DanOliver

Wonderfully delicious loads of crap. In the very long list of conspiracies an crap that passes for news this one seems pretty harmless and entertaining. Grading on the curve.

Aren't most conspiracies a creative endeavour? That's what makes them so delicious. My guess is they find Jimmy Hoffa.

The crushing of products matches this being a tax write off. Kind of a silly thing but it helps shows the inventory is indeed worthless. The concrete too. The worker who I think said the concrete was to stop kids from going thru the dump I assume was speculating, or someone told him just as PR spin. I doubt Atari executives told him their real reasons.

Scott Stilphen emailed me this NPR article... http://www.npr.org/b...nearly-30-years Pretty funny the way "news" is written. In one sentence the "dump" and in the next "Mindlink". They don't actually say Minlinks could be in the dump...they leave that to the reader's imagination. To me the dump is a big story as a monument to stupidity. Step 1. Offer a huge amount for a license with having no idea what your market is. Step 2. The only way we can make back our license cost is to sell (build) more games than there are consoles. Buildings filled with suits thinking that's a good idea. It's a testament to the products that it took the suits that long to drive it into the ground.

Recently I've been reading interviews by other 2600 programmers and where ideas came from and was surprised how many games I thought were 100% original were based so heavily on other games. Kaboom for example is one I always thought was 100% original. At Apollo we did get a lot of mail with ideas. And I think Wabbit was base on those. I remember we got 2 virtually identical Wabbit type game ideas from 2 completely different people. Both letters included a color picture of the game screen and even both drawings looked almost the same. It was scary weird. But in general companies didn't like having ideas submitted. Opens you to lawsuits and bad feelings because people think you ripped off their idea even if you never saw it. So Atari never did anything with submitted ideas as far as I know. It my case people would tell me the game idea. Like at Apollo I was given Demon Attack and told to "make that" and made Space Cavern. I knew they didn't mean steal Demon Attack, they wanted something like it. Call it based on or inspired by. I assume all games are inspired or based on other games. Once you've seen a game it's going to have some influence. My own personal belief is a game is created at the keyboard, at 2 am, day after day, night after night. If the game consumes you it will be pretty much all you think about. You play it over and over in your head at the same time you're programming, eating, in the shower, all the time. That's when ideas come, but they're connected to code you've already written. And the game play comes in fine tweaks to get movement just right, collision detection perfect, scoring not too easy and not too hard. Perfection of course isn't possible but trying to get as close as possible is the goal. To me story lines come as the game is being created. Being tied to an initial idea is a problem. Like Star Castle and Yar's Revenge Couldn't do Star Castle but came up with Yar's Revenge, probably a better game than Star Castle could ever be on the 2600 in those days. Williamson's Star Castle is kick ass but Warshaw may have just seen Yar's Revenge and had to do that. Sometimes game ideas pick programmers. Then you look at cases where programmers had no choice and the results aren't great. Pretty much every movie license. So better to let the game tell you what it wants to be. Like "maid cleaning others appartments" is a start. But as you draw characters and get them on screen you might notice "that doesn't look like a very good maid" and get depressed. But then notice it looks like great penguin. Maybe it becomes a game about a penguin instead. One kernel of an idea I always have is some tech trick. Like Innerspace having explosion sprites generated at runtime in RAM instead of ROM is an idea I had while doing Rescue Terra I. But you can't scrap your current game and start over. So I start designing that trick into the next game in my head as I'm finishing my current game. A tech trick alone can drive the rest of the design. Ideas and concepts are not games. Don't let an idea or concept stop you from doing a great game.

Sorry, forgot to answer that earlier. There was no box or manual or anything for Innerspace. At that time we would have needed to sell some Rescue Terra games to get money to make Innerspace ROMs. Without ROMs on order we wouldn't have put a dollar into any kind of print material. There was like a 6-10 week lead time on ROMs which gave us plenty of time for boxes, manuals and marketing. So a ROM order was a go-no go point. Kept working on Innerspace hoping. But by the time it was done the game market was beyond all hope for the short term and we were almost out of cash. At the most Bob Hesler would have typed a manual into his computer, but I don't remember it. I think there was a question about the artist for the Rescue Terra I box/manual. I remember we interviewed a local artist who painted space art, nebula type stuff, maybe some NASA stuff. I think he was hired for the box/manual art. His paintings were very good, but I don't think he'd ever done packaging. Plus I doubt we could pay much so he wouldn't have been able to put in the time needed to do something really good.. Unfortunately no source code, no notes, no business cards. I have zip. Pre digital cameras, so taking pics was a bigger deal. I have one B&W of me a local newspaper did which I think I still have. We were pretty much heads down working trying to get it off the ground. Funny, I was thinking today I should put another contest flyer in a new game as a parody. 30th annual non-contest - Grand prize $5. In general I'm not thinking along the lines of doing any kind of collector repack of old stuff. That would more of a marketing thing, not my strength or interest.

