Lost Dragon

Back on actual topic of The Panther (and I will duplicate this comment in the actual Panther thread).. In the look at Lynx Rolling Thunder section in Frank Gasking's GTW book, Chuck Ernst briefly talks about spending 3 months getting up to speed on the Panther, doing debugging. Atari gave him a development kit, essentially a 7800 with more Ram and slightly faster CPU, Chuck said Panther was supposed to be Atari's next Bleeding Edge console, but it was a mess and pretty much didn't do anything it was supposed to do. Atari' apparently said "we're going to get our asses kicked by the Super Nintendo, it has scaling and other crazy technology" Chuck also talks of how the coin-op Atari gave them for Lynx Rolling Thunder only had 8 levels, not 10,as it was an early prototype and the chip reader they needed to rip artwork directly from the arcade Roms was broken and Atari refused to pay the $1,200 to replace it, feeling it was cheaper to have an artist recreate it by hand. Thanks go to Frank for yet more Panther insights.

Over the years on here i have mentioned developers not being impressed by the 2D capabilities of the 3DO,with Rebecca Heineman of Interplay And Mark Johnson of Argonaut being quoted. Well it seems Argonaut project leader, Ian Crowther, wasn't impressed by the hardware full stop. He said it was a pity about the 3DO hardware, it was little more than a wonderful looking polygon engine, that had been attached to a processor so crippled, it couldn't keep up.

After listening to an interview with Michael Katz and hearing his thoughts on Jack Tramiel, i spent some time listening to R. J Mical this afternoon, but there was only talk of sitting across the table from Jack, hearing of Jack's reputation. If I'm blunt, i wasn't that impressed by R. J as a speaker. He spoke with passion and at length, but the story of how Morse came up with the concept of the Handy seemed off and he gave a very simplistic account of the financial issues that drove Epyx under, Stephen Landrums account was far more open and made clear the deal with Atari was just one of many factors involved.

Phone autocorrect, yep 1985. Good spot,appreciated.

As for subject of the ST getting games support: June 1995 sees Atari UK Sales and Marketing Manager, Rob Harding, saying that over 100 UK software houses were now ST developers and Atari had sold around one third of it's 520 ST machines to businesses software development companies, another third to companies specialising in utilities and intergrated packages and the remaining third to entertainment software houses. Somewhat surprising comments as Harding had also been quoted as saying: "We are definitely moving away from games software to more serious applications-games is almost a dirty word at Atari now". It's the mixed messages from Atari over the years that makes it such an issue to follow their stances.

A few other UK historical points. 1.The original plan for Sega with the Master System was for Ariolasoft to distribute it here and Sega would maintain strict control over software prices and who obtained a licence to make games for it, Ariolasoft aiming for an Xmas 1984 release. 2.Atari UK marketing support manager, Ronald Whitehouse, was keen to point out Atari UK would be taking a completely different approach, they wanted 7800 software development to mirror that of games software for their home micros, no licence, no publisher to veto products. The aim being to have 7800 games developed faster and sold cheaper than those on the Sega system.

I'm impressed M. S have played Sony at their own hand and waited till the last moment to reveal pricing for their new hardware and the entry level machine coming in far lower than expected. Rumours seem to suggest it's forcing Sony to rethink the pricing of it's Playstation 5 models, but the small HDD and limited Ram of the entry level Xbox aren't to my liking. But there still hasn't been a WOW factor game annouced on either platform for myself to justify moving from my Playstation 4 anytime soon.

