andym00

Well, that's me wiping tea off my keyboard this morning.. I never realised it was the case that the pesky little buggers can go anywhere on the actual screen.. So more work, masking the players at the screen edges.. Oops

The 1993 Commodore Annual Report that surfaced on the internet some years back gave these figures: 17M C64, 4.5M C128, 2.5M Vic20.. I'm stuffed if I can find the thing now though..

Good to see I was wrong.. Didn't expect much else really..

Here you, go.. I forgot Rybags was also master of this gubbins http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/147037-color-in-antic-e/page__p__1790850entry1790850

Patience, grasshoppa... Why patience? you know so much, you tell me then I can get on with my life I'm only hazarding a rough guess here, but if I remember right it's how player (and missle) bit patterns interact with the graphics data on the bus.. There's some weird logical operations going on with the playfield colours and the Player/Missle data.. Badoom tish.. Loadsa colours.. This is how they can achieve their mystical 23 (questionably useful) 23 colours per line.. There are other threads about this on AA, but I can't remember where (probably the 5200 programming forum), but Atariski seems to made himself the high priest on this mode, so I'd best wait for him and his cut'n'pasted basic program Anyway, now I've spoken up since you weren't getting any answer, I'll no doubt get clobbered for getting it wrong

Not fair, you know Atari 8bits always win when it comes to green screens There's definitely was something on the pages of those programming manuals that led to a strange penchant for green, and to misquote De La Soul 'Green is the magic colour' Edit: Can't believe I missed out this little green fella either

Oh my, I didn't say anything wrong. In the same way I didn't mention that the Atari can join two 8 bit timers to a 16 bit timer I also didn't mention that on C64 you can join two 16 bit timers to a 32 bit timer. It's still wrong because it implies that A8 is limited to 8-bit divisors. Have you even programmed a 32-bit divisor on the C64 or just reading off some spec? Here's an example for you.. Using the timers, in '32bit' mode, where one timer counts the underflow of a second.. In this case being used to generate addresses of samples to be played at whatever rates you want, and takes care of looping and length for you too All you do is pull out the timer values, add the base page of your sample, and fetch and play lda #0 sta $dc0e ; Load the sample length into the counter.. lda Sound_Len_Lo,y sta $dc06 lda Sound_Len_Hi,y sta $dc07 ; Set Timer B to count Timer A underflows.. lda #01010001 <<< Should be %, but the board software seems a bit mad.. sta $dc0f ; Set Timer A to run, continously and force load.. lda #00010001 <<< And here too... sta $dc0e You'd also want to set up your base timer rate, since this is what Timer B counts underflows of, in this case, your desired sample replay rate.. Though usually this would come from your audio code.. ; Timer A rate.. lda #<((63 * 1) - 1) sta $dc04 lda #>((63 * 1) - 1) sta $dd05 But with the one-shot, or continous modes, you have your looping taken care of, plus a nice flag when the samples finished Plus we have 2 timers to use for address 'generation'.. In your apparent A8 Timers are better world.. Using this mode, and setting Timer A to be 63 (or 65 cycles if in NTSC land), you can then just load a relative scanline value into Timer B, since Timer A is always counting scanlines for you.. So if I was using CIA IRQs to do pretend rasters I'd just do: lda #RasterLine_Delta sta $dc06 So your argument there fails as well.. And please, I beg you, quote properly, and use the code tags.. I skip half your posts because I can't figure out who the hell said what when you 'quote'.. Oh, maybe I've just found out why.. Trying to post that code with the correct #%xxxxxx values, the board changes #00010001 to #10001 for some reason.. Lol it won't post this right either will it edit: Why does the board mess up completely with binary values ???

