Lost Dragon

Nearly bought one, new, many years ago for £75. Wish i had now, not to use, just as an investment 😅

Autumn 1988: Virgin Mastertronic state they have sold APPROXIMATELY 40,000 Master Systems in the UK claim to be pulling in around £5 Million a year from the system. Nintendo state the previous year, Mattel spent £300,000 on a giant TV advertising campaign to market the NES in the UK and it FAILED to generate even 100,000 sales. As a result Nintendo spending £2.2 million on TV advertising and they had ditched Mattel and after initially planning to go with US GOLD offshoot, Go!, were going with their subsidiary, Nintendo Entertainment System International (NESI). Mastertronic were said to be pleases with sales via home shopping catalogs like KAY'S but Nintendo said that won't work for them, the machine had to be on display where it could be demonstrated. Just a brief look at the UK side, which took Nintendo by surprise, as the UK failed to embrace the NES, in the manner they expected. Might be of use as a foot note in the book?

The NUMBER seems consistent, 30 Million. But then you see some UK press breaking them down into areas outside the US, as i demonstrated earlier in the thread. NESI announced to UK press 30 Million NES machines sold, but tell them that's world Wide. UK Press, being skeptical by nature, look into these number and via their sources, say they closer to either 20 or 25 million. And then go further and break the numbers down into the following : 12 million in Japan, a claim they'd made, months before.. ".. It will be challenging Nintendo on their home ground, where they've sold at least 12 million machines". And even before that: ".. Although the Nintendo is alive and well, and living in the homes of 12 million Japanese and 5 Million American families" Source of the above Luther De Gale Ex-Konami boss. 7 million in USA, with predictions of that jumping to 10 to 12 million after the Xmas period. 45,000 in the UK 25,000 In Scandinavia And that's just one report, from one publication and one publisher at the time.

And here in lies the problem going off press publications. Pick a region, pick a publication and watch them give a totally different set of figures and if your lucky, see them put a disclaimer about figures coming from 'informed sources'. Actual sales figures for leading consoles have been (often heatedly) debated for years and this is why. There's not even a confirmed number being used between magazine publishers, let alone the mags themselves at the time. The 'best' you can sometimes take from them, is the names of people in charge of big high street stores, manufacturers P. R people etc. NESI chap i have already named. If your looking for Master System, you'd need to find Nick Alexander, M. D of Virgin Mastertronic. Virgin signed a 5 year, £100 Million deal with SEGA for Europesn distribution of over 1 million M. D and Master System machines and 7 million units of Software, after the deal with Ariolasoft fell through. That's just what the deal covered mind.

😍 Same thought here. Tantalizing thought, isn't it?

If he's serious about trying to get anything like credible data, he's going to need to do a lot of reaching out to the people involved at the time, if they are still with us. For the UK and Nintendo, people like: Mike Wensman, director of Nintendo UK subsidiary NESI. You can't go off press claims with likes of Atari saying they hope to sell another 250,000 2600 machines in the UK based on them apparently spending £600,000 on a TV advertising campaign for it.. Claims of over 3 million consoles already sold in UK since 1981 As for NESI :When they were claiming 30 million NES units sold worldwide, the figures were disputed and claimed to be closer to either 20 or 25 million. 12 million in Japan 7 million in USA, with predictions of that jumping to 10 to 12 million after the Xmas period. 45,000 in the UK 25,000 In Scandinavia Master System 45,000 in UK. You'd then see a disclaimer at bottom of the article.. #these figures are from informed sources, not the manufacturers themselves. You've also got them proclaiming Bob Armour, being busy finishing off 7800 Gauntlet for US GOLD, complete lie, it was never started.. And in same news piece saying whilst the 7800 wasn't particularly well marketed in the UK, there were around 2 million machines sold in the USA #article May 1990 Earlier in March 1990,Virgin Mastertronic said they were confident 200,000 Sega Master Systems had been sold in UK. Confident..not actual, audited figures, just confident.

Just slapped up Mike explaining he could of spent more time on the game, but projected sales were low. I was... OK with the controls, Jaguar pad never going to replace a mouse and i could only play Playstation XCOM and Syndicate Wars etc with a PS mouse. N64 Command And Conquer i found unplayable with that controller. It was the pointless zoom feature on Jaguar Syndicate that had me scratching my head. I made it to final mission on Jag Syndicate, never beat the damn thing mind.

