DanOliver
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Posts posted by DanOliver
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Here are some ideas I have for VentureVision:
a) Re-release Rescue Terra I. AtariAge can create reproductions and sell them through the store on demand.
b) Finish Inner Space and release it. You said there where a few bugs, I'm sure someone here would fix them for you.
I don't know what the contract with Imagic back then was and what the contract between Imagic and Activision was. Maybe Activision now has the rights for Laser Gates? It should be possible to get the ok from Activision.
c) Get in touch with Robert Weatherby and finish Solar Defense and release it.
d) Sell a signed collectors edition of the trilogy in a special collectors box.
e) Release a new sequel to the trilogy
That's a really interesting plan. The designer part of me would like to do a new company style box,,,the marketing side says kept the 1982 campy style. And I get the impression more people would like the 1982 style. I'm slowly trying to get into sync with the current market. I always tried to do games/products for users.
So 'a' would allow me to keep Rescue Terra I in the lineup and still have a new box style. But the rest might not be possible which may make 'a' not desirable. And Rescue Terra I's big claim to fame is being R9. Kind of hate to screw with that at in any way. If I found a big box of 200 Rescue boxed sets in my attic I'd take them to NM and put them in a landfill. Better the game be known for being rare than not known.
Innerspace was ready to ship imo. Imagic (I like to think Rob Fulop) said they fixed some bugs, 4 as I remember. But these were small cosmetic type things and they changed the game and company name. I've read people saying some graphics were changed but I don't know anything about that. VentureVision would have shipped Innerspace as is. I assume the screen shots at AtariProtos is the version of Innerspace I gave to Image.
Here's the rub...I don't have the rights to Innerspace. I know I could probably get away with releasing Innerspace and I know there are lots of games being released that to me people don't have the rights to and I know it's all pretty harmless...but I earn my living writing software and taking other people's stuff, no matter how harmless, is not something I would ever want to do. Dump their carts and steal their techniques, oh yeah. All day long. I don't think that infringes on rights. So releasing Innerspace would require permission which I wouldn't really want to deal with. But if the time came maybe someone else could do that.
Would be cool to find and release Solar Defense. Unless rights were assigned Solar Defense could be in the public domain. I'd have to check that with Robert.
Really like 'd' and 'e'. That would get me out of a corner. Keep the trilogy and then I would be more free to do a sequel trilogy or whatever.
The money thing...I'm not really trying to raise money to do a game. The cost isn't that high. Time is actually the main issue. Being able to fit games into my current business plan. Actually writing code is not the biggest time cost, it's everything else. I need to be able to reduce time cost, leverage with other products, leverage cost of building tools.
I've been reading the Princess Rescue thread and people talking about prices. There were some good points about a $39 game in 1980 being adjusted for inflation to be $107 dollars today. But I've also read a lot of posts of people saying they want a game at $50 but might not be able to afford it. So there's a tug of war...I want as many people as possible to play my games...but the artist in me wants players to share in the pain of producing a game. I want players who would eat PB&J for a week to play my game. I want them as into the process as I am. It's hard to describe. Money is a part of it, but only a part. More of a unit of measure. I am the Soup Nazi.
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Yes I worked at Atari and Atari Corp and left 1/86. I did some debugging on Desert Falcon 7800 as a contractor later but don't remember the date.
Commodore was indeed all Jack's, which is why I think it was personal. Same deal as when Steve Jobs got pushed out of Apple and started Next to show Apple they were wrong. But this is all just my impression.
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You may have to email Albert from the store front page. I wrote to him and he responded quick. However as was said Princess Escape has sold a ton of copies (what 200 maybe) in a few weeks so he is probably stupid busy printing maunuals.
I just read the thread on ordering Princess Rescue and saw Albert was the person to contact. I have to find the email address, thanks. Checked my PM list and maybe my PM to Albert never happened cause I don't see it. I will email.
I also read a 2007 thread by Andrew asking about what price people would paid for BD. There most seem to be players and said a box didn't matter, but for Princess most people wanted boxed. Also read up on Halo 2600.
It's starting to sink in. Every game is different which is cool.
Box- I don't buy them but something different would be cool. An opening clamshell for example, Others may hate it though since some collectors like everything to line up on a shelf.
