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Shaggy the Atarian

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Everything posted by Shaggy the Atarian

  1. That's because it was 20/30/40 years ago. I get it, you hate the Tramiels with every fiber of your being. Not sure how stewing over that now does any good or what it has to do with a product that is selling right now from completely different people. Atari SA has a long and recorded habit of screwing people out of what is owed for their work, including the guys who helped design the VCS. You want to reward that and act like it's no big deal, probably because you aren't the one that is/was screwed. While I agree that the PS[4/5/whatever] always gets sales based off of goodwill and expectations, what's a killer app is entirely subjective to the person. The fact of the matter is that the not only is the platform itself selling millions - so are many of the exclusive games. You or I might not care about Ratchet & Clank, but there are millions of other people who do, so for them a game like that or Spider-Man is a "killer app." A lot more people talk about and stream games from the PS5 than anything that's on the VCS. Is Food Fight going to be a killer app for the VCS? Maybe it could be for some people, but that gets completely undercut once it's available for other platforms. Not sure why this basic business concept is so hard to grasp.
  2. It doesn't matter when you found out about Atari, you can still shill for the company like you've been doing. If you want to do that, then fine. I think we've all shilled for them at some point in our lives, I just find it ridiculous to do so for the current owners of the company who haven't earned the business of most consumers. This is a red herring argument. Again - none of those people have any connection whatsoever to the VCS. They have a connection to the brand, but saying people should buy this new system for the sake of their memories or brand or whatever makes zero sense. The modern VCS wouldn't exist either if it wasn't for companies like Nintendo and Sony keeping the flame alive after Atari botched it with everything after the 2600. Like Matt_B said, your info on this is skewed. Atari SA - the one we're talking about right now, so is what is important to this conversation - is headquartered in France. Says so right on their stock listing. Fred Chesnais, the CEO of the company while the VCS was under 99% of it's development, is French. The guy who originally proposed the VCS and was it's first designer before Atari didn't pay him was Feargal Mac Conuladh, who is also French. Rob Wyatt might be American, but he was the 2nd designer they brought in, and you're forgetting that he didn't finish the VCS, since Atari decided not to pay him either for over six months, so Atari had to find some other company to finish it up. They contacted a Chinese company called UNIS to do that, but they declined, so I'm not sure who they found to finish it up. But this thing has been passed around more than a hookah in a hippie van when it comes to countries involved. Check the box or underside of your VCS though and it says MADE IN CHINA, so not sure how buying a VCS supports buying American, because it really doesn't. Supporting Atari now because they manufactured the Jaguar in the USA almost 30 years ago is completely nonsensical. Yeah, as I pointed out above, there are several. I get that you and the small handful of VCS faithful don't carry about Atari's lack of ethics, but don't act all surprised when other people do when you get on your high horse to defend them. Lol, and yet they decided to take one of the absolutely biggest risks in the video game industry - launching a platform. I guess you should have advised them not to make such a bad move. Also, those 20 people aren't game designers, coders, artists, engineers, etc. Those were the kind of people that made the Atari of old great. Not some licensing and legal guys, led by a guy who has a hard-on for blockchain or whatever other shiny object that's a fad on LinkedIn right now. The number of active people on the VCS forums that are in full support of the VCS isn't anywhere near the thousands. Most on here are deriding it. It only nabbed 11,000 pre-orders over three years(not all of them for the console, many just for the joystick, lol), which is nothing in the business world. Go ahead and tell yourself that it'll be some smashing success if it just has time, but you're going to experience some massive disappointment in the near future when it doesn't. Lol. The PS5 has sold over 10 million consoles since launch, and has popular launches like Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart (a PS5 exclusive which has already broke 1m sales) and the Spider-man game which has sold over 6.5m. Yeah, "no killer apps" 🙄 there; or the Xbox Series X also serving as the fastest selling console in Microsoft's history. Lots here for the XBX is selling pretty well. What non-timed exclusives has Atari announced for the VCS? So will I, although I don't expect you to do anything more than move the goalposts, since that's what tends to happen on these kinds of threads when talking about measuring the VCS' "success." I'll help you out though - while everyone else is selling millions or thousands of units, selling dozens or hundreds isn't what you call a success. Until then, you've got your work cut out for you to evangelize the console. The VCS is already collecting dust at stores per anecdotal reports, selling an incredible 1 unit a month at retail! I'm sure that once the Big 3 kick up their holiday releases and you have the likes of the Steam Deck, Play Date and maybe the Amico becoming available(not to mention other available systems like Evercade or existing PCs, etc. etc.), that consumers will totally come to their senses and start punching each other out in the aisles to get the hot new Ataribox so that their kids can play 40 year old Atari games and some non-exclusive indie games they've never heard of.