So, with the likes of Rob Nicholson, Guildo H. and Jeff Minter having given their thoughts on how the Panther shaped up next to the existing 16-bit systems and Atari's claimed technical specifications, what is this thread now actually about?. The Tramiel family and their handling of previous attempts to capture the lions share of the console market?. If it is.. and the reasoning for the XEGS being introduced are to be covered, it should be made clear the reasoning differed on both sides of the Atlantic. As i said before, Bob Gleadow Atari UK M. D convinced Atari the XEGS, not the 7800 was (initially) the right system to replace the aging 2600 here in THE UK, as publishers needed the ability to put games out on cassette and disk. The reasoning in the USA: We come again to that perpetual question: is Atari intent on killing the 8-bits? One way to answer that would be to give you a tour of our warehouse. If you could see the number of 8-bit computers and software in inventory, you'd know we are highly motivated to keep the line going. Regarding the new XE Game System, which on the first glance is a slap in the face to those who know how powerful the 8-bitters are -- this system is purely a strategic move on our part. In order to keep the 8-bit line going, we must do two things: 1. Get the computers available in more stores, and 2. Get new software developed for them. Software is not being developed by and large because of problem #1. So which stores do we go to? The mass merchants, who sold the bulk of the hundreds of thousands (not, unfortunately, millions) of Atari 8-bit computers out there, are currently retreating from the computer business. K-Mart carries NO computers. Ditto for Montgomery Wards. And for J.C. Penney's. On the other hand, these same stores are doing a fabulous business in game systems like Nintendo, Sega, and, of course, Atari. The solution, from a business point of view, was to develop a product that would be appealing to the mass merchants (and also to the public which buys there), one that also accomplishes the corporate objective of revitalizing the 8-bit line. So what we have with the XE Game System is essentially a 65XE in disguise. Internally it contains 64K of RAM, the standard OS and BASIC in ROM, two joystick ports, SIO port, etc. It is completely compatible with the current 8-bit line, including software. Physically it is more appealing to those who don't want a computer but who do want to play games. The main console simply has the 4 console keys from the XE (Start, Select, Option, and Reset), plus the cartridge port and connectors. The keyboard is a separate unit which plugs into the console. When someone buys the XE Game System, they get the complete package -- console, keyboard, light gun, and 3 programs (including a new version of Sublogic's Flight Simulator including scenery, all on a single cartridge). We expect stores to do a great business in these. We'll make available the current library of cartridge software, plus we're converting some disk programs into cartridge format for this system. As time goes by, we expect to see dramatic increases in sales for 8-bit software -- hopefully, this will also include practical applications as well as games. This should in turn encourage developers to create new titles for the 8-bits. Once things get moving again in the mass merchants, the current supply of 8-bit computers should also get moving through the dealers -- after all, they make a better value than the game systems, and take up less space. So, those few of you out there who are looking at Atari management as the evil group who are plotting to quash the 8-bit line, you have it all wrong. We're trying hard to keep things moving forward. Without the distribution and the software, no amount of advertising and new hardware development could work. The XE Game System is our best hope to keep things moving. -- --->Neil Harris, Director of Marketing Communications, Atari Corporation The distinction between the 2 was sadly never made clear in the last historical article about it in Retrogamer magazine i read, as the writer and advisors seemed unaware Atari had announced then canned the 5200 for a UK release and had shown the 7800 at London, then Gleadow announced an explained the change of plans.

Bonus content continues to be added to the main GTW site: https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/2020/09/s-u-b/ https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/2020/09/turrican-3/ https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/2020/09/various-unreleased-amiga-titles/ https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/2020/09/dreamland-chronicles-freedom-ridge/

Atari UK were hoping for a major console revival here in the UK, during the last quarter of 1997,due to the age of prospective buyers getting younger and the sub-£100 hardware market hadn't been properly catered for in 1985 and 1986. They saw the 2600 Jr and XEGS as the ideal platform for the under 10 age group.

I think Jack was watching the Commodore CDTV closely to see how it fared. Bob Gleadow did accept it's potential for massive games.

As for Atari doing everything right in the UK from a games perspective... 😂 When Atari International UK were asked why games on the Atarisoft label were so expensive, Pole Position on Cassette for the BBC and 48K ZX Spectrum, £14.99, Donkey King Jr on Spectrum at same price, Ms Pac-Man on BBC and Electron at £12.99, they replied there would be no compromise for the sake of cost. The failure to realise both hardware and software was priced far too high for the UK market, cost them dear.

@zzip At a time Jack Tramiel was talking tough about Atari's plans for the CD ST and ST CD Drive. over here in the UK, Bob Gleadow was painting it in a very different and far colder light. He felt such systems were only of use to the database market. Atari and to be fair, Commodore UK, often found themselves lumbured with directives and hardware from the US arm. Commodore UK for example, knew the CDTV was far too expensive and the marketing angle being used was the wrong one, but had to stick to the rigid policies imposed on them and it bombed. This is the first interview with Michael Katz i have listened in on and from 48 mins in, he talks of Jack Tramiel main motivation with the 7800 was seeing it as a revenue base/cash source, with which to fund the ST. Jack had no interest in the video games market.