I also had concerns about an odd shaped box. I've seen a bunch of pics of collectors' shelves and it does look nice and even.
I think maybe better to just go with a VentureVision blue box, maybe same font. Tradition. Make it look like we didn't miss a beat.
I've talked myself out of the crazy box...so here's what I'd been thinking.
Tin box with a hinged door and a plastic window. Or a solid door and I could etch the "label" on the front with a limited edition number. Came in gold too. I think collectors would prefer traditional.
Storefront- I buy from here but I've bought from Packratvg.com also.
I'll check them out thanks.
Music- that's one I don't get. We have more ROM to work with in the carts. I know the console is only capable of so much so can't that extra space be used for better in game music? That's what I'd want, in game on the cart. I don't like music that is in the background because it doesn't respond to level changes and such so it's usually annoying to me. Others however love to crank up a CD. That one I guess is too subjective to really make a call. I would not pay extra for an audio CD. I just really want it in the game instead.
For sure I think a CD would be a novelty. And really could just be an MP3.
I don't think extra memory helps with the audio quality on the 2600. Pitfall is about as good as it gets, unless I missed something that changed.
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iesposta, thanks. I've been reading what I can about Boulder Dash, talk about a classic game. 10 years, lots to read.
I'll search for PacManPlus posts.
The cd with Adventures gave me an idea...music or radio background chatter to be played while playing the game. Kind of an overlay for your ears. Ever been done? Hadn't run into this release. More reading.
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I don't think you gave your first idea much of a chance but that doesn't mean you came to the wrong conclusion.
I think the big screw up was trying to present it in a forum. A game can't be designed in a froum. The ideas I'll keep for down the road.
Some folks do both a limited, numbered edition and an unlimited edition.
I saw a thread like that but couldn't understand that would work. Didn't think to use "limited" and "unlimited" search terms, found a lot now with those, so that's gold.
Yes they are made to order. Albert is really busy right now so maybe he isn't checking his PMs. He usually gives celebrities (like you) the royal treatment.
Celebrity? Like the chicks on Bad Girls Club? Woo hoo!
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I have no idea, but assume they thought it was a cheaper way to sell off assets and walk away with some money while keeping as much value in the brand as possible. If Atari calls a company and says "we want to sell everything" it's a fire sale. If JTS calls you and says "we merged with Atari to get ABC but we don't really want XYZ part" it's not as desperate sounding, better price.
I would bet Jack Tramiel had a good prior relationship with whoever was in charge at JTS. There weren't any lawsuits that I know of so everything probably went according to plan, there were no surprises.
I doubt JTS sucked Atari dry. More likely Jack Tramiel's plan. He was sharp, had very sharp lawyers and knew how to use them. I remember once the Atari Corp general counsel (I think) was in our office talking about a pending Commodore lawsuit and said it was a completely bogus suit with no merit...and he knew this because he's the one who filed it when he worked at Commodore. Don't know if what he said was true, but sounds about right.
I assume insiders on both sides took money out before the bankruptcy and that was the plan. That kind of thing would have to take place over time. You can't paid yourself a million dollar bonus on Monday and declare bankruptcy on Friday. Court is going to see thru that. Got to be done all nice and legal.
So there would be the surface story that you'd want everyone to believe and then what was said at dinner between Jack and someone at JTS. No doubt also perfectly legal, but maybe better left between friends.
I think Jack Tramiel's primary motivation to start the whole Atari Corp thing was to kick sand in the face of those who pushed him out of Commodore. To do that Atari Corp would have had to do really well, like Apple well. When it was clear that was never going to happen there was no point to continue. Get what cash you can out and call it a day.
He also wanted to work with his sons of course.
As far as promising support...you don't want trouble when doing something like a merger. A lawsuit can derail the whole mess. So you promise everything to everyone and the merger goes smooth. After the merger you can deal with any lawsuits and still do whatever you like.
It's kind of strange, we look at it as lying but as corporate officers they're pretty much bound by law to lie. It's their duty to stock holders and creditors to keep as much value as possible. Lying to customers isn't very risky.
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Space Cavern was one of my favorite games when I was a kid, and still is, along with Demon Attack. Between the two, I actually prefer Space Cavern, because I like how you have to deal with side attacks (and I find it somewhat annoying how Demon Attack's demons break into little demons and swoop down on you with that high-pitched tweeting sound -- great game otherwise).