  3. IIRC from a thread about HS years ago(I want to say that Scott LeGrand is the one who mentioned this, but it's been a while), it was MIP Mapping.
  4. You can still revere or respect the name of Atari without resorting to being a shill for the current form. Why would any of them, living or dead, care whether or not you or anyone else buys a VCS? Pretty sure both Jobs and Wozniak (who Roots.Genoa pointed out, never was an Atari employee), made their names and fortunes over at Apple anyways, so you might as well buy everything Apple, "for their sake," whatever that means. That's not our fault, but entirely theirs for making stupid or outright unethical decisions over the course of many years. They've screwed many people out of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars over this time, because they really loathe paying people that they hire for the work that they do. Rob Wyatt, inventor of your favorite console, explicitly said that the VCS would've been better had Atari not constantly been cutting back on features for it, all because they're tightwads. You don't reward that sort of behavior by shilling for and excusing it. Don't expect me to shed a tear for them just because they happen to own the name that more ethical & competent people created 50 years ago. So right now is darker than when the company went from making billions to losing millions almost overnight and the entire industry it'd made with it came crashing down, resulting in thousands of lost jobs at them and with other companies? Or back in 1996 when the Jaguar had just failed, CEO Sam Tramiel had suffered a heart attack, the company had to be reverse merged into a small hard drive company, then later sold to a toy company? As has been hashed out over various threads here, there's nothing compelling about the VCS that's going to turn it into the incredible widespread success you've emotionally invested yourself into seeing. On the contrary, it could be a worse seller than the Jaguar, which is saying something, because an extremely small number of people on the planet care about the brand, or having a mini-PC attached to their TV so they can web browse from their console. There is no killer app for it, no incredible exclusive that people need to have that generates sales. It's already a joke among the many tech or gaming oriented personalities online (when they are bothered to remember that it exists), and the most discussion it generates comes from "hate threads" or whatever you want call threads like this one. After the holidays are over this year, chances are it'll be nothing more than an amusing footnote in gaming history. I'm sure you'll blame the haters for it's failure, but all of that is on Atari, as they're the ones that botched this from the get-go.
  5. A lot of bad info about the Panther exists online due to a lot of assumptions or incorrect information being made public around '98 or so. In recent years, a lot of that has been corrected by those who actually worked on it, such as Leonard Tramiel. Not saying that everything in these images above is inaccurate, just saying you have to be careful about your sources. A lot of hearsay has promulgated about the Panther out there - Even Curt Vendel said that some of his original quotes about the Panther that were on the Atari Museum website were completely wrong. He fixed those things when he got the right info though. Here's Leonard on the Panther, from several posts on the Atari Museum FB page. This first one was a year ago, when responding to a thread that is similar to this one, which provides both insight on the Panther development and the Jag's: Here's a comment on the much shared Panther case design, Oct. 6th, 2017. This indicates that no one should conclusively say what the Panther could do, since it was never finished: Then later in the thread he address some things about the games: Here he talks about Jeff Minter reportedly having one: Another time, he addressed the Panther being a Flare-made system: There's also this interview with Leonard where he echoes what he said about the chips and that it simply was canned in favor of the Jaguar. Either way, the best sources to rely one when doing research should be first-hand ones. Everything else should be treated with suspicion, not as though it were gospel.