I don't think JTS paid anything for Atari Corp. They just merged on paper with agreements like the Tramiels being able to sell Atari assets as compensation. Just a cheaper way to wind down two companies. Maybe JTS losses were used to offset Atari income to not pay taxes. Tax code is written by corporations so they can do stuff like this. I look forward to the book too. Tramiels were pretty interesting. I never had a clue what they were thinking or trying to do.

I think I'm close to a plan... I discussed two points with my wife today. Could a profit of $1000 per game be a reasonable business plan? I think it could. The concept is that would be a break even point of sorts. To make that work I'd have to do each game in one week. With tools and experience I showed on Telepathy one week is not unreasonable. Game design would be done while I worked on other projects, which is how I always did game design anyways. Doing a game in a week would allow me to do lots of games and other projects that pay better. That would allow me to maybe stumble into a cross over game. Something I could port to a larger market. That's where the profit would be. So you all would basically be supporting game research. The other point I presented was from the Princess Rescue discussion on price. Put a really high price on games, like $75, and just let the crap hit the fan. The biggest benefit is me not having to think about price any more and just let the market decide as it should. The artist in me likes that price too because to sell game after game they would have to be good, really good. That would push me to do better and better games. Doing more crappy 1980 games is not very appealing at any price point. Been there, done that. I want to do games that you'll eat PB&J to play. If I can't do that I shouldn't be making games. I think what will happen is I will do a mix and it will just depend on the game and let you all decide if a game is worth the price by either buying or not buying. Voicing strong opinions in forums is fine, but at some point the rubber has to hit the road. I think I have enough info now. I still need to talk with Albert about the nuts and bolts. If I can fit games in with my other products sometime in the future I'd love to do some games. I'm going to have to go kind of incommunicado for awhile and finish my current project now. Software development eats time and I have to focus. It's been an intense few days. Been fun bring back forgotten memories. Been very interesting to learn about this whole retro game scene. Thank you all very much for all your help learning this stuff. Blog So I don't lose track I've set up a blog called VVHQ where I will post any news about any 2600 game development in my future. You can follow that blog to get the first word of me starting a game, demos, focus tests, progress, etc. I sure look forward to hopefully being able to do something.

That's a really interesting plan. The designer part of me would like to do a new company style box,,,the marketing side says kept the 1982 campy style. And I get the impression more people would like the 1982 style. I'm slowly trying to get into sync with the current market. I always tried to do games/products for users. So 'a' would allow me to keep Rescue Terra I in the lineup and still have a new box style. But the rest might not be possible which may make 'a' not desirable. And Rescue Terra I's big claim to fame is being R9. Kind of hate to screw with that at in any way. If I found a big box of 200 Rescue boxed sets in my attic I'd take them to NM and put them in a landfill. Better the game be known for being rare than not known. Innerspace was ready to ship imo. Imagic (I like to think Rob Fulop) said they fixed some bugs, 4 as I remember. But these were small cosmetic type things and they changed the game and company name. I've read people saying some graphics were changed but I don't know anything about that. VentureVision would have shipped Innerspace as is. I assume the screen shots at AtariProtos is the version of Innerspace I gave to Image. Here's the rub...I don't have the rights to Innerspace. I know I could probably get away with releasing Innerspace and I know there are lots of games being released that to me people don't have the rights to and I know it's all pretty harmless...but I earn my living writing software and taking other people's stuff, no matter how harmless, is not something I would ever want to do. Dump their carts and steal their techniques, oh yeah. All day long. I don't think that infringes on rights. So releasing Innerspace would require permission which I wouldn't really want to deal with. But if the time came maybe someone else could do that. Would be cool to find and release Solar Defense. Unless rights were assigned Solar Defense could be in the public domain. I'd have to check that with Robert. Really like 'd' and 'e'. That would get me out of a corner. Keep the trilogy and then I would be more free to do a sequel trilogy or whatever. The money thing...I'm not really trying to raise money to do a game. The cost isn't that high. Time is actually the main issue. Being able to fit games into my current business plan. Actually writing code is not the biggest time cost, it's everything else. I need to be able to reduce time cost, leverage with other products, leverage cost of building tools. I've been reading the Princess Rescue thread and people talking about prices. There were some good points about a $39 game in 1980 being adjusted for inflation to be $107 dollars today. But I've also read a lot of posts of people saying they want a game at $50 but might not be able to afford it. So there's a tug of war...I want as many people as possible to play my games...but the artist in me wants players to share in the pain of producing a game. I want players who would eat PB&J for a week to play my game. I want them as into the process as I am. It's hard to describe. Money is a part of it, but only a part. More of a unit of measure. I am the Soup Nazi.