Who has Rob Fulop's email address?
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If you end up making almost any kind of a game for the VCS, I can promise you I will be buying it. The idea you've described is so different than anything I've heard of before, I have a hard time imagining it, but it sounds very interesting. I suspect that whatever you do will be really cool.
I appreciate your faith. I feel uncomfortable with the concept of pre-orders. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I don't think I understand the process or reasons for it. Questions below about this.
The current market of 200 potential buyers is fine with me. I think the prices being paid for new games are very reasonable, even generous, and stable. My company model is to sell into niche markets, too small for most people.
Normally I try for niches where the product sells a tiny amount, but does it month after month. I also try for products that have a chance to become very popular to make up for the failures. The 2600 market seems to be very reliable but a one time thing. That's making it a difficult pitch. Not a lot of margin for error. Shields are 1, fuel is low, but I still have ammo.
Back at VentureVision the risk was huge. Today the risk is very low. Failure wouldn't cause people to go into bankruptcy. That's big plus.
I have to really understand the market and think things through.
So I'm researching and trying to figure out a new plan that seems viable. My first plan was a total and complete bust and won't be considered any more. Totally my fault. Probably too ambitious, too fast. Maybe a series of games that slowly showed players where I'd like to go would be better. Plus better feed back for me. Written concepts really don't work and I should have known better. Concepts have to be played to know whether they work or not. No way around it. I was trying to take a shortcut.
I'll keep asking questions for as long as you'll let me.
Why buy a game sight unseen?
I've read about pre-ordering in several threads and am trying to understand this. I haven't experienced one of these sales and bits and pieces are missing from my searches. I've found threads about pre-ordering, and then the lists of who bought each cart, but I'm missing the middle part. Does that all happen via email?
I couldn't find Boulder Dash for sale. Limited release or I just can't use Google very well? Boulder Dash looks like a great playing game...is it also considered a collector object?
Does anyone know the reason behind the pre-order thing, like is it so someone knows how many labels to order? Or would more carts sell if there was only one chance? Fear of one cart being sold, dumped and posted?
Do buyers like the pre-order arrangement or prefer some other method?
Does anyone here know if the Melody carts are made to order? I haven't been able to figure out how that all works. I've search through the forums but having no luck and it would take months to read every post. I've searched "publish game" "self-publish". Getting no where. I PMed Albert a while back and haven't heard back. Anyone have a link or who to contact?
What would be the attitude of members if a game was published thru some channel other than AtariAge?
How much value do you placed on a traditional box? If a game was sold just as a cart and no box. Is it like $50 vs $30? Or collectors want boxes?
How about a very untraditional box...could be cool or always uncool?
Printed manual or would be an online manual with more be content better? This goes back to collector vs player I think.
Over your length of experience would you say the demand for new games has gone up, down, side ways?
I prefer not to do a poll. More info in words. Any feedback is appreciated.
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Would it be blasphemy to think the Air Raid cart/box is a fake? Or is this an inside joke kind of thing?
I Google the cart and nothing about it being a fake. I Googled "Air Raid Atari fake" and not much came up.
I saw the video of them finding the cart and story and it seem like a typical internet joke. Or is this web page the joke and the carts sold real?
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Stella has a TV effects mode...of course it does. Amazing. I think I'll stop asking what Stella can do and just assume it can from now on.
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I use mine with my Commodore 1084S monitor (click for full, undistorted image):
That's nice and grainy. Kind of strange to me. I'm used to thinking of the CRT gun zipping back and forth. Wonder how a monitor reacts to bugs like too many scan lines, wrong length scan lines. I haven't a clue how the video signal is converted to a monitor signal.
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It's worth mentioning that the supply of Melody boards is limited to certain trusted community members, so using a Melody-only cart format (like DPC+) is copyright protection in itself.
That's what I was thinking but then I heard Stella would fully emulate Melody including ARM code. That lead me to wonder if it was common practice to download homebrewed game Melody carts and posted for use on Stella.
Thanks everyone for the equipment insight.
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That's exactly how I like it, and a lot of people here on AtariAge feel the same way. The best way to enjoy Atari 2600 games is using the original hardware on a CRT.
