Shaggy the Atarian
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Posts posted by Shaggy the Atarian
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Letsa go!
We did discover a glitch - it's not handling coin pulses (from when you drop a coin in and it triggers a switch) properly. It keeps giving 2 for 1 drop. Since the service menu hasn't been implemented yet, they have to recode it at their facility then bring an update in. Should be resolved by tomorrow
Also there's something I hadn't noticed at the show for some reason. The panel has 4 start buttons, but only 3 player slots. The coin slots are also directly tied to each player spot (most games these days use the "common chute" setting, which treats every slot as one instead of separated out individually. Generally this is an option that the operator can set to their liking, but default for most games is the common)
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2 minutes ago, TampaBay said:
Nice. How long do you have it for? Few weeks / months?
Three months. Arcade devs do different things, often it's for six weeks. This software will not have online features, so I imagine they want to get it up to that point so they can then test it with that, and see how it compares.
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33 minutes ago, TampaBay said:
Awesome! Very cool. I'm sure you have the perfect spot in your arcade picked out!
Yeah, we kicked out Pac-Man Battle Royale for it (just put that one in the back of the store next to the foosball table...unfortunately, cocktail cabs are often a little challenging to place).
Here's the spot where it will likely be the whole time, although might try and move it once or twice just to experiment with how things go depending upon the placement (right in front of the front desk area)
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3 hours ago, TampaBay said:
@Shaggy the Atarian Is it up and running today? Anybody playing it yet?
Edit: With time difference you may not be open yet!
No worries!
As of me writing this (12:21pm), the game hasn't arrived yet. They did call and say they were getting it ready, but I'm still just twiddling my thumbs. 🤠Pretty sure it will be here within the next hour or two though.
They will be setting it to 75¢ to start, 50¢ to continue for starters. It sounds like the software hasn't changed much (from what James at ALan-1 said) compared to Amusement Expo. We'll see how that goes and adjust as needed.
About a minute after I posted, I got a text saying they are on their way. It'll be about an hour between them driving/setup
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6 hours ago, Video said:
I'm sure most us a holes will give our feedback/opinions regardless 😛, look forward to seeing some video footage.
I've noticed the ginormous screens on lots of (the few) modern arcades I've seen. I'm all for big screens, but some are so big I get the sense their using it as a pseudo attract mode for people across the room, or even outside the arcade. How practical is this giant screen for the player standing right next to it though? (I've seen machines, but due to time constraints and/or not interested in the specific game, I've not played one yet)
I'd totally try asteroids though, when/if a local place gets one.
There definently is a point where it can get too big, but that also depends on the game and distance between the control panel and screen. From the little I played of Asteroids it seemed a little close, but that was also at a trade show where you had glare making it hard to see everything on the screen at times. In my dark arcade, I should get a better feel for it.
A very new example of what you're talking about is Space Invaders Gigamax (Round1USA version). This only handles 6 players but it can get up to 10 and cover the whole side of a building. This was definently made as an attraction from far off. The game on the far left in the pic below uses a 65" screen to compare:
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I believe more than one arcade here in Utah might be testing Asteroids (I'm just not certain which at this point - Alan-1 folk can chime in on that if they wish), but just wanted to share that starting tomorrow, those who live or are visiting the Salt Lake valley area will be able to go and play Asteroids Recharged at Arcade Galactic. I will have a post on the site tomorrow with some pics; I will also be doing some videos.
It is the 3-player (55" screen) edition.
This is going to be a location test, which means pricing will be set to what Alan-1's default is and the software will NOT be the final product. There may be bugs/glitches or things that haven't been implemented yet that Alan-1 will eventually set in place for the final build. Alan-1 will be looking for feedback (good, neutral or bad), which you can pass along to us.
The game will be on test for three months, at which point we'll see how things have gone.
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21 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:
I think these games will fail. They are too true to the originals, and not iconic enough to pull that off.
In the right retrocade/gamebar they can probably do fine but yeah, I'm not optimistic about either of these. I would love to see them do well; I'm excited for them as an Atarian, but so far I'm not interested as an operator.
I had a Warlords cocktail for several years. I mainly had it for nostalgia's sake, not because it made any business sense. When it worked though, it would average 75¢ a week (don't worry, I did sell it a few years ago - but I did end up keeping it for far too long).