Mike explaining the slowdown: Syndicate and theme park are both very simulation heavy games designed to run on a high end 486 (at the time) and even on PC suffer slow downs, without a major simplification of the game it was never going to run at a constant great framerate. With more time we could have made it run better, but I guess projected unit sales were so low it wasnt worth the business guys at Bullfrog have us spend more time and maybe make a loss on making the games.." Thought it might help with the podcast.

We've been here a good few times over the years. Hope's raised, then cruelly dashed over a new Turrican game: https://www.unseen64.net/2009/04/08/thornado-n64-prototype/ https://www.unseen64.net/2009/03/23/turrican-3d-pc-cancelled/ https://www.unseen64.net/2009/05/27/project-c-factor-5-ps3-cancelled/ https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/gtw64/turrican-3-v1/

I was wondering if they are going to add the levels etc from the SNES Beta of Super Turrican? https://www.unseen64.net/2012/05/14/super-turrican-beta-snes/

I'm a big Turrican fan, having played the original on C64, Turrican II on ST and Amiga and put a lot of time in on Mega Turrican, but those prices made me wince. Not escaped media attention either.. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-08-28-turrican-returns-with-a-set-of-pricey-30th-anniversary-anthologies

You put yourself through a lot making these. Zool Strider II Narc Total Carnage. Now this 😂

People on this site have a wealth of advice experience and material that can be an asset to any inspiring writers. Calling those who have a proven track record in the field of writing games related books, 'dense" is not going to help your cause. You might want to look into some of the work Bill has done, before going any further. Bill Loguidice is a Founder and Managing Director for Armchair Arcade and fullSTEAMahead365, as well as a critically acclaimed technology author and journalist. He is also the co-founder of creative services firm, Armchair Creative Services, and a noted videogame and computer historian and subject matter expert. Bill is the author of the following major books: Fortnite For Dummies (2019, Wiley), Atari Flashback: The Essential Companion (2017, Prima Games), My Xbox One (2014, Que Publishing), Vintage Game Consoles: An Inside Look at Apple, Atari, Commodore, Nintendo, and the Greatest Gaming Platforms of All Time (2014, Focal Press/Taylor & Francis Group), CoCo: The Colorful History of Tandy’s Underdog Computer (2013, CRC Press/Taylor & Francis Group), My PlayStation Vita (2012, Que Publishing), My Xbox: Xbox 360, Kinect, and Xbox LIVE (2012, Que Publishing), Motorola ATRIX For Dummies (2011, Wiley), Wii Fitness For Dummies (2010, Wiley; making use of his AFTA personal training certification), and Vintage Games: An Insider Look at the History of Grand Theft Auto, Super Mario and the Most Influential Games of All Time (2009, Focal Press; which received an Italian translation). Bill was also a writer and producer on the 2015 feature film documentary on the history of videogames entitled, Gameplay: The Story of the Videogame Revolution, and is hard at work on other exciting books, articles, and creative projects. This has turned into something i would expect to see on Dragon's Den. You've come here with an interesting pitch, asking for help and now your loosing Dragon's... I'm out.

Only ever dabbled with the NES, so listed those that sprang to mind and MS ones were off top of my head, but thought i would highlight a few to raise awareness to the thread creator just how far behind the 7800 was in this regard. 😊 Think I'm going to bow out now, advice and pointers have been suggested on what to look for.

This is the point i am making. UK Press is too vague, Atari UK folk if you can find them, aren't able to give figures, let alone independently verified ones. Many have tried over the years to try and get a credible figure on system sales. Often end up reporting speculated sales as fact, as it's so difficult to atain actual, credible numbers for lifetime sales on a global scale.

Looking at just the Master System, computer ports... Things like.. Alien 3 Back To The Future II and III Cal Games Chuck Rock I and II James Pond II Lemmings Populous Indy Jones:Action Game Speedball and Speedball Ii Spy Vs Spy Wolfchild World Games W. C. leaderboard Xenon Ii NES had.. Defender Of The Crown Supremacy/Overlord. 7800 was positively starved by comparison.

For initial NES sales in UK, you'd need to see if Ron Newbold of Mattel UK is still with us.. I last saw him quoted in 1986. There are press claims like.. An amazing 25 million 2600s have been sold to date, one million alone in 1985, 100,000 of which CAME into the UK Source John Cook, PCW Dec'86 This is what you can expect from UK press and its not that helpful.

This quote from Raze magazine at the time highlights another issue you'll find with Atari and UK press: Atari often quotes a Mintel report that states the 7800, together with it's older brother, the 2600 accounts for around 50% of the UK Console Market'. As far as i am aware, nobody has ever found a copy of said report and it's a pretty meaningless claim as it doesn't give a specific account of even how much of that supposed 50% market share the 7800 accounted for. Atari loved to be in the headlines, loathed to give specifics.