I was wondering if anyone had an idea of how most people do view 2600 games, CRT or monitor? We used to use a Sony Trinitron, push buttons, wood grain, sweet tube.
How common is connecting a joystick to a PC? I don't have a joystick connected so playing 2600 games on the PC isn't that much fun. I could probably learn the keys better, but to me the Atari joystick is super important..
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Can we please refrain from calling other forum members "douches?" Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were "douches." The guys sending spam ads for Viagra and pr0n sites to my inbox are all a bunch of "douches." Programmers who sit and write computer viruses and spyware for fun or profit are "douches." Programmers who create homebrew games on classic game consoles are not "douches." Neither are 99.8% of forum members here.
Apparently no one other than Viagra pushers were called a douche here. I think we're all on the same page.
cartridge, although those aren't technically safe from pirates either.
Does that happen very much to the honebrewers?
Any copy protection in Melody? Can you get to the code in the ARM space?
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"But the programmer would be making the money if he puts his own game on his own web site and puts an ad next to the game or asks for money through PayPal or something, not some douche out there in Internet land."
Yeah I didn't read the first version that way at all, sorry. Now I think I understand what you're saying. Thanks.
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You read my post wrong or I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't calling a programmer a douche. If making money online makes a person a douche, I was saying that a programmer can be his own 'douche' and make the money himself instead of somebody else. I was playing with your word.
I'll take you at your word. However, understand, I can only respond to what you write, not what you mean.
I would still not call a game programmer a 'douche' in any context of compensation. I openly and clearly insult enough people already without adding misunderstood insults with hair splitting definitions. I can't really say I understand your meaning even with the clarifications, but it seems you were at least not trying to insult them.
The insult I saw was, in addition to your words, in the context of having read several other older threads here where people were insulting artists for exercising their right to request compensation. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see that kind of stuff allowed by other members in a forum which supposedly promotes game development. Makes me feel like I'm back in 1982 asking to have my name on the box again. Personally I would have liked to have seen people ban together and leave the forum until the forum owners did something. To me that's support. Like the programmers who walked out of Atari and made it better for us who followed including today's programmers. Understand, this was serious stuff back then. It's still fresh in our minds.
I understand as you said you're trying for clever word play...it might not be working. If you'd like your point considered I might suggest just stating the point clearly and leave the word play for less intense topics. People being paid a fair compensation is pretty serious when you're the one doing the work and paying the development costs.
The only attitude here is the one you're having right now. Maybe we're having a simple misunderstanding and I'm too stupid to explain myself clearly. Let's try again.
Hey dude, you're either word spinning or wrote a jacked up post. You wrote what you wrote. You clarified what you meant which is cool. But getting on my case because you like using the word 'douche' is on you. I'm not a mind reader, I didn't force you to write what you wrote. Nut up, clarify, and move on. No big deal unless you want to make it a big deal.
This business about insulting me with telling me I have attitude in one sentence and in the next "let's try again"...you got gotta be high to think someone isn't going to have attitude with that kind of cheap crap. I don't know who you pull this with in this forum that lets you get away with that kind of behavior, but I can assure you will indeed get attitude back from me if I have the time.
And of course you weren't sporting any attitude yourself....right? Easier to see in others. I understand.
I posted a message telling future readers of this thread how they can get their games to more people (for those who think very few people would be able to play their Atari 2600 games).
Now that's a good point. Worth discussion and consideration.
It had nothing to do with getting free games or stealing games or anything else you were going on about.
Just gotta bring it right back to the gutter don't ya. You have good points. There's really no reason to be snarky. If you have points you're secure about there's no need to insult some else in the hope they will be intimidated and not challenge your point. Points can be understood, exchanged, and improved with respectful discussion.
It's a very simple concept. If a potential homebrewer is thinking about making an Atari 2600 game, but is put off by how small the audience is, he no longer has to worry about it thanks to JAVATARI. More people will be able to play his game, even if they aren't Atari fans. He can put his game online on his own web site and try to make money from it in some way or he can put it online for free if he just wants people to play it.
There's the good point again. How about we just try to concentrate on that for a few posts?
I hadn't thought of this, thanks.
I obviously would always think an artist is free to do with their work as they like. And having JAVATARI on their own hosted web page would allow for the artist to have some control over how the game played by not installing Google ads that allow audio, video, animation and popups. Even without ads the web isn't always a good experience, but most of the time it is.