The only times it would go above that are when I took it to a gaming convention OR I noticed a group of people looking at it but unsure, so I'd convince them to give it a play and then they would go crazy once it "clicked." That's not something you can rely on for any location out there to do though. Same thing happened with Cosmotrons. It basically needed a carnival barker there to get people to try and understand the game. Arcades need to do that naturally for them to be a success.
The main thing that these both need is a much flashier cabinet. You need a marquee like Pac-Man Battle Royale has, and artwork and LED lighting plastering the cabinet. This can be done tastefully - otherwise, completely black cabinets in a dark environment are going to get overlooked.
Then, like was discussed in the other thread, you need more going on visually to grab people. In the video I linked to in the post, the designers wanted to stay true to the original. The problem is that 97% of the public has never heard of these games and have no nostalgia for them. I doubt every Atari fan out there has even played Food Fight. As commendable as the sentiment from the devs is, it's just not going to work in today's market. The World's Largest Pac-Man and Space Invaders Frenzy did great, not just because of those names, but because you were playing the games on a giant 8' LED billboard screen. Put the same games on a normal 43" or 55" HD display and they wouldn't have done anywhere near as well.
Aside from putting these onto a giant 75" screen or an 8' LED screen (or doing something else unique, like a dome screen), perhaps the compromise would be to have a "Original" and "Enhanced" option on startup (either on the game screen or have separate start buttons - or charge more for Enhanced, like "Insert another coin or swipe card again to play with ENHANCED graphics!") - or allow the operator to set which type of graphics that they would find appeals to their clientele the most.
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Since I imagine many don't frequent the arcade forum very often, here's the story:
Atari’s Food Fight Frenzy Unveiled At Midwest Gaming Classic
The article is mainly focused on Food Fight Frenzy; The Warlords cocktail remake has been at some tradeshows since 2022, but news about it seems to have slipped under many a radar. It'll be released this summer
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Love or hate early 90s 3D, I think it's easy to say that the jump from single-color 2D objects to low poly textured 3D would technically be considered a massive improvement
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Asteroids is not the only Atari IP to get the remake treatment in arcades this year. I will have an article about this later today with more details (just waiting on pics)
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16 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:
I think the music in Dariusburst Another Chronicle is terrible. It is boring, depressing and artsy-fartsy. I would much have preferred something upbeat and catchy, like this:
Failing that, I would have preferred scary music. But I agree that most games get better with appropriate music.
Well, I should have used the world "subjective" - being produced by the world famous Zuntata, there are a lot of people who would disagree with you there. I think it's fantastic, and Taito did enough to release the game's soundtrack on CD. But, it also is something you have to play on a cabinet to fully appreciate. When certain things happen with the music, they were synced to events in the game, so when you just listen to the music apart from that, it can sound strange.
The sound system on a DBAC cabinet is also crazy good, with a pair of subwoofers in the seat. I once experimented with the bass levels and when the walls started shaking, I had to pull back a little.
The main point is that there's nothing like getting the full audio/visual experience from an arcade cabinet where everything has been crafted for that specific game and feel...something that's lost at home where everyone has different TV and speaker setups.
26 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:Asteroids Recharged´s advantages over Pac-Man Battle Royale Chompianship are:
1) Redemption.
2) Higher appeal amongst very old school players due to being more similar to the original (see next paragraph).
Redemption being an advantage depends entirely upon what Alan-1 does with this. If it's tacked on and an afterthought like it was at the show, I don't think it's going to make any difference. It has to have its own mode and set up that way for it to work.