Don't be a numpty, we all know (from Gauntlet) that the A8 has a far better green palette than the 64.. edit: crap, just realised i've posted answers to the wrong posts.. But the points the same, just don't get grumpy with me Rockford because you think I side with the atarians

Look, much as I'm on your 'side' those games (space harrier, outrun, afterburner( |:, power drift) did run smoothly, just played like shite and (given the games we're talking about) looked proper shite as well.. Now, for me... Implementing Space Harrier with a bundle of extra memory to make it work well is fine.. What's not good with me is when Bomb Jack requires 320K+ of memory, and is then compared (20+ years later) against a stock c64.. If a 64 was to chuck that much memory at a game then fuck knows where we'd end up.. Fact is, your definition (and mine) of a stock machine is far from stock in Atari-land.. On the 64 world, it's a 64 and disk drive and that's 'yer lot.. So, for me, games like Sheddys SH + extra memory just to look cool 9/10 for coolness... Bombjack looking no different to something from 20 years before on the 'enemy' platform, needing 320K.. 1/10.. Really.. I can't see why you need that much memory[1].. Unless.. God forbid I say this.. In fact I won't and will leave it up to guessti-weeble-mation what I meant... [1] Sprites ? What a surprise

Y'know... what we really need is a forum dedicated to this kind of discussion that's independent of Atari Age and doesn't get in the way of it. By a strange coincidence... =-) Where ? And don't you dare say 6502.org

It was a suggestion to the mods not a command to them as though I could do that anyway. And yes, I really believe this. When it gets hot and heavy I see what seems to be a dropoff in posting on other topics in the A8 forum. That is just it. The thread saw no posts for about two weeks and was revived by someone who apparently joined simply to post flamebait in it. This sort of behavior presaged some of the worst back and forth in the thread. Like you I enjoyed the other sort of posting here but to see the thread go quiescent only to be woken back up by the sort of post we left behind 300 or so posts ago doesn't encourage me. That and this thread isn't the first place I'd think to look to see what is happening with the obscure corners of POKEY and so forth. To difficult to quote, but in one go (too many beers): I will start off controversially.. You can command the mods ? Really ? If there's one thing I know about this place is that it's highly tolerant.. The only times threads get closed are when a) you piss off a mod of that thread or b) you piss of Albert.. This thread hasn't come anywhere near that, it's been fairly civil and even now still containing your recommended daily intake of wholesome facts.. Really I'm not including syntactical arseholery in that.. That's a whole different kettle of dma accesses.. This thread has been highly educational to me (a veteran 6502 programmer of 25 years) and even today on the day of you calling a close to it, there's come up the nubbins of someones work that is going to take you to another level.. I mean maybe not from elevating A8 games to PS1 levels, but doing better than (x) bit audio on the A8.. Kudos.. Really!!! So some weeble-doo-dah posted something inflamatory, who rose to the bait ? No-one apart from those wanting to play given the context of their post.. Blimey, if you haven't figured out yet that it was just games that have taken place with (whatever the blasphemers name was) today then maybe you should pay more attention... Atariski arrived to correct my reference to the word DAC (in that post entirely correctly given its context), Rybags reminded me that the c64 'might' suffer the same fault, I bit my lip and stopped myself biting at atariski, but apart from that, what ? I've dissed c64 games for being overly shite ruled only by music.. Another old c64 scener has stated that he didn't give two hoots about the games or the music, and that being first was all that mattered.. It's a great thread.. You're all capable of filtering the shit from the caviar, so just do it.. And don't accept any red cheap versions In case you skipped, you don't have to read this (given all things, fairly neutral and at times informative) thread.. It's a great thread, when it springs to life with something useful.. After all, I think at heart we're part of the same sperm donation.. We're all 6502 children, so just be happy, be chilled and lets be happy monkeys without letting your colours war our colour, or our sprites war your players.. Lol, I'm drunk now, but that's what I think.. I can't understand why a bunch of people who share a common gene in the backwards carry flag need to argue