If the artist can afford the expense of a hosted web site that would be a good option. Web sites are pretty cheap and if the game is any good they could hopefully sell a few carts to cover the cost for at least for a little while. And the artist can show the game to friends, family and peers who don't have a 2600.
In that context I think it's a good medium as long as the ROM can be kept safe from down load. There are a lot of content farms out there who have no problem stealing stuff and posting as their own. They've stolen from me which I wouldn't mind so much if they hadn't messed up the end product so bad. I think it's disgusting what they do. And they're so good at tricking Google, or Google is easily tricked, their ripped off jacked up content is always way ahead of my original content in search results. So most people only ever see the hacked up crap.
As a stripped down demo only version I think JAVATARI it's a really great idea for new games. Never thought of that before.
So I think it's a an idea worth considering.
For me personally, just me, I would want my actual game to be played on a 2600. Not any kind of emulator. To me that's the experience I want my players to have. I want the grainy look on a TV, the entire screen used and no back button - title bar- distractions. I think it enhances the experience and given the amount of work that goes into getting every possible enhancement into the game I expect my players to be committed to the best experience too.
I think things like JAVATARI are great for playing old games by casual players. And also JAVATARI is just plain mind blowing as a technology. But as a professional game programmer to only target that platform would not make any sense. I can give the player a lot more using modern technologies. At this point in time I would see JAVATARI as a self imposed artificial limitation. Kind of like when I debated for a short time whether a new game should use all the power of Melody. Hell yes was my conclusion. Use state of the art for that platform and there are still players for the platform so why not use the best tech available.
There definitely is a WOW factor in being able to play games we played 30 years ago in a browser. For new games...not so much wow for me. It's like porting a 2600 game to an XBox and making it run exactly as it did on the 2600. Cool to be able to play old 1980 games on an XBox, but not so much for new games.
I like listening to scratchy vinyl records on a turn table. Scratchy vinyl records on CD, not so much. I prefer they be remastered for the medium. On and on.
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But the programmer would be the 'douche' making the money if he puts his own game on his own web site and puts an ad next to the game or asks for money through PayPal or something.
You see the world much differently than I do.
To me a person who labors to create a product has a right to sell it. I would not call that person a douche.
A person who spends their money for equipment, electric, food, rent, and spends 400-1000 hours of labor has a fundamental right to request some fee. One cent, 5 cents, $1, $5, $30,000 or $1,000,000. Whether or not someone wants to pay that fee is their choice. I don't think the user has any grounds to call that artist a douche just because the artist asks for some fee. If they want to jump up down and pound their fists on the ground like a soiled child just because they don't like the asking price they can do that, its a free country. And thousands of forums across the net have been created just for them to do so...and drive traffic to the web site of course. It's the new online economy, e-Whining. I love it.
I also think a "give me everything for free system" isn't going to produce good products. Most people who knock out hits game after game are going to catch on pretty quick, like after their first game, that some people in the world actually value their talent enough to paid something. And that being paid something allows for better equipment and more time to work on their craft and get better. That's appealing to a lot of people.
It's the system we have here at least for a little while longer and imo it works pretty well.
If you can convince people to produce good games for you for free that's great. That's also our system. If you can convince people to give you a car, pay your cell phone bill, get you the expanded cable package I say good for you. Write a free book so everyone in the world can get everything they want for free. Can't wait.
But if you expect people to give you free labor AND you expect to be paid for your labor...that's pretty douchey. AND if you take the product of that free labor and ruin it with a bunch of ads that make the product run like crap half the time...that's full on douche.
You all are into games so yeah, champion the cause to make sure game programmers are never paid. Maybe lobby congress and get a law passed. That would be cool, all the games would be free. Betcha they'd be great games too.
I have absolutely no idea how game creators deal with this type of attitude. I can't stomach it.
Good day.
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They'll play your game like they'd play any other free online game. So don't think you'd be wasting your time if you made Atari 2600 games (believing that very few people would play them). If you put in the extra effort to make the most fun, polished, high-quality, original Atari 2600 games that you can, you could end up with more players than you ever thought possible.
Good point.
Another perspective from one of the dudes doing the work...