#2 though, I think we as Atarians overvalue what the public thinks of Atari's IPs. There's no way that Asteroids is going to have broader audience appeal over Pac-Man. Asteroids has barely existed in the public conscious since the '80s, whereas Namco has kept PM alive with one game after the other. That doesn't mean that Recharged has no chance, but I think that the Alan-1 team should approach it like they were making something original and do what feels natural to the game, rather than obsess over making a miniscule segment of the market happy (which, from some comments I've already read criticizing AR, they're not going to be happy with anything other than an exact 1:1 Asteroids remake with a vector monitor, which would be a massive flop)
13 hours ago, ledzep said:Ok, I understand that, but there has to be a limit, yes? If a game comes out that's louder, won't the other games suffer and then they have to be louder in order to make money? And then if they're louder, too, then the first game loses that advantage and has to be even louder, to the final result that you can't even hear yourself think inside the arcade? "Enough" soundtrack and attract mode sounds should be good enough for all the games, they're all levelled out to be attracting but not deafening. But there are games that need actual in-game sound effects to tell you what happened along with the graphics, right? What happens if they're drowned out by overbearing music? I've played games where I've died because the goofy game music was so loud I didn't notice an alarm or ship sound warning me of some enemy sneaking up on me. At that point, turn down the goddamn music. Unless you're not there to actually play the game, just listen to its music.
That's what volume controls are for
I do totally agree that a game has to have a great sound mix, but it can be done. This is one place where I think that Alan-1 can greatly improve on AR. At present, there is no distinctive sound for when UFOs appear, there's no tension from the JAWS-like heartbeat thump that the original had. The thump could be the music or they get a song that integrates that, without being too loud.
QuoteI understand, what I was saying was even without the headset, that first version was an interesting idea for a different point of view for the same basic game mechanics. It could work with a Star Wars yoke, I think. But if the gameplay isn't as good, meaning the controls don't let you be accurate enough to actually target and destroy the missiles, or the missiles look stupid as they're descending (meaning you miss them because they weren't represented accurately enough overhead) then the game will be frustrating.
A yoke might be OK, but IMHO, a trackball is the only way to play MC, unless you did have the headset w/ tracking.
QuoteBut "VR headset" doesn't excuse the clumsy looking "mountains" or the low-rez cities.
That was just an issue with the Jaguar
QuoteA new arcade version would certainly fix those visuals, I think, and be a cool new version of Missile Command. But hopefully not too easy or slow or too loaded with power-ups. It would be cool to have the cities spread around, like a few are close to the player, others are farther away, so that the missiles come down in many directions, not just left/right like in the original, an umbrella effect seen from below. But that would be challenging, which would repel modern gamers, which would result in poor sales. Forget I said any of that.
Any game should follow Nolan's old motto: "Easy to the learn, difficult to master," although in today's market, you do have to keep it from being frustratingly difficult. Spread the cities too far out and when its raining nukes, I'm not sure that would be very fun to manage...although I've never cared much for Missile Command anyways as it kind of hits that energy in later waves
The one game in the series I've liked the most was Missile Command 3D (although I don't play Plus mode much, more the VR mode, where you have the lasers). Super Missile Command on the Lynx was really good too. Either way, it's all about balancing, and you can make a game that's challenging that appeals to modern gamers (see Elden Ring). With most games though, you can't hit them with DEFCON 1 difficulty right off the bat or jump from DEF5 to 1 after one round, and expect them to keep playing.
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1 hour ago, Lord Mushroom said:
I have never even seen a video redemption game in real life, so I am not exactly an expert either.
Centipede Chaos did ok by all accounts, but unfortunately, put any "coin pusher" next to a videmption game and the pusher will annihilate it, earnings wise.
The best earning redemption games are the quickest ones as they get players to insert another credit every few seconds. The longer the game is, the less returns you get on that.
If Asteroids Recharged wants to succeed in that arena, what they'll need to do is design a completely separate redemption mode. Something that only lasts for 100 asteroids or so, then challenges you for the bonus. That's what Space Invaders Frenzy and Galaga Assault did and it worked well, but just tacking on tickets to the normal game will not compel people to play it any more than a standard score will, since the games can go on for too long (i.e., More than 60 seconds) and as mentioned, Asteroids has a much steeper learning curve than a standard redemption game where all you do is swipe your card and/or just push a button to see if you win.
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On 4/3/2024 at 4:24 PM, ledzep said:
Interesting, I may actually have that game (in a box somewhere).