Yes I worked at Atari and Atari Corp and left 1/86. I did some debugging on Desert Falcon 7800 as a contractor later but don't remember the date. Commodore was indeed all Jack's, which is why I think it was personal. Same deal as when Steve Jobs got pushed out of Apple and started Next to show Apple they were wrong. But this is all just my impression.

I just read the thread on ordering Princess Rescue and saw Albert was the person to contact. I have to find the email address, thanks. Checked my PM list and maybe my PM to Albert never happened cause I don't see it. I will email. I also read a 2007 thread by Andrew asking about what price people would paid for BD. There most seem to be players and said a box didn't matter, but for Princess most people wanted boxed. Also read up on Halo 2600. It's starting to sink in. Every game is different which is cool. I also had concerns about an odd shaped box. I've seen a bunch of pics of collectors' shelves and it does look nice and even. I think maybe better to just go with a VentureVision blue box, maybe same font. Tradition. Make it look like we didn't miss a beat. I've talked myself out of the crazy box...so here's what I'd been thinking. Tin box with a hinged door and a plastic window. Or a solid door and I could etch the "label" on the front with a limited edition number. Came in gold too. I think collectors would prefer traditional. I'll check them out thanks. For sure I think a CD would be a novelty. And really could just be an MP3. I don't think extra memory helps with the audio quality on the 2600. Pitfall is about as good as it gets, unless I missed something that changed.

iesposta, thanks. I've been reading what I can about Boulder Dash, talk about a classic game. 10 years, lots to read. I'll search for PacManPlus posts. The cd with Adventures gave me an idea...music or radio background chatter to be played while playing the game. Kind of an overlay for your ears. Ever been done? Hadn't run into this release. More reading.

I think the big screw up was trying to present it in a forum. A game can't be designed in a froum. The ideas I'll keep for down the road. I saw a thread like that but couldn't understand that would work. Didn't think to use "limited" and "unlimited" search terms, found a lot now with those, so that's gold. Celebrity? Like the chicks on Bad Girls Club? Woo hoo!

I have no idea, but assume they thought it was a cheaper way to sell off assets and walk away with some money while keeping as much value in the brand as possible. If Atari calls a company and says "we want to sell everything" it's a fire sale. If JTS calls you and says "we merged with Atari to get ABC but we don't really want XYZ part" it's not as desperate sounding, better price. I would bet Jack Tramiel had a good prior relationship with whoever was in charge at JTS. There weren't any lawsuits that I know of so everything probably went according to plan, there were no surprises. I doubt JTS sucked Atari dry. More likely Jack Tramiel's plan. He was sharp, had very sharp lawyers and knew how to use them. I remember once the Atari Corp general counsel (I think) was in our office talking about a pending Commodore lawsuit and said it was a completely bogus suit with no merit...and he knew this because he's the one who filed it when he worked at Commodore. Don't know if what he said was true, but sounds about right. I assume insiders on both sides took money out before the bankruptcy and that was the plan. That kind of thing would have to take place over time. You can't paid yourself a million dollar bonus on Monday and declare bankruptcy on Friday. Court is going to see thru that. Got to be done all nice and legal. So there would be the surface story that you'd want everyone to believe and then what was said at dinner between Jack and someone at JTS. No doubt also perfectly legal, but maybe better left between friends. I think Jack Tramiel's primary motivation to start the whole Atari Corp thing was to kick sand in the face of those who pushed him out of Commodore. To do that Atari Corp would have had to do really well, like Apple well. When it was clear that was never going to happen there was no point to continue. Get what cash you can out and call it a day. He also wanted to work with his sons of course. As far as promising support...you don't want trouble when doing something like a merger. A lawsuit can derail the whole mess. So you promise everything to everyone and the merger goes smooth. After the merger you can deal with any lawsuits and still do whatever you like. It's kind of strange, we look at it as lying but as corporate officers they're pretty much bound by law to lie. It's their duty to stock holders and creditors to keep as much value as possible. Lying to customers isn't very risky.