  6. The trance thing is what made me fall in love with Tempest 2000. That was one of the first times I really got into the zone with a game. Also did with Dariusburst. No problem You can buy them for home, but they do charge arcade prices for it (believe it or not, this one of the cheapest brand new games you can get in the biz these days)
  7. There's a unique set of games for the VCS? That's news to me Atari did show Tempest 4000 for the VCS in their IGG video, but as of this moment, it is not officially available on the console. You have to have purchased it on Steam and run it in PC mode with Windows. As for will any more good games come out, the only recent game announcement I've noticed is Food Fight, but that will only be exclusive to the VCS for a short time, then it'll be released for everything else. Ultimately, the lack of content is what is sinking this thing. That's something us haters have pointed out many times, but it doesn't matter to those who truly believe that the VCS brings Atari "back." Speaking of that... I've lost track of how many times modern Atari has used the "Atari is back!" canard over the past several years. Here's one from 2014. Pretty sure I've seen them use it in 2017 when they announced the VCS, and a few other times too. They love that phrase like a furniture warehouse loves using going-out-of-business sales once every six months
  8. Original classics are fairly widespread still, although how many originals have survived to today is a question we'll never know the answer to. In my case, all my games are originals. Running MAME in a business like mine would probably never be "caught" by whomever polices such a thing, but I don't do that anyways. I still run into people who say that graphics don't matter. They don't to small kids and super casual gamers, who are fine with terrible looking stuff like Roblox or Minecraft. But they really do to everyone else. I think that's a big thing always driving PlayStation sales no matter what the generation, they're always talking about the graphics in that case (even though you can always get better on a PC ) Arcades these days do what's needed. While they could use RTX cards, chances are that wouldn't really make the game earn any better than without such a thing. All exA games support 4K, although nothing on the platform has really pushed it yet as they've focused more on the games/gameplay. Speaking of the exA again, here's the latest release, Rival Megagun XE. Think Twinkle Star Sprites, but you get to become a boss character to fight your opponent:
  9. The only arcade game to use a keyboard in that era was Thayer's Quest; otherwise you have stuff like Toki and Tutankhamen that have that style of logo. I've never heard of a Zork arcade machine...seems like if it really was out there, then it was someone's homebrew. Sometimes arcade ops did some weird things to make a buck, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's what it was. I have a game like that at my arcade right now - only 2 or 3 exist, as the guy who made it just created a shoot 'em up for fun. Another explanation is that it really was Tutankhamen, but the mart or the arcade operator had a thing for Zork, so printed up the marquee and slapped it in there.
  10. That has to be the most clear cut motto out of anyone else on the market at the moment. Mainly due to the "like never before" part, which means only one thing in the languages I know. That's all on Atari, although I think that most would be like yourself, going into it with the lowest of expectations. That said, when you promise consumers that they can do things like never before, is it really any wonder that some might be underwhelmed with that? I mean, unless said consumer had never played modern 3D games at the lowest graphics settings. While I get what they were aiming for, it was a really dumb slogan to go with - which is likely why they stopped using it on the VCS site and in their recent marketing. I'm amused by it, particularly by some of the twists of logic that supporters have to use to justify it's existence (such as a banned guy earlier in this thread who argued with me elsewhere that the most compelling feature that gives it a huge leg up on the competition is...the web browser. LOL). It can be annoying to be told that you aren't a true Atari fan unless you worship at the altar of the VCS and find everything that the company does is amazing and awesome. But I don't "hate" it. I only think about it when I drop by here and have a notification from one of these threads. ;)
  11. When you complain about the Tramiels, you say that it was underwhelming the whole community by over-promising, under delivering and showing up late on a bunch of products. But when it comes to the VCS, then it only applies to what you expected out of it, but since your personal expectations were low, it gets a pass. Doesn't look consistent, especially when you look at how over-promised, under delivered and late the VCS has been.