LMAO! Don't laugh, I'll probably get banned for that

You really think that ? I think given that even after 286 pages it should be allowed to run its course.. If you think that course has run then fine, but I guess it's what Albert thinks, or CpuWiz or the other mods of this gaff.. I for one think it's an interesting read on the occasional few times it re-resurfaces from the murky depths.. I'm curious how you think it sucks the oxygen from other threads though.. I've only really ever followed the homebrew, hardware & the 2600/7800 programming forums on here, mainly because their the ones the held any real content.. And this thread really only attracts the postings of a few.. Personally I find this thread a nice easy place to bat^hnter this out, though there's less bat^hntering now, albeit at more of a lounge pace now, but none the less, it's an interesting thread, when not being obliterated by weeble-tards.. It's like whos computer is best, but over White Russians and lounge music whilst seated in nice sofas in the sun It'd be a shame to lock it, I think..

Long, rambling, completely unrelated reply finally deleted, and simply replaced by: Yes

I'm at work so have one for me. Consider it done, but just the one ?

Looks very promising.. The interpolated (if I read the titles right) output at the bottom ? It's from what ? A simulation of the decay or the actual hardware ? Thanks. I replaced the 1.gif file with a picture + comments (in english). (see http://www.phys.uu.nl/~bpos/SAMPLE8/1.gif ) The upper part is just 4bit DAC: A 16step pattern of a 'backwards' sawtooth. The lower part is the same + (backwards) sawtooth wave on top (one nice hardware feature of PoKey). The sawtooth gets resynced by CPU every time a new 4bit DAC value is processed. Thus, no simulations. It was just a first test, and I didn't do anything with it to improve. To improve, I'd need to resync the sawtooth with some delay, to remove the tiny peaks. The nice thing of Pokey is that it supports both 'forwards' AND 'backwards' sawtooth. Thus (indeed like some 'waveform surfing') we can use the forward sawtooth to counter-effect the capacitor-decay, or just to interpolate / smoothen the audio signal. The volume and the pitch of the sawtooth both control how this smoothening will work out. I like that You're a brave man to try it like this.. Do you have enough timer accuracy to do this using the interrrupts alone ? I'd love too see an FFT of that waveform, just curious to see how those small glitches manifest themselves in the spectrum.. You think you'll be able to remove them completely ? And does the decay of the capacitor introduce any limits to the maximum sample rate you can produce with this technique ? And I guess you just reverse the direction of the sawtooths to enable you to produce positive upswings, but how do you handle the capacitor decay when the signal is on a positive upswing ? Surely it'll introduce nasty harmonics ? Akin to that of a sawtooth at the step frequency ? I've been trying a very kind of similar thing on the c64, but with the intention of 'surfing' the envelopes so that it would enable individual level control of voices, since we can't change the level of a voice.. Yes, I know, we can lower sustain levels whilst gated, but I wanted to try something a bit more flexible Anyway, it's proving a nightmare trying to calculate exactly where the envelope generator is at a given cycle, easy on paper..

Totally agree with you on that, except maybe the bit about music.. I think in the 64s case that perhaps music did in fact make some games.. For me back then every new Ocean release was accompanied by a craving to hear what Galway had wrung out of a SID chip this time, though equally it applies to Hubbard and company.. In many cases I think the music is better than the games themselves.. <cough>Thalamus</cough> I do think that the music quality at the time though did propel many games into another league.. One for me is Thing on a Spring.. Without the music it would have been dross, but I kept playing that bugger until I finished the thing, loving every beat of that stupid music Though feeling feckin pissed off when I finished it... As far back catalogues, I'd hazard a guess that the 64 has more utterly utterly utterly utterly shite titles in its catalogue then the entire total of the A8 And before the Atari stake burners arrive for me that's meant as a condemnation of 64 titles, not A8 titles Personally, I hold the demo-scene at the time responsible where suddenly every man and his multiplexed and raster coloured dog thought that since they could knock out a demo, they could knock out games, and flog them to the budget houses for sod all cash.. I know a lot of people came into the games industry that way (I did for sure) but I think the quality of stuff suffered a lot at that point, not only through immaturity, but through the sheer number of people available in the c64 development world.. I think that later the C64 was unfortunate to be there at a time when Arcade conversions were all the rage, and things that wouldn't otherwise have been attempted were done just for the money and to flog boxes of shit that shouldn't be sold.. AfterBurner on 64 is a good example, and before you judge me, I worked on that abortion.. The really good titles that use a 64 for what it is are really few and far between in the grand scheme of things.. I await my ritual burning at the hands of the 64 stake people now Oops, sorry for the long post that veered slightly away from what I wanted to say, but I left work early and am sitting in the glorious Vienna sun having some beers, and got carried away.. Forgive me