To save you some time, here's Darryl Still (Atari UK P. R) Q+A: 108 Stars There are claims that at one point the Lynx outsold Game Gear in the UK. Is that true? Darryl I probably made those claims….not sure there was much foundation in fact, but at our peak, we would have been close I’d imagine. 108 Stars Did the Atari 7800 sell well in Europe? Darryl It was well stocked by European retail. It never got the consumer traction that the 2600 did, but I remember we used to do a lot of units mail order through the catalogues and in the less affluent areas. Things to note. 1.He admits there might not of been much foundation in claims he made to Press at the time regarding Lynx outselling the Game Gear. 2.In true Atari P. R Speak, he answers a question without giving any actual numbers. These are the issues your going to face going off press claims and it's why the UK badly needed an independent audit body. If you present the figures with the context they couldn't be independently verified, you've covered yourself and hopefully people will respect your honesty.

Exactly, it was, along with the planned launch software, showcased in the UK and the press were told it was to replace the now cancelled release of the 5200,which it itself was to replace the aging 2600, then Bob Gleadow reports plans changed, UK getting the XE GS, 7800 limps out, leaving Atari in the bizzare situation of having the 2600-XEGS and 7800 all competing for the same market share here in the UK.

If your looking for Global figures on both the 7800 and Master System in the UK, i could pass on some claims from various press back in the day, but i would direct you to a comment a made in another old thread i necrobumped the other day: There was a call for the UK Games industry to dig deep and pay for proper, independent market research and there to be an independent audit body, which could monitor distribution numbers and validate actual sales figures. People were having to take manufacturing claims on good faith. Since this never came about, any figures issued to the press by Sega and Atari would have to be presented in the context they were not independently verified.

Wow. Kudos for the back story. That would exolain an awful lot.

I'm ok with them most of the time, but Halo 4? Nahhh And Resident Evil 4,come on Capcom, why not just go the whole hog, have a klaxon start blaring and a voice shout YOU ARE PLAYING A VIDEO GAME, to truly break the immersion and be done with it?.