  12. Just because you might not have wanted what the 1600XL offered, or got "holographic gaming" with the Cosmos doesn't mean that others wouldn't have. The fact of the matter is that Warner set the precedent of this time honored Atari tradition. Although it's not like other companies haven't shown things off before that they didn't follow-up on or underwhelmed on. Isn't the VCS a prime example of that, when you compare the lofty things they said it would do at the get-go, compared to what it actually does? all the "six months later" videos I've found have echoed the same thing - that it's underwhelming. Why don't you hold modern Atari to the same standard that you hold the Tramiels to? Also re: "being let down by Atari management" - that started with Warner too and culminated in the crash of the whole North American game industry. It doesn't take any glasses to see that the Tramiels had nothing to do with that either.
  13. You're right, why waste my time when nothing can compare with all the warm fuzzies that the brand brings to us all. Enjoy your VCS when you get it. You're looking at the Warner Atari (and the current one) with the same glasses. Warner were the ones that promised one new console and accessory after the other, showing them off in either distribution materials and press releases, only to never release them. The Atari Cosmos, the Mindlink, the 3600, the 5100, all of the accessories for the 7800 like the laserdisc player, keyboard, high score cart, the 1450XLD, the 1600XL, the exercise bike for the 5200, the Last Starfighter arcade machine and on and on... none of that was Tramiel era. Did the Tramiels promise some things that were never delivered? Sure. No where near as much as warner did though. Modern Atari's done the same thing. How quickly people forget that they made a big deal at E3 2014 about a new line of Atari-branded gaming tablets, phones, phablets and general tablets that they were going to launch - which never came into being. Or the Gameband. Or Asteroids Outpost. Or so badly botching Minimum that it became a product that people paid for and is permanently unplayable. Yep, modern Atari totally doesn't do the thing you always harp on the Tramiels for doing. 🙄
  14. It's no more expensive to develop for than any other PC platform. From their System page: Funny you mention that; While such a thing has been a big deal in Japan for many years, the US is now getting into that. Injustice Arcade and Minecraft Dungeons Arcade both offer such a thing. Here's my Minecraft that I just got a month ago; shows the cards starting at 2:50; shows them being dispensed at 10:09. The cards are used to place equipment into the game. An achievements card like you mention would be a great idea though. I'll also comment on your other points here. Part of the problem with difficulty is figuring out what customers want. In the early 80's, Atari found that if games were too easy, then people wouldn't play them. But then they made stuff like Gravitar which was balls-to-the-wall hard and for whatever reason some of that difficulty stuff stuck for a long time. Modern arcades though follow the mantra "skill kills." I've heard them say that multiple times, including Eugene Jarvis. This has made almost every modern game much more casualized than they used to be. One exception is the exA, where you have to have some skill to enjoy a lot of the games. The Minecraft game above isn't very tough, although it doesn't have the depth of Gauntlet or Gauntlet Legends either. On emulation and consoles, there's this notion that retro gaming is super hot right now, but not at arcades, just at home. Most of my classics only make a few bucks a week. The worst ones manage to rake in less than $50 a year. The only stuff that does ok is Ms. Pac-Man or Street Fighter II. I can't pay my bills with the classics - they're just filler, sadly. This is because you can play all that stuff quite easily on just about anything with a screen these days, and it's not like everyone is always playing Space Invaders on a daily basis anyways. No, arcades don't compete in graphics, but despite "the gamer thing to say" which is "graphics don't matter," I've found that they really do, at least in an arcade setting. I've picked up a number of indie games over the years - these are almost always duds that barely get played. They're very fun games, but because they look old, 95% of players pass them up. Of course, then they tend to require a little more skill than an endless runner, so those that do play them don't take the time to learn how the game plays and come back for more. Two examples of this for me are Cosmotrons and Deathstalker. So where can they compete? If not cards, then by using the cabinets & controls. A light-gun game or a racer make up the top 3 games I see every week. The racers in particular draw a lot of attention, thanks to the realistic controls, licensed cars, etc. Some light-gun games like The Walking Dead give you crossbows to use. Pinball is just...pinball. That almost never does well when setup as a virtual pin in an arcade environment. For socializing - sure, when life changes so does your social network. As a married adult, I've maybe seen my friends from school days once or twice a year. But do I still get kids & teens socializing at my arcades? Yup, every day. Adults, they're usually on a date, or with their kids or grandkids depending. This can keep things plenty busy, although I wouldn't complain about it being busier.