For me someone saying they like something that's free has less meaning than someone saying they ate PB&J for a week so they could buy my product.
Just my opinion but I think it would be it would be better if authors of new games being played on sites using JAVATARI got paid at least 1 cent per play, or 1 cent per 10 plays, or whatever. But that's not the way the net works. Everyone wants free...except for the site owners of course who fill the page with ads to put tons of cash in their pocket. You can bet they want their money. Ray Kassar at least paid programmers something for helping him make a lot of money. Many sites have so many animated ads, sound, popups that the game stalls or jerks unless the the net just happens to have the bandwidth at the time to run the whole mess. Not really how I want my game played. "Oh your game was crap, it kept stalling."
I'm on the side of labor. I like what the Activision, Imagic, etc, programmers did and not stand for being door mats. I also think way better games was a direct result.
I'm old school. I know these days people expect programmers to work for free and think the programmers should also do whatever anyone says. To me there's zero respect in that kind of system. But it sure is a good system for the Kassar's of the world with web sites posting ads. Free content. And they even have a entire community pushing programmers to produce free content, up load ROMs and pay for servers so the Kassars hardly have to lift a finger. Sweet, sweet system for them.
For me, writing games for free so some douche can make money selling Viagra ads is something I would never find acceptable. But that might just be me.
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high voltage, I had fun and learned a lot too. Thanks.
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But please be sure to let us know if you decide to bring the sequel to a modern platform.
This trip down memory lane has reminded me why I never stuck with games too long. Not what happened here, but some other stuff via email. Humans forget the bad and only remember the good. Now that I've been reminded of the downsides I don't see me going back to games. It was a lot more exciting in 1982 when I didn't know crap.
I think the idea of a massively multiplayer somewhat-online asynchronous game is interesting!
I thought it would be too. I thought this community was a little more cohesive. Reading more threads put that idea to bed. Probably too small a user base to find more than a couple of people who would want to play together and who could play together. It seems most people play VCS to play VCS type games. People don't want a role playing FreeCell, they want mind numbing playing. If they want to play MMOG they go to other platforms.
For what it's worth here's a core dump of some other vague ideas I wanted to explore that anyone is free to use...
Morse code to communicate to the user and the user to communicate to the VCS. On screen text is a problem, voice is a problem. Wondered if morse code could work? Of course there could always be an option for getting around actually learning morse code, and that could be part of the fun. And of course morse code could be very simple at the beginning. Numbers for example would take someone about 2 minutes to learn if they wanted. For some people it would be a pretty cool skill to walk away with after playing a game for a few hundred hours as long as it's fun. Clearly some people would hate just reading "morse code" so that's a problem. Goldfish are more open minded than most humans.
Not sure if morse code was ever used in a VCS cart as part of game play. For that market back in 1980 I can't believe a company would allow such a game. No chance of working in the mass market.
Tons of levels given 32k ROM. It isn't like a game could have 8x the amount of graphics/levels that a 4k game would have. In a 4k game like 3.5k is used by house keeping cores. So 32k - 3.5k = 28.5k completely free for graphics/audio/level data. 28.5 / 0.5 = 57 times more space for graphics/audio/level data. Of course there would be a larger demand on housekeeping, but not a lot more. Say 50 times more in a single game, used well, it wouldn't even seem like a VCS game. You could afford to blow an entire screen budget for just a few seconds of good game play or transition. Could never afford that in a 4K cart. And you could get people to help design the graphics and levels. I see the graphic designs people have done here for labels...lots of top talent.
Saving state...Tell the game you want to save state and it would give you a 2 digit code to write down to enter later. Because every cart is custom made a small app could be written to generate a new cart image everytime so the code algorithm could be changed and codes would be unique for every cart. Codes couldn't be shared.
The entire concept of one off carts opens the door to lots of different tricks.
I'm not entirely sure how Melody works...but from what I read I wanted to try...2k RAM would make more of page zero RAM available. Placing self modifying kernel code on page zero could be interesting. But what I would have explored a lot more and I know works is generating graphics in RAM. Innerspace was limited to 8 or 10 bytes for this but it worked really well for explosions. And later I did more with this on other platforms. If I could have 100 bytes of page zero RAM I think some great and different graphics are possible, never before seen type stuff. And PLA can be used instead of LDA zeroPage,X, so 1 byte opcode instead of 2 and a register is freed up. I thought PLA was faster tha LDA by X but looked it up and they seem the same.