Your a legend. Found it:i DId you hear anyone say "Goodbye"? ================================== by Donald A. Thomas, Jr. (10/4/96) It's odd to imagine an institution, which was as big and as powerful as Atari once was, to have been shut down in recent days. The real amazement for me is that it was all accomplished without a measurable flinch from within or outside the gaming industry. I can understand that gamers wanted to push Pong out the door early in the timeline. I can appreciate that the classics such as Missile Command and Asteroids do not push 32-bit and 64-bit systems to any technological limits. I know all these things intellectually, but the heart cannot face the truth that the world and the corporate machine known as Atari could not find an amicable way to coexist. On Tuesday, July 30, 1996, Atari Corporation took each and every share of it's company (ATC), wrapped them all in a tight bundle and presented them to JTS Corporation; a maker and distributor of hard disk drives. On Wednesday, the shares were traded under the symbol of JTS. Within a few weeks, the remaining staff of Atari that were not dismissed or did not resign, moved to JTS' headquarters in San Jose, California. The three people were assigned to different areas of the building and all that really remains of the Atari namesake is a Santa Clara warehouse full of unsold Jaguar and Lynx products. It was only as long ago as mid '95 that Atari executives and staff believed things were finally taking a better turn. Wal*Mart had agreed to place Jaguar game systems in 400 of their Superstores across the country. Largely based on this promise of new hope and the opportunities that open when such deals are made, Atari invested heavily in the product and mechanisms required to serve the Wal*Mart chain. But the philosophical beliefs of the Atari decision makers that great products never need advertising or promotions, put the Wal*Mart deal straight into a tailspin. With money tied up in the product on shelves as well as the costs to distribute them to get there, not much was left to saturate any marketplace with advertising. While parents rushed into stores to get their kids Saturns or PlayStations, the few that picked up the Jaguar were chastised by disappointed children on Christmas day. In an effort to salvage the pending Wal*Mart situation, desperate attempts to run infomercials across the country were activated. The programs were professionally produced by experts in the infomercial industry and designed to permit Atari to run slightly different offers in different markets. In spite of the relatively low cost of running infomercials, the cost to produce them and support them is very high. The results were disappointing. Of the few thousand people who actually placed orders, many of them returned their purchases after the Holidays. The kids wanted what they saw on TV during the day! They wanted what their friends had! They wanted what the magazines were raving about! In early 1996, Wal*Mart began returning all remaining inventory of Jaguar products. After reversing an "advertising allowance" Atari was obligated to accept, the net benefit Atari realized was an overflowing warehouse of inventory in semi-crushed boxes and with firmly affixed price and security tags. Unable to find a retailer willing to help distribute the numbers required to stay afloat, Atari virtually discontinued operations and traded any remaining cash to JTS in exchange for a graceful way to exit the industry's back door. Now that JTS has "absorbed" Atari, it really doesn't know what to do with the bulk of machines Atari hoped to sell. It's difficult to liquidate them. Even at liquidation prices, consumers expect a minimal level of support which JTS has no means to offer. The hundreds of calls they receive from consumers that track them down each week are answered to the best ability of one person. Inquiries with regard to licensing Atari classic favorites for other applications such as handheld games are handled by Mr. John Skruch who was with Atari for over 13 years. In spite of Nintendo's claim that their newest game system is the first 64-bit game system on the market, Atari Corporation actually introduced the first 64-bit system just before Christmas in 1993. Since Atari couldn't afford to launch the system nationwide, the system was introduced in the New York and San Francisco markets first. Beating the 32-bit systems to the punch (Saturn/PlayStation), Atari enjoyed moderate success with the Jaguar system and managed to lure shallow promises from third-party companies to support the system. Unfortunately, programmers grossly underestimated the time required to develop 64-bit games. The jump from 8-bit and 16-bit was wider than anticipated. In addition, Atari was already spread thin monetarily, but were required to finance almost every title that was in development. After the initial launch, it took Atari almost a year before an assortment of games began to hit store shelves. Even then, having missed the '94 Holiday Season, many of the planned titles were de-accelerated to minimize problems caused by rushing things too fast. Consumers were not happy and retailers were equally dismayed. The few ads that Atari was able to place in magazines were often stating incorrect release dates because that information changed almost every day although magazines deadline their issues up to 120 days in advance. It was in 1983 that Warner Communications handed Jack Tramiel the reins of Atari. By this time, Atari was often categorized as a household name, but few households wanted to spend much money on new software and the systems were lasting forever. No one needed to buy new ones. That, combined with Warner's obscene spending, amounted to a *daily loss* of over $2 million. Atari was physically spread all over the Silicon Valley with personnel and equipment in literally 80 separate buildings; not considering international offices and manufacturing facilities. Mr. Tramiel took only the home consumer branch of Atari and forced Warner to deal with the arcade division separately. Within a few years, Jack took the company public, introduced an innovative new line of affordable 16-bit computers and released the 7800 video game system. To accomplish these miracles for Atari, Jack implemented his "business is war" policies. While people who publicly quoted his statement often felt that policy meant being extremely aggressive in the marketplace, the meaning actually had closer ties to Tramiel's experience as a concentration camp survivor. Of the 80 buildings in Sunnyvale, Santa Clara and Milpitas, almost every one of them were amputated from Atari's body of liabilities. The people, the work, the heritage, the history were fired or liquidated. Those who survived were unsympathetically required to fill in the gaps and while most tried, few actually found a way to be successfully do what a dozen people before them did. Atop the mountain, Jack pressed with an iron thumb. All Fed/Ex mailings were required to be pre-approved by one of a handful of people. "Unsigned" purchase orders went unpaid regardless of the urgencies that inspired their creation. Employees found themselves spending valuable time trying to find ways around the system to accomplish their jobs. Many of them lost their jobs for bending the rules or never finding a way to make things work. As horrible as it