  15. Sorry GS, but I don't see it. The primary thing that the two share in common is a love of lawsuits and a logo; That's about where it ends. Granted, we don't know how the Tramiel marketing would have been in an age of social media, but it's hard to believe that it could be any more incompetent or cringeworthy as the PR companies that Atari has used in recent years. "What's your high score on Pong, fellow kids?" The Tramiels employed both hardware and software designers in-house with some 3rd party support, while modern Atari has relied entirely on 3rd parties to figure something out with the IP that they have. Granted the Lynx and Jaguar were created by 3rd parties, but at least the Tramiels paid them for the work, while modern Atari has turned stiffing their "partners" on payments into something of an art form. Whether that was Curt Vendel's Legacy Engineering, Human Head Studios, Feargal Mac, Rob Wyatt, the list goes on and on. Also should be noted that the Tramiels would have released the 7800 in 1984, but Warner being assholes over the payments to GCC are what resulted in that delay, not the Tramiels. Of course, you could fault the Tramiels for skimping on things like the High Scort Cart, keyboard and stuff like 512k carts, but it wasn't their fault for the delayed release in that regard. As for comparing the little support of the classic Ataris to the VCS - at least you can name original, exclusive games for every single classic Atari platform. Months after the backer & retail releases, there still isn't a single real exclusive for the VCS, nothing to truly make it stand out from other Atari systems, or make for a "# games that defined the Atari VCS" YouTube video. Even the 5200, which was basically just an arcade port harem, had Countermeasure, Gremlins and the only home port of Space Dungeon. It would have had more original exclusives if it's lifespan had gone on just a little longer, like Meebzork, Spitfire, Xari Arena, Black Belt, etc. Did the Tramiels take money from customers first, then string them along for almost 4 years to deliver the Jaguar or the Lynx? Did they lie about interviews that they had with professional journalists? Did they show in those interviews that they didn't have a clue about what their own hardware was supposed to do? Not that I recall. Imagine if Jack or Leonard were as clueless in this interview below as Michael Artz was with The Register in the interview above. That'd have probably ended Atari right then and there. Any "hate" that modern Atari has garnered for the brand or for the VCS they brought on themselves through their own actions. That doesn't mean it changes how anyone has to feel about the classic systems, but also doesn't mean you need to give blind loyalty to the people running the show right now either. Feels somewhat like the NUON. That had 1 game for it at launch, took 9 months before the first real batch of games came along for it. At least the VCS has more than that going for it like PC mode, but then again, most NUON games at the time couldn't be played anywhere else and it worked as a great DVD player so you had all of that content to use. Hardware needs the momentum of content to stay afloat. I'd be surprised if there isn't some discount on it by the time Christmas hits; If not then we'll certainly get that after the holidays. That still won't save it though.
  16. Back to the original OP instead of retreading the same waste-of-time-back-and-forth that has been going on for years now. Both of these guys are VCS fans, not "haters." Both mention that there isn't a lot of content that's been added. Keyword: "Underwhelming." Also looks like it just sat there for a while collecting dust for him, since he had to update everything. Paraphrase: "They are going to need to do a lot of work in the next six months to prove to others that it's worth it." "I don't love it, I don't hate it, I'm in the middle." Already saying that the price has to come down, which is also what the commentors are echoing.