And of course executing on the ARM would be a huge advantage. People talk about the increase graphic abilities a lot which are indeed nice, but to me the type of game logic that could be done in the ARM would be way way ahead of anything else. Would allow for "impossible things" to become possible.
The VCS was a fun machine. And I do mean "was" for me.
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Even though players are important, their reactions should only be taken as feedback that you can use to make better games. Player comments shouldn't feed your ego or damage your self-esteem. When you have that attitude, you're pretty much bulletproof, so you won't usually take your ball and go home (no matter what people say or how much abuse you get from hubristic 'trolls'). It would be nice if you could find the time to make a new Atari 2600 game.
For I think the third time...wasn't a few posts here...they only confirmed what I'd read in other threads. The killer problem was thinking a game could be designed in a forum. I knew it was a risk, but thought role playing I could kind of simulate a game, evolve a design cheaper in the forum than by writing code. Then I could basically port the game, whatever that became, to the VCS and refine it more.
That was pie in the sky thinking. A thread would never be able to stay on track. I'm surprised it broke down so fast, but pretty clear this type of thing isn't remotely possible. And it meshes with what I've seen in all kinds of other forums too, on many subjects.
It would have been a lot of fun to do a VCS game...but it's just as much fun to do a lot of other projects too. You can see that as me taking my ball and going home. To me it's just evaluating the viability of a project and deciding whether to do this or that project, which I do a lot. For every project I do there's a bunch I have to skip for lots of different reasons.
The "ball going home" thing I get a lot, or my personal fav "you're afraid of success". They never seem to believe that I'm trying help them by not doing their project. That imo they'd be better off finding another programmer, or changing the project. Like in this case, you seem to have a bunch of programmers willing to do this or that kind of game...no reason they can't produce a game you'd like even better than I could produce. They probably understand what's wanted here better than I do. So get them to do the games you want.
The opinion door swings both ways. It's not just criticism that has to be taken in context, it's also flattery, reverse psychology, and you name it.
If this looked to be some big untapped market then yeah, sure, it'd be worth investing more time looking for a way to make it work. It isn't. If I dug in my heels for every project I ever wanted to do...well I wouldn't writing software today. I have to pick my battles.
There was one other small problem that popped up... I was hoping a good game could increase the market for VCS games. There has to be a bunch of people getting to the age where they have more free time and played VCS when they were young. Nostalgic toys are popular and could be even better going forward. But I made a dumb mistake and thought 1980 VCS players were my age and forget to factor in I was 27 then. So really maybe another 15-20 years for that possibility.
When I talk about markets I'm talking about end users, not money. If Bill Gates wanted to pay me a $100k to write a VCS game just for him I'd pass. I want products at least some group of people use and like. Makes me proud, like I'm helping out. Money is something that sometimes follows.
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There will always be members who have a strong opinions on how things can be done, what can or can't be done, what should or shouldn't be done. Take them for what they're worth, but please don't take any discouragement to heart if you believe in your vision.
I don't know how many mass market produces I've shipped, maybe 15-20. Help start more than a few companies, pitched a lot of ideas. Kind of a requirement for this line of work to not get discouraged by what others say.
However, when it's your market talking to you I think it's smart to listen. And like I said, it wasn't just a couple of posts here. I've been reading other threads and got a similar feeling of what kind of games people here wanted. Not really much interest in new stuff, and maybe even some resentment.
The only thing that pissed me off was the concept that somehow I couldn't produce a decent sequel to my own games. The hubris blows my mind. But that's part of the market and really no interest in serving that market.
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RevEng, it's a tricky thing. For any project I try to be in the ball park but still aim higher than I'm sure I can pull off. Then try and pull it off. That's what makes it fun.
1980 VCS was pretty limiting. Big then meant a new graphics trick. Today, being able to leverage the internet and Melody and how much more we know about games could be used to produce a mind blowing VCS game. I don't think it would be that much actual programming effort given graphics is still a limiting factor.
But, that game would different, probably not really what a lot of current players would want. Too small an audience to produce games for sub niches. On a modern platform smalls niches are fine because you're still talking thousands of possible players. But 6-8 weeks of work and maybe 10-20 players like it and the rest hate it because it's not clone of something already cloned a dozen times and you have to listen to that crap...not fun.