I'm not getting into this syntactical rubbish with you again, just calm down a bit, and don't take everything so personally or as afront to your beloved machine..

Looks very promising.. The interpolated (if I read the titles right) output at the bottom ? It's from what ? A simulation of the decay or the actual hardware ?

Wow, the secret weapons of the Atarians are really being rolled out now Sounds cool, though a bit of a waveform surfing timing nightmare at first thought.. You say not used many times before ? Where can I find some examples of this in action, although I'm guessing emulators are out of the question with this technique at the moment ?

I remember your comment, and I agree to some degree.. You were listening to the mod playback in 8 bits and I agree totally that they sound rough as hell.. Playing back one 8 bit sample sounds exactly as it should do at the given sample rate, believe me I've checked this and bar a (very) small non-linearity on the 6581 DAC, the 8580 is perfectly linear.. It achieves exactly what it says on the tin.. What people choose to do with those 8bits of audio and try to munge into 8bits is up to them, but what I've heard doesn't sell it's ability in any way at all.. So far.. I think people got too carried away with wanting to play mods which quite frankly I hate both the idea and the format

12-Bit samples at 24Khz ? We didn't mention that one before did we /me stops throwing fuel on the fire...

Yeah, but at least the 64s NMIs work reliably

Maybe consider rendering text as outlines, I mean literally draw the outlines simply modifying co-ordinates taking into account size, skew and rotation and then render the outline into a buffer big enough for it and fill using an eor-filler.. You'll then only have to blit it onto the screen.. You can also use that as a font cache, if you've got the required character with the parameters you need.. I can't think of a way that's more 'flexible'.. You get scaling, rotation, 'bold', italics from one common character definition.. Just it might not be the fastest in the world.. Even if your character is in the font-cache, you'd still potentially have to shift it into place, but that's not a biggy really.. Two tables, one for the shifted result and one for the overflow into the next byte.. And the filler can be done damn fast, something like 8 cycles per 8 pixels (6 cycles if you get messier), and you'd only have to unroll it for one column of the maximum height of your font-cache or rendered character.. Hell, you could even interleave it directly into the shifting and masking operation of the character onto the screen if you didn't want to cache it, in fact you could interleave it with the write to the screen as well as caching it for top speed.. Combined with a hash-map and binary search you could find cached characters in no time at all.. Even if it didn't render characters as outlines directly, you could probably compress your (outlined) font quite nicely when you need to render a character.. But I reckon it'd make for quite an awesome font system.. TrueType fonts on an A8 maybe Rotation of the font would be a doddle then, especially if you store the fonts coordinates in polar-coordinates, and that'd also make the scaling nice and easy, just changing r before converting back to Cartesian. Anyway maybe it's too much, I'll shut up now, just a bit of brain dump that this subject inspired.. I was heading for the telly now, but since Visual Studio is already open and 6502 assembly already fills the screen, I might have a little play with this.. I'm curious about how fast this might be now

The Last Word sounds like the final chapter in the Last Ninja story, on his quest to find the final missing word from the holy scrolls of Raster where upon all the register pokery secrets of the universe will be revealed to him TLW does sound better, it rolls off the tongue easier I think, mind you that might be just my tongue this morning