I like the idea of that first version. The graphics suck (the missiles look like colored blobs) but that could be fixed in a modern arcade version (much higher resolution now). I cannot stand those giant mountains or whatever they're supposed to be (they feel like Easter Island statues), makes the cities you're defending look like stacks of oil drums, but I suppose they're there to keep you oriented to what direction you're looking in (along with the lens flare) so I'm not sure what they could be replaced by. I think if they made the mountains look more like mountains and changed the shooter's perspective to be lower to the ground then the mountains wouldn't have to be so tall (some skyscrapers could do the job) and the cities would appear larger and more like actual cities. There could also be a grid or other indicators superimposed on the sky (there are already targeting pips superimposed) to keep you oriented.
The second version is crap. That's not Missile Command anymore, it's Laser Command. Might be a fun game but it loses the anticipation and strategy of the original, now it's just instantly shoot everything that moves (feels more like Star Raiders). Part of what made Missile Command hard and fun (anathema to modern gamers, I know) was having to time the missiles to reach the targets at the right time, which ABM base to use. I cannot stand these modern floaty animations, it's like watching the Disneyland Peoplemover up in the sky. I'm not sure what this obsession is with lasers for everything, missiles are great for this game theme.
Lose the goddamn music. The actual missile sounds are way cooler when playing a game like that, and having the perspective with stereo speakers could give you hints about where off-screen missiles are coming down from (left or right). Seriously, a modern arcade is going to be saturated with music already, either from the in-house speakers or every other weak game nearby, no need to add more bland notes.
I mean, just listen to the original game, all the sounds have a purpose so that you know what's going on even if you're not looking at the specific area -
Can't tell why modern gamers don't like sound effects and prefer neverending music instead. There could be sounds for power-ups as well, just a quick tone or something to alert the player.
In vying for attention in an arcade though, the less flash and noise your game makes, the less chance it has of getting played. Just like in movies, a good, fitting soundtrack to the action makes a huge amount of difference:
In terms of arcades, there are some games which miss the audio mark but there are others where it just nails it and the sound becomes more compelling to bring players back than the graphics. I have a few games that do that - Dariusburst Another Chronicle, Maximum Tune 5, SpaceWarp 66 - all have great music and sound effects that elevate the games like John Williams elevates E.T. or Star Wars.
In regards to MC3D, keep in mind that it was designed for use with a VR headset, so you just looked around and could aim and shoot down the missile quickly. Since that headset wasn't released, the Jag version is lacking; Feels like it would have worked better with a trackball controller instead of the slow D-Pad.
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5 hours ago, ledzep said:
Would it be possible for you to lease those games you own (and maybe don't need) out to some newer places that need some games? Or does it not work that way?
If you can find someone else willing to split on them, yes. That's what most "route operators" do as opposed to running a location with all of the associated costs.
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On 3/31/2024 at 7:02 AM, Lord Mushroom said:
I am sure it has a lot of resell value, so they only need to make up its price depreciation.
It certainly does, although I'm sure they didn't buy it just to shoot out a few prints and sell it. TBF, most arcade devs are not setting up their own fabrication process either(not even Raw Thrills does that), so Alan-1 would be an exception to the rule.
On 3/31/2024 at 10:46 AM, jhd said:I wonder if there is a viable business model for a third-party to purchase the games and then lease them out to the operators.
I understand that aircraft are often financed in a similar manner; airlines lease the planes from a third-party who actually purchased them from Boeing/Airbus/etc.
There are leasing options (temp leasing or lease to own) in the industry. I've used many of them, although there are still a couple of issues:
-If you are new, getting lease options is very limited, since you don't have any business credit. Having good personal credit helps but even then you can still be denied as most banks/financiers want to see a track record of success before they lend you cash. In my case, I had to get an SBA loan as no one who services the industry would even talk to me the moment I said I was a start-up. That is especially true if you happen to be trying to get a game that costs $50k, as they will see that as a super high risk between the cost and the fact that you are inexperienced.
-Getting leasing is relatively easy if you've been around for a while - the issue just becomes, how many 5 year payment plans at $700-$1200/mo can you handle with these super expensive games? True, you don't need to go out and get every game as it is released, it's wiser just to get one/two a year.
I do recommend that arcades bring a few new things in a year, as never changing your game mix can equal stagnation (and we discussed that a bit in another thread with Lord Mushroom). Yes, there are programs for some games where you can lease and send it back after a certain amount of time. It's just that if you find a game that's really worth all the trouble, you want to own it.