It could be a long time before I can get serious about doing a new 2600 game. Anyone interested in news about this in the future can follow this blog to get notifications. Thought this would be a way to stay connected. I'll only post when there's actual news and I'll post here first. And possibly updates on how the game is going. Should that happen I won't have too much time to read comments and no time for reading and posting in forums. So please forgive that. When done I'll have time. I have other projects to finish first, before I can consider any game. I have to concentrate on those projects first so I'll be absent until then.

Who has Rob Fulop's email address?

I appreciate your faith. I feel uncomfortable with the concept of pre-orders. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I don't think I understand the process or reasons for it. Questions below about this. The current market of 200 potential buyers is fine with me. I think the prices being paid for new games are very reasonable, even generous, and stable. My company model is to sell into niche markets, too small for most people. Normally I try for niches where the product sells a tiny amount, but does it month after month. I also try for products that have a chance to become very popular to make up for the failures. The 2600 market seems to be very reliable but a one time thing. That's making it a difficult pitch. Not a lot of margin for error. Shields are 1, fuel is low, but I still have ammo. Back at VentureVision the risk was huge. Today the risk is very low. Failure wouldn't cause people to go into bankruptcy. That's big plus. I have to really understand the market and think things through. So I'm researching and trying to figure out a new plan that seems viable. My first plan was a total and complete bust and won't be considered any more. Totally my fault. Probably too ambitious, too fast. Maybe a series of games that slowly showed players where I'd like to go would be better. Plus better feed back for me. Written concepts really don't work and I should have known better. Concepts have to be played to know whether they work or not. No way around it. I was trying to take a shortcut. I'll keep asking questions for as long as you'll let me. Why buy a game sight unseen? I've read about pre-ordering in several threads and am trying to understand this. I haven't experienced one of these sales and bits and pieces are missing from my searches. I've found threads about pre-ordering, and then the lists of who bought each cart, but I'm missing the middle part. Does that all happen via email? I couldn't find Boulder Dash for sale. Limited release or I just can't use Google very well? Boulder Dash looks like a great playing game...is it also considered a collector object? Does anyone know the reason behind the pre-order thing, like is it so someone knows how many labels to order? Or would more carts sell if there was only one chance? Fear of one cart being sold, dumped and posted? Do buyers like the pre-order arrangement or prefer some other method? Does anyone here know if the Melody carts are made to order? I haven't been able to figure out how that all works. I've search through the forums but having no luck and it would take months to read every post. I've searched "publish game" "self-publish". Getting no where. I PMed Albert a while back and haven't heard back. Anyone have a link or who to contact? What would be the attitude of members if a game was published thru some channel other than AtariAge? How much value do you placed on a traditional box? If a game was sold just as a cart and no box. Is it like $50 vs $30? Or collectors want boxes? How about a very untraditional box...could be cool or always uncool? Printed manual or would be an online manual with more be content better? This goes back to collector vs player I think. Over your length of experience would you say the demand for new games has gone up, down, side ways? I prefer not to do a poll. More info in words. Any feedback is appreciated.

Would it be blasphemy to think the Air Raid cart/box is a fake? Or is this an inside joke kind of thing? I Google the cart and nothing about it being a fake. I Googled "Air Raid Atari fake" and not much came up. I saw the video of them finding the cart and story and it seem like a typical internet joke. Or is this web page the joke and the carts sold real?

Stella has a TV effects mode...of course it does. Amazing. I think I'll stop asking what Stella can do and just assume it can from now on.

That's nice and grainy. Kind of strange to me. I'm used to thinking of the CRT gun zipping back and forth. Wonder how a monitor reacts to bugs like too many scan lines, wrong length scan lines. I haven't a clue how the video signal is converted to a monitor signal.

That's what I was thinking but then I heard Stella would fully emulate Melody including ARM code. That lead me to wonder if it was common practice to download homebrewed game Melody carts and posted for use on Stella. Thanks everyone for the equipment insight.

I was wondering if anyone had an idea of how most people do view 2600 games, CRT or monitor? We used to use a Sony Trinitron, push buttons, wood grain, sweet tube. How common is connecting a joystick to a PC? I don't have a joystick connected so playing 2600 games on the PC isn't that much fun. I could probably learn the keys better, but to me the Atari joystick is super important..