  17. Vritra is available on Steam, but the exA version is the best/ultimate director's cut. It's a fantastic game - has many elements of Dariusburst, looks awesome and plays well. Since a big majority of the serious gamers stopped going to arcades around the end of the 90s, this threw them into what we have now. 😕 If no one played the ticket games, then it would be a different world. Unfortunately, something like the Big Bass Wheel still makes $2000/wk+ in the right location, while video games are lucky to make $700/wk at the same location. That makes for a no-brainer to the arcade owner. What excites me about the exA is that it is really the only shot we have going on right now to bring so many genres back to arcades, but it'll take gamers coming out and playing the games when they find them to
  18. There are a number of STG collectors that have picked one up, but at the end of the day, they're making this first for operators instead of trying to do a high end console. While that can suck for collectors who don't want to spend a few/several grand, they're trying to bring hardcore gaming back to the arcade, and more places are picking one up now that it has a cabinet for it. With time, hopefully you could find one near you! Currently I know of exA's in Utah (my own ), Wisconsin, New York, Florida, Texas and California. That'll certainly grow as more titles are announced. On shmups though, it hasn't done too great with those at my location. Most players are so casual these days, expecting the ease of a single-button ticket game, that the thought of a bullet hell shooter throws them for a loop. It sucks as I've had people approach the machine with interest, but they don't give it a chance or realize how awesome the games are My personal favorite on it is Vritra. This one just got a major software update, I'm just waiting on it's return in the mail to check it out, but here's a playthrough I did of it a while back.
  19. Uh huh. It was such a disaster that a lot of the professional reviewers gave it...high marks. Odd thing for EGM to say about the disastrous controls too: I never said it should have been the only game on the system, but you're lacking sense yourself if you think that it wouldn't have made any difference to have a big name AAA title on console at launch, as opposed to a no-name crappy shooter and a 3D pod collecting marathon. 🙄
  20. AvP2 was slated for the CD, so while that might have helped CD unit sales, it's hard to say if it would have really moved both new base units & CD ones to the tune that Atari needed. Of course, if the JagDuo had come around, then AvP2 as a pack-in would've been a great buy. Although if BI/WN had come out and was able to live up to it's promises, I think that would've really helped the CD, possibly the system itself to some degree.
  21. I think you misunderstood my comment - we're in agreement there I was just saying that I've seen many comment over the years that they thought that those games wouldn't have made much of a difference for Atari's fortunes. I'm in agreement with you that they would have helped, but how many units it might have help move is something we'll never know. Timing is also important on when these ports would appear. Atari needed stuff that could sell systems. They had that to a degree with AvP and a lesser one on T2k. But in the case of the PS1 and other systems, most people bought those consoles for other games, then having MK or SSF was a nice addition and easy to add to the collection. Rayman was originally supposed to be an exclusive, then I think it turned to timed, then it came out on the PS1 first, or something along those lines. Unfortunately for Atari, devs knew by 1995 that the console was a flop, so why bother with exclusives if they had a big money-printing game? Now if Atari had managed to get the first or second MK on as a 1993 launch title, that'd have made some waves.
  22. Are you sure? I mean Food Fight has two super popular things in the name - people love food and they love fighting. Combine that with a few months exclusivity and a built-in web browser, I don't see how there won't be a VCS installed into every home in the world by Christmas 2022!
  23. That's why I initially said that it was more about the games, particularly the first generation, since that set the expectations for the system. Although I've seen many over the years say something like SSF2 or MK wouldn't have made much of a difference - maybe not a huge difference since those games were on just about everything, but it certainly would have helped. Every bit of 3rd party support, particularly of the AAA kind of that era would have given the system a boost. Certainly a bigger boost than ports of no-name stuff like Brutal Sports Football. There was a proposed AvP2 for the Jaguar CD, but pretty sure it never made it very far past the paper stage. Yeah, that easily could have been the Jag's Golden Axe: Revenge of Death Adder (assuming that had it been finished they didn't botch it somehow). That, Deathwatch, Phear...all would have been great additions. Don't know that they would have saved the system, but I'd have taken those over Double Dragon 5 or White Men Can't Jump.
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