My problem is that I have so many of those that have accumulated on me, that I'm at the point where I would be stupid to take on more at the moment. Too many games on debt increases the risk, especially if earnings start dropping. I'd much rather have zero debt and be able to buy anything I want for cash, but unfortunately that just hasn't been possible to do outside of an exception here and there. Still, the businesses which can best survive hard times are those with the least amount of debt.
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Little more context on current arcade pricing that I got from a single distributor; A couple I'd heard other prices on, so I'll use a ~. Pricing always depends on which distro you use:
Asphalt 9 Legends Arcade Premium (LAI Games) - $14,300 each
Asphalt 9 Legends Arcade DX (LAI Games) - $22,650 each
Asphalt 9 Legends Arcade VR (LAI Games) - $50k approx.
Bobblehead Baseball Vs. (Andamiro) - $6500~9850
Bust-A-Move Frenzy (Raw Thrills) - $15,950
Crazy Rafting (Sega) - $18,300
Cruis'n Blast (Raw Thrills) - $11,650 each (originally sold for $7500, so this is new Inflation Era pricing)
Daytona Championship USA (Sega) - $11,000 each
Dead Heat Unleashed (Namco) - $12,500 each
Drone Racing Genesis (Sega) - $13,450 each
Fast & Furious Arcade DX (Raw Thrills) - $25,000~$27,000 each
Fast & Furious Arcade SD (Raw Thrills) - $12,900 each
Halo: Fireteam Raven 4-player "tethered" (Raw Thrills) - $22,100~$24,000
House of the Dead Scarlet Dawn (Sega) - $24,400 (originally sold for $28,000)
Jurassic Park Arcade (Raw Thrills) - $17,200 (sold at $12,500 new in 2015)
Mario Kart Arcade GP DX (Namco) - $13,100 (started at $10,000 each back in 2013)
Maximum Tune 5DX+ Quad (Namco) - $50,000
Minecraft Dungeons Arcade (Raw Thrills) - $15,590 (got mine for $14,100 in 2021)
Mission: Impossible Arcade SDX (Sega) - $35,400 (started at $32k when released a few years ago IIRC)
Mission: Impossible Arcade DX (Sega) - $17,100 (was $15k just a couple of years ago)
Monster Eye 2 (IGS/ Wahlap) - $21,588 (Chinese designed and manufactured)
NFS Heat Takedown SD (Adrenaline) - $13,100
Nitto Racer (Nitto Fun) - $9995 (Chinese designed and manufactured)
Pac-Man Battle Royale Chompionship SD - $7450
Pac-Man Battle Royale Chompionship DX - $19,995
QUBE (Trio-tech) - $99,950 (no, that is not a typo)
Sky Rider SD (Ace Amusement) - $12,395 (Chinese designed and manufactured)
Sniper Strike II (Amusement Source) - $26,211 (Chinese designed and manufactured)
Space Invaders Frenzy (Raw Thrills) - $17,200
Speed Driver 5 (IGS/Wahlap) - $12,053 each (Chinese designed and manufactured)
Speed Rider 3DX (IGS/Saint Fun) - $26,442 (Taiwanese designed and manufactured)
Storm Rider 2 (Sega) - $31,750~$36,000
Thunder Attack (Amusement Source) - $8595 (Chinese designed and manufactured)
Transformers: Shadows Rising (Sega) - $17,100 (started at $15,995 back in 2018)
Virtual Rabbids: The Big Ride Ultra HD - $57,950 (Started at around $50k pre-inflation)
Perhaps the most comparable example here to Alan-1 and Asteroids would be the Pac-Man Chompionship games. Namco owns Pac-Man and the base game is just a remix of of Pac-Man Championship DX that they made years ago. The SD version supports 4 players and has a 32" screen, DX is 8-players and has a 75" screen plus 2x 32" screens for the marquee. Still, it probably didn't cost Namco that much on the soft side, but the pricing is pretty high.
Some of this pricing is to meet FEC demand, since they are loaded and make bank, which has been one factor in driving pricing up. But, it's not the only one.
Really sucks to be a poor op like myself and wanting to get something new, as most everything is not affordable without getting into some very heavy monthly payments.