Apparently no one other than Viagra pushers were called a douche here. I think we're all on the same page. Does that happen very much to the honebrewers? Any copy protection in Melody? Can you get to the code in the ARM space?

Yeah I didn't read the first version that way at all, sorry. Now I think I understand what you're saying. Thanks.

I'll take you at your word. However, understand, I can only respond to what you write, not what you mean. I would still not call a game programmer a 'douche' in any context of compensation. I openly and clearly insult enough people already without adding misunderstood insults with hair splitting definitions. I can't really say I understand your meaning even with the clarifications, but it seems you were at least not trying to insult them. The insult I saw was, in addition to your words, in the context of having read several other older threads here where people were insulting artists for exercising their right to request compensation. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see that kind of stuff allowed by other members in a forum which supposedly promotes game development. Makes me feel like I'm back in 1982 asking to have my name on the box again. Personally I would have liked to have seen people ban together and leave the forum until the forum owners did something. To me that's support. Like the programmers who walked out of Atari and made it better for us who followed including today's programmers. Understand, this was serious stuff back then. It's still fresh in our minds. I understand as you said you're trying for clever word play...it might not be working. If you'd like your point considered I might suggest just stating the point clearly and leave the word play for less intense topics. People being paid a fair compensation is pretty serious when you're the one doing the work and paying the development costs. Hey dude, you're either word spinning or wrote a jacked up post. You wrote what you wrote. You clarified what you meant which is cool. But getting on my case because you like using the word 'douche' is on you. I'm not a mind reader, I didn't force you to write what you wrote. Nut up, clarify, and move on. No big deal unless you want to make it a big deal. This business about insulting me with telling me I have attitude in one sentence and in the next "let's try again"...you got gotta be high to think someone isn't going to have attitude with that kind of cheap crap. I don't know who you pull this with in this forum that lets you get away with that kind of behavior, but I can assure you will indeed get attitude back from me if I have the time. And of course you weren't sporting any attitude yourself....right? Easier to see in others. I understand. Now that's a good point. Worth discussion and consideration. Just gotta bring it right back to the gutter don't ya. You have good points. There's really no reason to be snarky. If you have points you're secure about there's no need to insult some else in the hope they will be intimidated and not challenge your point. Points can be understood, exchanged, and improved with respectful discussion. There's the good point again. How about we just try to concentrate on that for a few posts? I hadn't thought of this, thanks. I obviously would always think an artist is free to do with their work as they like. And having JAVATARI on their own hosted web page would allow for the artist to have some control over how the game played by not installing Google ads that allow audio, video, animation and popups. Even without ads the web isn't always a good experience, but most of the time it is. If the artist can afford the expense of a hosted web site that would be a good option. Web sites are pretty cheap and if the game is any good they could hopefully sell a few carts to cover the cost for at least for a little while. And the artist can show the game to friends, family and peers who don't have a 2600. In that context I think it's a good medium as long as the ROM can be kept safe from down load. There are a lot of content farms out there who have no problem stealing stuff and posting as their own. They've stolen from me which I wouldn't mind so much if they hadn't messed up the end product so bad. I think it's disgusting what they do. And they're so good at tricking Google, or Google is easily tricked, their ripped off jacked up content is always way ahead of my original content in search results. So most people only ever see the hacked up crap. As a stripped down demo only version I think JAVATARI it's a really great idea for new games. Never thought of that before. So I think it's a an idea worth considering. For me personally, just me, I would want my actual game to be played on a 2600. Not any kind of emulator. To me that's the experience I want my players to have. I want the grainy look on a TV, the entire screen used and no back button - title bar- distractions. I think it enhances the experience and given the amount of work that goes into getting every possible enhancement into the game I expect my players to be committed to the best experience too. I think things like JAVATARI are great for playing old games by casual players. And also JAVATARI is just plain mind blowing as a technology. But as a professional game programmer to only target that platform would not make any sense. I can give the player a lot more using modern technologies. At this point in time I would see JAVATARI as a self imposed artificial limitation. Kind of like when I debated for a short time whether a new game should use all the power of Melody. Hell yes was my conclusion. Use state of the art for that platform and there are still players for the platform so why not use the best tech available. There definitely is a WOW factor in being able to play games we played 30 years ago in a browser. For new games...not so much wow for me. It's like porting a 2600 game to an XBox and making it run exactly as it did on the 2600. Cool to be able to play old 1980 games on an XBox, but not so much for new games. I like listening to scratchy vinyl records on a turn table. Scratchy vinyl records on CD, not so much. I prefer they be remastered for the medium. On and on.