Regarding Atari and it's approach to treating the ST as a Games Machine in the early years.. At the start of 1986,Rob Harding, Atari UK Sales and Marketing Manager said Atari's determination was for the ST to have software covering all areas of the market, from games and entertainment through to serious business and vertical applications. Out of around 140 titles then available for the ST, 51 were classed as entertainment, the balance remaining included 14 accounting packages, 10 word processors, 3 spreadsheets, 9 databases, 6 graphics packages, 18 programming languages and 11 utilities. And we shouldn't forget the Sinclair QL origins of some early ST titles, The Pawn, Brataccas, formly Bandersnatch etc. Silica marketed the 520ST in a direct VS comparison with the Apple Mac and Apricot F1e systems. Under Max Bambridge, Atari UK were targetting the 1.2 million shopkeepers of the UK and hoping to persuade them the ST was the ideal business computer for them, due to it's affordable price. By the summer of 1987,Atari were placing 2 page magazine adverts, with the first page showcasing it as a Games system (Gauntlet, Tai Pan, Metrocross, Arkanoid, Star Raiders and Flight Sim II being shown) second page it's serious application software (1st word plus, superbase personal, Fleet Street Publisher and VIP GEM). Slogan : ATARI 520 ST Works Hard Plays Hard. They were presenting it as the computer to suit all needs.

@ColecoKing Bob Gleadow described the XEGS as being a machine that was needed here in the UK, more than the 7800,as any new console system needed to cater for UK software houses and that meant putting games out on cassette and disk. Cartridge manufacturering was a huge investment and could only be justified by the platform having a massive installed user base. I will use parts of an old post I made on the subject some years ago.. The 2600 at this time (Oct/Nov'87) was retailing for £50 and had 3 price groups for it's games (£6.99, £9.99 and £12.99 with likes of Pacman Jr and Solaris at the highest group, Stargate, Joust, Moon Patrol etc in mid-range and Defender, Space Invaders etc at lowest end). These are the smessages that Atari UK put out in April 1987:Ronald Whitehouse, manager of marketing and software: 'We need and are actively looking for, more cartridge based software for the 65XE.The response has been excellent'. May 87 saw saying that he was reciving assurances from UK software houses that there would be plenty of software for the A8 range, espically the 65XE games machine... Which were completely false statements and contradicted by statements from likes of Ocean Software and US GOLD. Pricing of the 65XE was'nt exactly genius either, given that little under a year before, you could buy a brand new 800 and disk drive for less than the cost of a 65XE disk drive and the classified adverts were usually full of people selling A8 computers with stacks of games as they were looking to upgrade to say the ST or pick up a Master system ,C64 or something that had new, exciting games coming out, (something the A8 range and 65XE lacked).. Sam Tramiel singled out the 65XE as a flagship product in it's games machine range at an '87 Hanover show, saying it's introduction would drive the company's growth in 1987.

The ST Console was literally going to be the existing, entry level ST hardware in a console case, hence the budget price tag, younger gamer market, there were as far as i am aware, no plans to enhance the specifications to include the Blitter. Adding the Blitter increases the cost of manufacturing the hardware and when your just looking at converting existing ST software to it on cartridge, your not looking for coders to rewrite routines to take advantage of it.

Same here considering titles like Chronicles Of Cute were moved to the ST from the 7800 and renamed as Chronicles Of Omega and released in 1990.

Considering Atari UK were hoping the cream of ST coders would convert software to the ST Console, there wasn't a huge amount of love from them for the ST Blitter. Wayne Smithson (Blood Money) described it as a complete waste of time and space, no barrel shifting equating to don't bother using it Jez San, Argonaut not impressed either.

The ST Console was just Rob Zybdel trying to convince Atari they could put the ST hardware into a console style case, get it out here in the UK for around £100 and have a range of old arcade games out on it at budget price.. £25,which would of been cheaper than Master System and NES titles. Bear in mind rumours abounded Ariolasoft pulled out of the Sega Master System distribution deal here in the UK as they were unhappy with the prices Sega wanted to charge for 8-bit software. Atari UK were hoping the cream of existing arcade conversions and arcade style games already on the ST converted to it. Atari UK admitted it was aimed at the younger users market, the ST was still the Golden Calf and the console was not intended to take sales away from the ST computer range. Atari UK MD Bob Gleadow said that when he joined Atari UK in October 1986,the original plan to establish the ST as a small business machine was looking flawed, so Atari needed a new ethos on which to market it, so they pitched it as in all-in-one home computer, rather than a games machine. Atari redefined the ST again, under Gleadow, in the UK in late 1991 as being seriously the better computer, with Atari putting strong emphasis on the fact it was aiming the hardware at the serious user. You can find Sam Tramiel pushing the ST as a serious users machine to the press in Summer of 1990, boasting a high resolution monochrome mode and more business applications over the Amiga. He also stated Atari had to break Nintendo's monopoly on games software, before Atari could get good, brand name software for the 7800 and 2600 and Atari would go one-on-one with Nintendo with next generation machines, Lynx and Panther. Atari would happily redefine the ST from a marketing perspective, when sales started to flag, to try and capture market share where they thought it could do well in.