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1 hour ago, TampaBay said:
As always, thanks for the insight. Very appreciated. You always provide such great background and detail.
Correct, I didn't necessarily have any problems or questions about the total cost of the cabinet, as I realize how much goes into it. My question was solely about the incremental cost of the 3 player vs 2 player. If Ford put out a regular cab F-150 truck for $40,000 (one row of seats) and their SuperCrew of the same truck with an extra row of seats was $80,000, that would raise some eyebrows. Apples to Oranges with arcade cabinets I guess, but the premise is similar. I see your point about the target client though and what that client is willing to spend.
Welcome - I did get autistic on it for anyone else who might not know all the background behind it - overall, lots of factors and costs that have to be covered, so when you have a high cost product, you've got to charge enough to pay for it all.
1 hour ago, Lord Mushroom said:Those were high end video arcade games only, though. The software development for the Recharged arcade games should be minimal. They are just tweaking pre-existing games.
I am sure they also spend less on hardware development, but nowhere near as much less as with software.
Unfortunately there aren't any other hard numbers than anyone has thrown out there, so it just gives you an idea. I think Sega's hinted that their games cost around $3m to develop. I've never heard an indie or start-up talk about how much it cost them to get into this business, except for one guy who wanted to make a helicopter shoot 'em up game and decided not to because what he wanted to do would cost him almost $2m.
I mentioned all of those things that Alan-1 has to look at or has spent on to paint the broader picture - I noticed that the cost of Avian Knights is the same. It could be that the cost of Avian is such that Asteroids will help cover some of that. That high-end, very expensive printer they have will need quite a few games to sell just to pay for itself alone.
No, they don't have to build Asteroids from scratch, but all of those tweaks they made/will make isn't free to do. I don't know what kind of license cost it has, but that's a factor into it all.
It's logical that they're trying to cover all of the their costs between the two games; they also don't have much of a difference between the cabs, aside from art and controls. But again, they have facilities, very high end manufacturing equipment, commercial grade parts, labor paying US wages...so it's tough to get it down to a Chinese or Arcade1up level.
That said, it could be that it's cheap for them to produce and cheap on the software and they're tacking on a bit there. No clue what actual costs they have to cover and what profit margins they are aiming for. I would just say that given what I see with every manufacturer out there these days, the costs aren't way off. World's Largest Pac-Man went for something like $15,000 in 2016 and it was just Pac-Man with two players (developed by Raw Thrills, released by Namco). They latter added Galaga to it, but I doubt their dev costs were that high on either one so it was likely just hardware costs and a healthy profit margin.
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I think it would be nice to track new locations that open their doors out there. Unfortunately, most of the time that gaming media talks about arcades is when some famous place closes their doors.
On Arcade Heroes, I've been reporting on new locations that open their doors for many years. But it doesn't hurt to spread the word (or have a place like this where people can share news on ones they've come across).
So to start:
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3 hours ago, TampaBay said:
I think we need @Shaggy the Atarian to shed some light on this! Just curious if there would be a reason the 3 player costs double the 2 player. Obviously you would expect a significant price difference for the larger cabinet and extra control panel, but the incremental cost for an additional player is the same as buying an entire separate new cabinet.
I do see this pop-up a lot as expectations are set by cheap games on Steam or GOG. I just have to remind everyone that the average cost of a modern arcade machine is currently at around $14kUSD. In the '10s, it was $7500 avg; Back in the Golden Age, was around $2800. But, you have to adjust for inflation and all that.
One thing to keep in mind is that the most likely sales scenario that you're looking at with an arcade machine is in the hundreds, whereas a $10 is probably going to sell into the 10,000s...or if it's a hit, 6 or 7-digits. You can count the number of arcade games that broke the 100k sales barrier on one hand. Even Asteroids only sold around 50k back at the height of the arcade industry.
These days, a game that sells more than 10,000 units is almost a unicorn. The only recent games I've heard of managing that are Cruis'n Blast by Raw Thrills and whatever new Golden Tee. The more likely scenario is 1-3,000 units. Just at that scale, your pricing has to be different to try and make up for the R&D costs plus manufacturing and marketing costs.
