be an extremely limited production to be hoarded by collectors. So guys like me, who actually might have an interest to play your game, can't.
That really depends on how it's released.
What would be the response if the game were say for example rented? Say $10 to rent a game for a month? For me playing the crap out of a 2600 game is plenty, maybe renting for another month after a year. There would be a deposit of course, but not crazy. Maybe the renter gets to keep the box since a run of boxes is cheap per unit and that I have no trouble sourcing. So the game would come to each renter in a new box.
I get a game can be released as just code and run in Harmony or an emulator. But to me, that's not appealing as a designer. The box, the cart to me was substantial and a big part of a game. Maybe because for me it was the hardest parts to create. When people were making Apple II games, putting them on floppies and selling them in zip lock baggies it wasn't appealing to me. Great games no doubt, but just seemed cheap, like anyone could do it. When you have to design, buy and assemble the cart, box, art, manual, etc... it really kind of forces you to think...crap, I'd better make this game as good as I can.
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If you could help with the new bus-stuffing driver that would be awesome. Since the driver is so close to hardware you really need to be set up with a logic analyzer to be effective though. Would you at least be comfortable with doing a little soldering and bread boarding? It's nothing complicated, basically you just need to create a breakout box to attach the logic analyzer to the VCS address and data bus. It's less than $200, including the logic analyzer, to get something similar to this:
Absolutely. I can handle soldering and bread boarding as long as I'm told exactly what goes where. You can email me 3635 at waterbugdesign plus com if you like.
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I would recommend against cloning the harmony/melody boards. There are much more powerful microcontrollers available now. Something with hardware FPU would be nice.
There's still some uncertainty around bus-stuffing, so I think it makes sense to get it working on the harmony first. Then if the harmony isn't strong enough the driver could easily be ported over to a more powerful microcontroller with minimal effort. It's already known that the melody board just wires an NXP LPC2103 directly to the VCS buses. It would be fairly trivial to do the same thing with a newer LPC series. Something like a LPC4078fbd100 would probably work nicely. In low volumes I think you'll be surprised with the total cost of each assembled board though. I can't imagine there is much margin on the harmony carts.
I've always been disappointed that the DPC+ driver wasn't open source. Had it been I'm pretty sure we'd already have bus-stuffing by now. The harmony is a good piece of hardware that has been held back by software. It's just a shame that the entire community wasn't able to contribute to the software.
I'd be thrilled to be able to write for something better than Melody. I'd be willing to kick in cash, maybe others would. Be great to make it all open source.
I suck at hardware so no help there. But anything I can do software wise I'd be happy to help. Developer system, tools, drivers.
One thing though...Hardware people often look at these things from a hardware standpoint, of course. They see the hardware as they designed and them have a specific expectation. I on the other hand look at hardware as something to be exploited, violated, bent over a chair so to speak. So I would very much like to get a board built with whatever goodies a hardware designer can cram in then design a game. Designing a game for Melody and porting it just sounds a little limiting to me. But I don't really know anything about hardware. It just seems if the new board had a more powerful CPU, maybe a FPU, or whatever, that a game could be designed better to exploit those features.
And I say screw cost. And screw making it easy to program. I never really understood this C++ thing. C++ easier than Assembly, or libraries making it easier. Well yeah, for doing "a" game. Not for doing the greatest games ever.
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If you choose to manufacture tiny cartridges compatible with the Atari portable that would elimiate your production problems and maximize the size of your target market simultaneously because your tiny cartridges would also be compatible with full size classic Atari's via the Harmony mini-cartridge adaptor (sold seperately):
PIXELS rare blue mini Atari 2600 cartridge.jpgThat approach would limit you to old-school memory expansion and bank switching like with the StarCastle release that was done in 8K via Kickstarter; that's one way to ensure you have funding for your classic game - I think people liked that the StarCastle project was programmed in optimized Assembly and that a programmer from the 80's wrote it - I prefer it to the other StarCastle (also a great game) because the gameplay reflects that.
Conversely if you go with a Melody solution you've got KITT in the cartridge but you minimize your market segment by dropping support for the current Atari consoles that are on the market and their actively expanding user base. And as you've observed, you cannot control or gaurantee production.
Hmmm... I have to check out the portable. Thanks.