I'd suggest people talk to Jon Dean, Rob Katz and others from Atari UK (shame most of the Les Player RIP interview is now lost) and ask them about how much focus the Tramiel family put on games for the A8 and ST... Jon Joined Atari in 1985 and pretty much left 12 months later because by that time Atari were moving away from games, in order to focus on home computers... Find a few coders who tried to work with Atari during the Atarisoft era, see if their experiences were similar to those of Nick Pelling : far as Atari goes, I tried to work with them with Joust on the BBC Micro but it turned out really badly, and the less said the better. Again, others may have kind words to say about Atari, but you won’t find any here. Ask Jeff Minter what it was like working with Atari under the ARC label and how Atari responded to his offer of converting Defender II to the Lynx or ask Rob Nicholson how the Tramiel's responded to idea of having Elite converted to the Lynx.. Audiogenic Peter Calver: When it came to the Jaguar - which was of great interest - it was Atari who rejected us, because they wanted blockbuster games. You'll get a much better concept of the Tramiel plans for the hardware, the 'ease' of getting games software, publisher apathy etc. Leonard Tramiel had little idea of which European developers were developing software for the Panther for a start.

Vindicators. There were Atari Corp documents that were used as starting point for interviews etc. I've heard nothing new on Lynx Metal Mutant in years 😭

The full story is detailed in the GTW book.. https://www.bitmapbooks.co.uk/products/the-games-that-werent But contrary to popular belief, David Kurensky DID NOT hand over his Lynx Vindicators code nor Lynx development kit, to Atari when Vindicators was pulled, he passed them onto Chuck Ernst,along with printouts of the arcade source code. Currently the development machines won't boot 😭, so work would be needed to recover anything. As for the demo etc .. David is sure press shots were from his version of the game, not mock-ups.

The full story is detailed in the GTW book.. https://www.bitmapbooks.co.uk/products/the-games-that-werent But contrary to popular belief, David Kurensky DID NOT hand over his Lynx Vindicators code nor Lynx development kit, to Atari when Vindicators was pulled, he passed them onto Chuck Ernst,along with printouts of the arcade source code. Currently the development machines won't boot 😭, so work would be needed to recover anything.

I've never had any direct involvement with the 7800. My memories of it from the period were Atari unveiling it at a London show, hardware and expected launch titles, pricing etc. Then Atari UK Boss Bob Gleadow telling press why Atari UK instead were going with the XE GS system for the UK. Then it gets a one-off feature in C+VG magazine, Son Of VCS and suddenly Atari UK have 3 8-bit cartridge based consoles on sale. As the articles in Retrogamer magazine are paid-for works, i expect a certain level of accuracy, especially when covering the overseas markets. But i gave up buying magazines years ago, the dedicated Retro books coming out often have far more time spent on research and writing, plus the luxury of more pages available to cover subjects and they offer far greater VFM for my tastes.

It's been a lifetime ambition project from Frank and years of work, i can still remember him, ahem casually asking what was known about systems like The Panther, games like ST Chaplin, Playstation Water World, 7800 Electrocop etc years ago and it was many months before he said he was doing a book 😊 I remember twisting his arm to reveal what Jaguar project he was covering and when he said Deathwatch, I was a little cynical, as Luca on Unseen64 had covered it pretty well, Frank, in his traditional humble manner, just replied he was quietly confident he had some new info and screens. With his knowledge, writing ability and the exceptionally high production standards of Bitmap Books, he's something here to be very, very proud of. He's put in a phenomenal amount of work and taking something like Chaplin, you can see the amount of leads he followed up,he presents information very honestly. As soon as I flicked through and saw the Atari coin op coverage and Green Lantern feature, I knew this was something special.