I've talked to many small operations (you could call them "indie" but I find that most don't like that badge in this business) and many are lucky to sell 50 units. Much less 100. The super-famous Killer Queen, last I heard, only managed to sell 128 cabinets, according to them. Cosmotrons sold under 30; ReRave Arcade was exactly 50. I don't know how much a small group like Alan-1 has spent on development, but from what I saw, the fact that they bought their own printing press and CNC router means they're already into it in the realm of six figures. That wouldn't include game dev costs.
Other costs that have to be covered: labor (x by how many employees and whatever their wages are); Cost of facilities (owning or renting, it's going to cost something and if you are building a bunch of cabs, you need a lot of space for housing them until they sell); all the utilities that go into that; Travel to trade shows and other marketing; taxes; insurance. In the case of Asteroids, you have to throw on a licensing fee, which is whatever they agreed to with Atari. Then you need some level of profit on top of all that, although I have no clue what their margins might be. If they were selling through a distributor, those companies can tack on an additional 5-13%, depending upon the product.
Pre-pandemic, just development of the software and a prototype cabinet cost around $4 million. That's per Eugene Jarvis, being the number he threw out for both Terminator Salvation and Jurassic Park Arcade. Post-pandemic inflation, probably $6-7m. Then there's manufacturing. If you go to an arcade cabinet factory you are required to buy all of the materials for each cabinet and you have to have a minimum order. It can be 100 cabinets or 500. If a cabinet costs you $8000 to build(just making up a number here, could be less on the materials and labor), then multiply that x100 or x500.
I have no idea how much Alan-1 has spent on soft and hard development, but I'm sure its not the cost of a fast food meal, as expensive as those have become lately. For a start-up though, I've been quite impressed with what I've seen. It's not exactly out of their garage.
As to why the big jump in cost between their 2p cabinet and 3p, my best guess is cost of materials. You've not only got more wood, cabling, art vinyl, buttons, and lighting, you've got the bigger monitor. When you're scaling to mass production, you're not going to go to Best Buy and purchase a bunch of TVs. You're probably going to buy an open frame monitor from a commercial manufacturer, which costs 3-4x as much as a TV. Sure, you can still get bulk discounts when you make a certain number, but it still costs more than a residential product. Then there's additional labor required to build the cabinets...and finally, these are being built in the USA. If they had built them in China, they probably could get them made at half the cost, but there's a real danger in having your software being pirated (lately the Chinese pirates have been getting pretty aggressive and they manage to sell games into countries that US manufacturers almost never get into). Perhaps they also just want to say made in the USA too, I didn't ask on that subject yet.
One last thing as to why the $13k price is there is that the chances are that the 3-player model will go into FECs. They mentioned at the show that some reps from Dave & Busters passed by and were very interested. Sometimes, prices are set to target specific buyers. The FEC market has money to spend, so if I was Alan-1, I'd be looking at that and seeing if it could help my margins.
Hope that helps show why making arcade games is a crazy and high risk endeavor...but it can pay off with the right games.
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On 3/27/2024 at 9:02 PM, Giles N said:
What about new games?
Are ‘new arcades’ attracting people?
Does it matter what people see first when they enter?
Yes, yes, and yes
As I posted a few pages back, new games pay my bills. Retro just works as indirect, supplemental income.
The best brand new games are the ones that pay themselves off so fast that they end up helping pay for lesser performing games. As an example, my Cruis'n Blast (which cost a little above $14k as I bought two of them), paid itself off in 5 1/2 months. Brand new pinball machines however, can take 7-10 years to pay themselves off 😪
For those giant FECs out there, they'll have professionals figure out the best/most optimal layout for the equipment they've purchased. This also has to be combined with the electrical layout, as the bigger and fancier the machine gets, the more power it'll draw.
Generally speaking, you'd be crazy top put all of your old, non-flashy stuff at the front and shove your brand new machine that you just paid $25k for in the back or lowest foot traffic area of the space. Some like to think the "build it and they will come" thing works, but not in a facility where you've got tons of games all vying for your attention.
QuoteAny plans for where you’ll put the Asteroids:Racharged cabinet?
What sort of impression do you think that game and cabinet will make? Attract kids, oldschoolers, families [parent(s) + kid(s)]? Have you already made space for it in your plans, or will you just how it fares…?