However, I still want to target Melody or similar board. It's hard to describe...desire to make the best 2600 games ever. You know, writing this I had a thought. I have been focused on a market of 100-200 carts per game. Maybe I should just release 5-10 copies. I can get Melody boards for that number. Hmmmm, indeed.
Maybe target the portable for other games. Not super appealing, kind of same old same old. But maybe.
OK, talked myself into it. If I can't get a Melody type board that I can produce I'll just do 5-10 copies. Thanks for the back and forth, helps me think.
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Dan when you wrote Video Games for Atari in the 80's you were given constraints but didn't have to worry about any of the production issues outside of that, and you also didn't have to worry about the size of your target market.
Size of the target market was always a huge concern in designing a game.
At VentureVision production issues for me was a bigger issue than game design. I loved designing the cardboard insert in the box to keep the cart in place, that saved us time and money. I learned the entire production process at Apollo in order to start VentureVision.
At Atari, yes, I lost production control. That sucked. The cart, box, manual to me is as much a part of the game as the game itself.
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Fun is the only reason games for old consoles are still programmed.
Are you willing to make money writing 2600 games?
That's unlikely.
Thanks. Been told that type of thing on many ventures by endless amounts of people. Sometimes they were even right.
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Also, keep in mind they do this in their spare time, and health and other real life issues have precedence, so if you didn't hear back for wathever reason....
Bingo. That is the entire issue. It's totally cool for people to do whatever they like, no problem.
For me I want to produce some 2600 carts and therefore need a source I can depend on. Therefore that source can't be anyone who does it only when they want to unless of course that person is me. So I'm looking for someone who can help deliver a board I can take to a manufacturer and produce.
Cases, labels, boxes I have handled.
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I think I read in the past that, only for large quantities, you could buy melody boards and the programmer from Batari.
That was my understanding too. But actually making that happen is an entirely different experience.
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IMO you have two options here:
- Either you cooperate with Al, one way or the other
- Or you find someone who creates the hardware you need for you
Both options have their pros and cons, its up to you to decide which way to go.
BTW: Boulder Dash uses a Melody board, IIRC.
Yes, I choose option #2. Anyone wanting to help? Otherwise, yeah, I'll look other places. Of course the harder this process is the less fun, the less chance of completion.
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That's a good question. I don't really know. I'd like whatever gets the most stuff on the screen. I don't really care how or what language.
I assume it would kind of depend on the game whether loads of ROM/RAM was better. Are the BoulderDash boards/design available?
I really don't understand hardware. It's kind of like the original Atari. The hardware designers create it thinking it can do Pong and simple games. My job is to figure out how to make it do more. I never had any idea what chips were in a 2600. I just knew what values in what memory locations did what.
I want to get my hands on something with the most power, something I can manufacture, and see what I can make it do. Melody sounded like it's got a lot of power, that makes it my prime target. I'd rather have more CPU power than ROM/RAM if I had to guess.
I want to target a single board and do several games. It takes a few to really understand and exploit a system. And it's cheaper, or at least easier, to use the same board for several games.
Open to suggestions. I've been kind of waiting a long hoping something would become available. Was hoping this project was it, but sounds dead now.
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Perhaps I'm not explaining myself very well....
I want a board that provides Melody type power or better.
Is there any source other than Albert and Batari?
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Oh....and I don't want to sell homebrew games, I want to sell professional games. I think that is the issue. In order to do that I need a board source. This puts me into competition with Albert so surprise he's not thrilled at the prospect. I wouldn't be either.
So, I'd welcome any help in the creation of such a board.
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Talk to Albert. If you want to sell homebrew games that utilize DCP+, he can provide you with melody PCBs I think, if you have a game to place on them. DCP+ ROMs currently work on Harmony and Stella emulator for PC/Mac/Linux. Plenty of options for playing ROMs as well as selling carts.
I'm sorry, but I'm completely baffled why you think I didn't already do that.
Let try to be super clear here.......It is completely insane to think any serious game creator would put themselves completely in the hands of another person/company. Can you imagine Activision writing games and then asking Atari to produce the carts and sell them?????
If Albert happens to have a few games in his pipeline well, too busy, or whatever, then it's sorry Charlie.