all sounds, it actually was the only way to protect Atari as a company and give it a chance to survive, as it did and did very well. Jack's introduction of the 16-bit computer was initially hearty in the United States but it went extremely well in Europe. Europeans were not accustomed to "affordable" technology and although the Atari computers were not IBM compatible, it didn't matter because people could afford them. Jacks' private laugh was that the computers were sold at prices much higher in Europe than Americans were willing to pay. As a result, most of the machines made were being shipped to European destinations to capture the higher margin. This enraged the people in the United States that had been Atari loyalists. While waiting months for stores to take delivery domestically, international magazines were touting ample supplies. Those in the know within the U.S. became dismayed. The remainder never knew Atari was slowly abandoning the value of Atari's name recognition as it became easier and easier to forget, some assuming Atari had long filed for bankruptcy. On a technical level, Atari 16-bit computers were designed beyond their time. For less than $1,000, consumers could enjoy "multimedia" before the phrase was ever really widely used. The icon-based working environment proceeded Windows popularity although the essential attributes of the two environments were very similar. MIDI was built-in and became an instant hit in the high-end music industry. Tasks were activated and manipulated with a mouse and the system accepted industry standard peripherals such as printers, modems and diskettes. With all the genius that went into the technology of the machines, very little of equivalent genius went into the promoting and marketing the machines. Mr. Tramiel was the founder of Commodore Business Machines. When he introduced the PET computer in 1977, Jack discovered he didn't have to call a single publication. Instead they all flocked to his door demanding an opportunity to see the product. News magazines. Science Journals. Business newsletters. Newspaper reporters. They were all there with microphone, camera and pen in hand. And they kept coming back. Adding a switch, announcing a new 4K application or signing a new retailer were all big stories the press wanted to handle. Today, a new video game announcement may generate a request from any of the dozens of gaming magazines for a press release, but a lot of costly work has to be done to assure fair or better coverage. Editorial people are literally swamped with technical news. Samples are mailed regularly to their attention. Faxes fly in through the phone lines and e-mail jams up their hard drives. It takes a lot to grab their attention. While Atari retained hopes to be successful with the Jaguar, Atari's marketing people were fighting established standards in the industry with severe handicaps. Since cartridges (the Jaguar was/is primarily a cartridge-based system) were so expensive, editorial people were required to return them before new ones would be sent. Editorial people like to assign review projects. So finding cartridges they sent out was not always easy to do. Additionally, reviewers often love their work because they get to keep what they write about. Regardless, the few magazines willing to cover Atari products were more often turned away because of a lack of programmable cartridges or any number of other indecisive barriers. In-store signs and posters were sometimes created, but many retail chains charge premiums to manufacturers that want to display them. Some direct mail campaigns were implemented, but Atari often could not afford to keep those things being advertised on schedule. Therefore, the advertisements were published and distributed, but the product was not available. Clearly, Jack's experience with the world beating a path to the door of a company making a better mousetrap no longer applied. The world had revolved a few times beneath him and he never noticed. The tactics used to successfully sell Commodore computers were simply antiquated notions from the past. Meanwhile, Sony launches the PlayStation with over $500 million in marketing funds. Today, the PlayStation is considered the most successful next-generation gaming machine throughout the world. Sony bought the market. Tramiel's Atari never learned how to do that. Actually, they never could afford it anyway. After the 1990's got underway, Europe as well as the rest of the world, discovered that IBM-compatible computers were becoming more powerful and more affordable. The world always did want computers at home just like in the office and companies like Dell and Gateway exemplified the industry's trend toward home-based office computers. As a result, companies like Commodore, Atari and Next couldn't compete any longer. While the dedicated user base of each of them felt abandoned by these companies having to leave the computer market, the inevitable prevailed. Commodore jumped ship, Next changed business goals completely and Atari invested what they had left in the Jaguar game system. Even today, Apple is kicking and screaming. As good as Apple was at creating a huge niche for themselves, they focused more heavily on education. When kids grow up and get jobs, they want business machines. IBM was always the business standard. When one examines the history of Atari, an appreciation can grow for how many businesses and people were a part of the game over the years. Chuck E. Cheese Pizza was started by Atari's founder, Mr. Nolan Bushnell. Apple Computer was born in a garage by ex-Atari employees. Activision was founded by Ace Atari programmers. The list goes on and on. But for some pathetic reason Atari's final days came and went with no tribute, no fanfare and no dignified farewells. Why? Where did all the talent go? Where are all the archives? Where are the vaults? Where are the unpublished games and where are the originals of those that were? Why has no company stepped forward to adopt the remaining attributes Atari has to offer? Where are the creditors? What has happened to all the properties and sites? Where are the databases, warranty cards, promotional items, notes on meetings, unanswered mail? Who owns P.O. Box 61657? Who goes to work in Atari's old offices? Where do consumers have their systems fixed? Who is publishing new games? Who still sells Atari products? Why are there still a lot of people talking about Atari on-line? I'm an ex-Atari employee and proud to have been. I'm still an Atari devotee and proud to be. To me, these are questions which all deserve an answer, but who will ask them? The best people to ask these questions are those who have exposure to the public. If you believe Atari left us without saying goodbye, contact Dateline at [email protected] If you REALLY believe, then send this article to 10 of your friends in e-mail. AND if YOU REALLY, REALLY believe, mail a few to newspapers or other news programs. A letter in your own words would be great! I'd spend money for a thorough retrospect on Atari. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't it at least be nice to say "Goodbye"? --Don Thomas

I'd wager you were right. Had a brief look online and found a few comments from Bob, but nothing that rang with what i remembered. Spent last few months deleting what I had stored on Jaguar, off my systems. Don Thomas sounds promising.