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Thanks Rom Hunter, but I think the game is inappropriate for this market.
All projects I start have to go thru my wife who acts as a kind of manager because to me every project is exciting and I want to do. She does the math. My first pitch, just a VCS game to kick Demon Attack's butt, got shot down. My second pitch was being able to produce follow up carts faster because the power in Melody would allow that and that pitch was in the ball park. Third pitch was if I could get players to help me design a game, in an iterative process, I could make a really good game. A game good enough to cross over to the phone market, not in a huge way, but something. I call it keeping irons in fire. One might hit. Look at Boulder Dash, great game 30 years ago, great game today.
So looking at the project in total it was a money maker and I could continue making more VCS and crossovers. That got green lighted.
The mistake I made is players can't design games. I already knew this, but a small community with high interest in games, I thought that could be different.
Most companies I've worked for the marketing department would survey a boat load of people and ask them what they wanted in a product. You get back all these stereotypical responses. Women want less violence. Men want more action and better graphics. Marketing would give us the stats and say "make what they want". Doesn't work. People weren't saying what they wanted, they were giving opinions of things they've already seen. They don't know what's possible, it's not their job.
I can see now exactly how a thread on designing a game would go. MMOG!!! And 9 pages of flame war. Pointless. When I sat down to write Space Cavern in 4 weeks, blowing EPROMs, about 3 days of assembly language experience, and a hardware platform that we hardly knew anything about I'm pretty sure most people didn't a cart would fall of the line in 4 weeks. The Mindlink Product Manager was pretty sure nothing at all could be done in 1 or 2 weeks. Demon Attack couldn't be done. Pitfall couldn't be done. Pitfall II certainly wasn't possible.
If the concept for Tempest had been focus tested it would have never been made. After Tempest was out people could then say they wanted games "more like Tempest".
I think the axiom remains true. Product development doesn't really have a lot to do with what people currently want. Steve Jobs never surveyed users. He'd say something like "build what they're going to want, not what they want today."
I'd have just as much fun making a VCS game that sells 100 copies as I would a Windows app that sells thousands of copies. I love programming and creating products. If all things are even, once the user helping to design is removed, I rather write the Windows app and so would my manager. I know you'll understand.
Gave it a shot and it isn't going to work. Moving on time.
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Posted · Edited by DanOliver
I think I'm close to a plan...
I discussed two points with my wife today. Could a profit of $1000 per game be a reasonable business plan? I think it could. The concept is that would be a break even point of sorts. To make that work I'd have to do each game in one week. With tools and experience I showed on Telepathy one week is not unreasonable. Game design would be done while I worked on other projects, which is how I always did game design anyways. Doing a game in a week would allow me to do lots of games and other projects that pay better. That would allow me to maybe stumble into a cross over game. Something I could port to a larger market. That's where the profit would be. So you all would basically be supporting game research.
The other point I presented was from the Princess Rescue discussion on price. Put a really high price on games, like $75, and just let the crap hit the fan. The biggest benefit is me not having to think about price any more and just let the market decide as it should. The artist in me likes that price too because to sell game after game they would have to be good, really good. That would push me to do better and better games. Doing more crappy 1980 games is not very appealing at any price point. Been there, done that. I want to do games that you'll eat PB&J to play. If I can't do that I shouldn't be making games.
I think what will happen is I will do a mix and it will just depend on the game and let you all decide if a game is worth the price by either buying or not buying. Voicing strong opinions in forums is fine, but at some point the rubber has to hit the road.
I think I have enough info now. I still need to talk with Albert about the nuts and bolts. If I can fit games in with my other products sometime in the future I'd love to do some games.
I'm going to have to go kind of incommunicado for awhile and finish my current project now. Software development eats time and I have to focus.
It's been an intense few days. Been fun bring back forgotten memories. Been very interesting to learn about this whole retro game scene. Thank you all very much for all your help learning this stuff.
Blog
So I don't lose track I've set up a blog called VVHQ where I will post any news about any 2600 game development in my future. You can follow that blog to get the first word of me starting a game, demos, focus tests, progress, etc.
I sure look forward to hopefully being able to do something.