I would never in a million years ever put effort into the development of a product without very clear path to release. That apparently is completely unavailable going thru Albert. It's very much a...well maybe...do the game and let's see... And just to get that "response" takes weeks.
Yes, if I was willing to just write a game for fun, then sure...here Albert, do whatever you want...then sure, great channel.
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Sorry, yes it was the Melody board I tried to purchase in quantity. And yeah, perfect solution...except for actually getting them in quantity, or feeling like a reliable source could be had. Seems impossible. It's one thing to say something is available and completely another matter to actually get them. If I remember correctly just getting emails returned took weeks. And the answer was always...well maybe. If I'm going to spend weeks writing a game I'd kind of like to know I could actually produce the cart.
Yeah, I've heard about this cost thing...a lot. I may be wrong but wouldn't the cost per board be under $10? Maybe way under like maybe $4? I see no reason that should be a factor in selling a game for $75. If it's a kickass board and a kickass game.
I don't care if it's a Melody clone or grafts a monkey brain to silicon. Any board that can get the same or better performance would be great. I only care about power. I want the chance to make the best game the 2600 has ever seen.
Unfortunately I suck at hardware. But maybe I can learn enough to knock off a board.
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The problem is only a few people can make a Harmony cartridge and I don't think the design is open source. I'd rather have other options even if they're re-inventing the wheel. At least you're not subject to a single person or small group of peoples' whim.
Very true. I tried to buy Harmony cards or license the design awhile back and got no where. Would be great if someone came up with something that developers could use. I don't want to write a game that requires players to own a Harmony cartridge. I want my game to be in a standalone cartridge. It's really been very frustrating.
I'm willing to paid for prototype boards and/or a board run and give a number of boards to anyone who can make a Harmony clone...standalone, no loading lots of games. Or discuss other terms.
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I'm normally after a specific feature so I only go into detail with those parts. The rest uses generic labels, enough to assemble. I can change code and see the results to make sure I understand the part I care about. So length of time depends how fast I can grasp a feature.
For a first game to see overall structure I don't need to go into a lot of detail.
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Some of the greatest games are pretty simple, video and otherwise. Just like in movies, lots of special effects will sell some tickets, but that alone can't make a movie great. To me polish means tweaking how the game reacts to user input...smooth, makes sense, player doesn't ever struggle to move. Second is the difficulty level, fun to play while learning how and then also ramps to difficult and then to almost impossible. Give them an experience, feel natural.
This tweaking normally requires very little code changes, hopefully. But it takes a lot of playing, time and very critical eye. You also have to have some level of player in you too. I'm not a great player so I can test the starting and middle level. For the hard I have to guess based on the middle level settings. For impossible it's more technical, figuring out if your joystick movements and windows to accomplish a tasks are possible. If say player has to move 10 lines vertically to accomplish a goal and they can only move one line per frame and you give them 8 frames they can't win, not cool. So something needs a tweak.
If you can get others to test that's great too. IMO that can't be remote, you have to see how they react, how they do, and say nothing while they play. If remote then a video of them playing and the screen is the next best choice. However, player testing is not a substitute for the designer. They'll make suggestions maybe, consider them if you want, but don't lose track that it's your vision and rep on the line.
But, if you really aren't happy with a game then screw it, do another. Release the ROM. Do you want just anything with your name on it or your best effort? Second game will go faster and be better. Only you can judge.
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I only did it for screen drawing code and only when I got close to working. After counting and a little tweaking I'd know I was maxed out or N cycles under, Any changes from then would be small so just add/subtract the changes. Kind of like counting cards. Pretty quick the cycle counts are memorized so pretty easy. I never put cycle counts in the source file. Too easy to get out of sync and then be misleading for me.
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Designing a cartridge that supports 100% C/C++ game development
in Atari 2600 Programming
Posted
Wow, I'm a bootlegger now. I guess it doesn't matter that I said ripping off Melody isn't a viable option, that a large part of the community would likely boycott (pretty sure I used the same words as you...but I 'm a bootlegger. More fun to read just the parts.
To prove myself as a developer...an interesting idea. I should consider that. Yes, and then the owners of Melody might consider working with me. Great advice if I were a veal calf.
Please excuse me from this discussion.