At the moment my space is limited but I have a good idea of where it and Avian Knights will go. I'll be testing out the smaller 2-player cabs which will be easier to squeeze in, but I'll probably be placing them within the front "island" I have that's in front of my desk - at least to start. It also would make sense to place them at the front of my Classic Corner area and see how it goes.
I personally like how the games look but what will my customers think of them? I can only guess for now. It'll be interesting to observe though, and get feedback. Otherwise, my expectation is that oldschoolers, the few that I get, will be drawn to give them a play. What is most telling though is - will they give it a second, and a third play? That's the ultimate test for any game you have in a space.
QuoteAs to changing Arcades, do you need to sell off cabinet and all, or just get a compatible curcuit board and sell or store the other (unpopular, less popular board)?
It depends - I regularly do rotate things out. I'll only sell off a solid game if it's a crazy good deal that I'm able to get for it. Otherwise, when I get people asking to buy my Addams Family pinball, I have to decline as even though it's not this giant money maker, it is consistent and it's the best earning pin I have, so no point in selling that off.
QuotePerhaps, if you got some stuff that takes up quite a lot of space, but doesn’t make enough money - if its not super-expensive or rare - use it as prize in a one-year long competition (you set up, define and ‘host’) where the people who plsy for it, must at least partake in 35-50 rounds of something at your place over a year. They don’t need to show up every time at exactly same day per week, but must at least partake in 35 out of 52 x 2 ‘competition-hours’ - lets say, held Friday and Saturday evening 20:00 during a year.
Way ahead of you there
Here's the pinball tournament we have going on right now as I write this. It's not being well-attended due to Easter weekend, but usually we can get 20-25 people around. Local pinball fans organize and run it, I just give them a place to play. I really appreciate that they do that, since they have a built in player base.
I've learned that trying to organize my own tournament is not easy though. We've had limited success doing so, as most of the people that follow me on social media are not locals. Many customers who come in day-in, day-out, are just in the mall for something else and have a little time to kill, so they don't care about tournaments (unless I was able to offer up some giant prize, but I can't afford to do that yet).
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I'm almost done with coverage, but still got a few loose ends to tie up
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14 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:
Yes, keeping a game that does poorly for a year or two sounds too long. Obviously, some of the games will be the worst performer even if all games are doing well to varying degrees. In which case it could make sense to keep them around for a bit. But if a game is doing $5 per week or something, it is a waste of space.
If they don´t lose much value, you could change videmption machines frequently. Or if they drop quickly in value, you could buy them used. They won´t make as much, but they would be cheaper, and better performing than what you would have had instead (ruling out ticket redemption).
For some added context, I did operate a second location from 2020-2022 in a city about 45 min. north of my original one; That did allow me to test out games but it's a long story...suffice it to say, I swapped where I could and did testing; I also have another location where we cycle games out (a private break room). That is where some heavy debt has accumulated, however. I opened the 2nd location as a "Plan B" to the FEC here, and everything seemed to be much better (better, more upscale mall - I was even next door to Victoria's Secret, no competition in the region). Failing there, does give me pause for moving out the mall and trying it out elsewhere - at least in this present condition and debt.
On keeping games, there's one other aspect that's a little odd - moving them around and seeing if things change. I've seen a game here and there make a huge jump in earnings by just moving it a few feet. Of course, you can't move them around every week. But in part, keeping certain games around for a while is to give them a chance. But, I have sold off quite a few games, did a video about that one.
The trade off of picking cheap used videmption games is that they tend to not be good earners to begin with. You can get lucky here and there, but in the process of operating multiple locations in the past, cycling games in and out is not as easy in practice as it is on paper.
QuoteI hear the machines that measure how hard you can punch are popular in bars. Maybe one of those would work in your place too.
Yeah, I have been looking into those - boxers, skeeball, kiddie games, certain merchandizers are all good ways to bolster business. At where things are at now, I probably won't be able to make some major changes until next year.
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Asteroids Recharged On Test At Arcade Galactic In Utah
in Atari General
Posted
There are four start buttons but only three controls - I'm guessing they made a last minute decision to remove the 4th player (might have had an unforeseen problem and they didn't have time due to that show).