TailChao
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Posts posted by TailChao
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21 hours ago, Trebor said:Damn that Misery the Inconvenient, he's at it again!
Hah, he's been super productive this whole year but it's still quality work - only the finest disorder.
What a guy!
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10 hours ago, NostAlgae37 said:Hey @TailChao, I was one of the earliest purchasers of Rikki & Vikki for the 7800, and my copy came with the old style silver cartridge labels. What does one have to do to acquire one of the new silver labels that came with the later pressings of the game? Thanks.
If you're comfortable replacing the label yourself, send me a PM and we'll work something out. Just keep in mind that if you damage the cartridge, leave bubbles under the label adhesive, etc - none of this is under warranty.
If you'd like to have the label swapped for you, it'll unfortunately have to wait for a bit. There's too much entropy in my schedule right now.
37 minutes ago, Crazy Climber said:What do the old labels look like?
The artwork is the same, but instead of a foil backing (as in the newer labels) it's just a grey color.
You can read more about it here, but in summary I wasn't satisfied that we weren't able to get the silver spot color Atari used on the cartridge labels - especially since we got it on the game box. So I got tests from different print shops, one of which recommended trying the foil backing (as your copy has) which I think is way better! However, the cartridge's label will not affect the performance of the software inside it
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One last emulator accuracy PSA - BupSystem is extremely rude when it comes to memory initialization. Any RAM on the cartridge will not be cleared for you, and if you're not running the Atari supplied Boot ROM / BIOS the 7800's internal memory will not be cleared either. It'll also return garbage (or moreso an attempt to replicate open bus) if you try to read from an unused region of memory. These two behaviors contribute to a large number of the compatibility issues I've seen, especially as some flash cartridges will do a friendly initialization. Maria's timing is probably off in certain places, too.
As always, the actual hardware is best with A7800 a close second as it's both pretty solid and being actively maintained. I recommend BupSystem if you're using any of my weird mapper designs or Windows 95.
Anyway, as you were. Keep up the good work!
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20 minutes ago, Theallknowingsause said:What console do you think killed it?
I think the Dreamcast but the spirit of each console having different looking graphics continued with portable consoles up into the early 2010's imo
I wouldn't say a certain console killed it - but Dreamcast, PlayStation 2, GameCube, and XBOX were where things started to even out for me. Don't get me wrong, there were still visual tells on which hardware a game was running on (especially if you look for aliasing). There were just far less than in the previous hardware generation.
With portables, yeah I totally agree.
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34 minutes ago, Turbo Laser Lynx said:It looks really nice, got to check it out. ^^
Hah, I was going for something both obscure and with little reason to play... but I guess the charm of Apple ][ graphics still won out.
37 minutes ago, Turbo Laser Lynx said:Yeah, that's why I love the 8-bit systems / "8-bit era" the most, they're so unique. You can easily for example spot an Atari 2600 game, a C64 game or a ZX Spectrum game a mile away, even if you only have screenshots, because of their restricted (many times crazy) palettes, wide pixels and other graphics restrictions. That already gets more tricky in the 16-bit era even when you know the graphics restrictions of e.g. Amiga, Megadrive, Snes (although I love the 16-bit era too). Of course when you add sound and the hardware they're all kind of unique, but there's also the matter of clarity in design, "less is more" that's kind of enforced on 8-bitters.<3
Right, and even if two platforms were released in the same year they can give completely different aesthetics. I do think this continued through to the late 1990s, it just became less and less prominent as you described.
...oh right, 31 Copies left.
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With regard to switching modes within a scanline (in this case 160A <-> 160B), you also have to switch back. If whatever you're designing has an arbitrary screen layout which could easily have too many objects per line - it might be a good idea to try layered draws instead. This reduces the amount of "safety mode sets" you'll need sprinkled around the rest of your Display List.
But I'm not 100% sure of what you're working on or what 7800basic does under the hood, so you might be able to ignore all that entirely!
On 9/14/2020 at 2:30 PM, SmittyB said:At this point it seems it would be better if ProSystem quietly disappeared from the internet because it's just not up to the standards of other emulators and from what I've heard includes a number of bodge fixes to get even the original retail releases working properly. JS7800 is based on it but doesn't have a lot of the same problems fortunately.
That would be nice - but ProSystem has been in use for so long that nudging current or new users towards anything else will require pulling several (possibly all) teeth. Until A7800 is the first result on a Google search for "Atari 7800 Emulator" and / or listed in the Wikipedia article we're pretty much stuck with it.
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On 9/17/2020 at 2:23 AM, Turbo Laser Lynx said:Haha!
Funniest thing yesterday is that as I'm looking out the window I see a fox trip along in the back yard! (I've very rarely seen them at all). I was screaming to the kids "A fox! A fox!" My computer club friend asked if it was a sign to buy Rikki & Vikki, I said I already did. I put some other retro stuff into circulation and got myself an Atari 7800 now too, woohoo!
Hmm, that friendly spirit animal may have intended that you seek out some other game on ancient hardware featuring foxes...
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...or maybe not.
But that 7800 definitely needs two controllers!
On 9/17/2020 at 2:23 AM, Turbo Laser Lynx said:Seven colors in hi-res is pretty great for an early-ish 8-bit system, but anyways I've come to realise that tech specs are secondary (although they're interesting) and "feeling is everything" when it comes to retro computing / gaming (at least for me). I've been reading about the various 7800 restrictions, and it seems like a really intriguing machine with much potential. Rikki & Vikki is obviously a good example of what's possible on it, if love and dedication is put into a game. I wouldn't have the patience to understand all the details properly so I'm happy 7800basic excists.
Anything designed this far back has its architecture tightly woven with whatever aesthetics you'll be able get out of it, so they go together. But yeah - I think the 7800 still has a huge amount of unexplored potential in how to stylize graphics using Maria's various modes and playing to her strengths. 320A and 320B are most interesting to me, but something like Kero Blaster could translate well to 160A.
Plenty of things to try, and yes - having 7800basic available is a huge plus.
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On 9/13/2020 at 12:07 PM, wongojack said:After playing for about 3 hours or so, I kinda want to discuss gameplay, but this doesn't seem like the thread to do it. Maybe I'll start another . . .
You can also write a full review on the case of an NEC PC-8801 VA3 and send it to the PenguiNet P.O. Box - I'd definitely read it! Of course, any thread is fine including this one
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On 9/13/2020 at 4:15 PM, Turbo Laser Lynx said:That's nice! Yeah it's a far away corner of the earth, Snufkin will bring it to me next spring when he returns from his travels and I wake up from my winter hibernation.
My inner Fillyjonk checked the address several times, stuck a PLE on the box, then cleaned the entire house because some fibers from the cardboard may have gotten loose and could still be floating somewhere in the air and I don't know if they're going to land on the table and I had just wiped that down because who knows when guests might show up and... oh goodness this is exhausting, I need to lie down.
If Snufkin doesn't get the package, the post obviously isn't following code.
On 9/13/2020 at 4:15 PM, Turbo Laser Lynx said:Btw. I checked up Mode 320B on randomterrain, and it says three colours + transparent, but I se four colors + transparent in all the R&V screenshots. Also I don't understand, it says characters should be 4 pixels wide in 320B, but R&V doesn't seem to have double vide pixels? 🤔
Mode 320B uses two palettes of three colors + a transparent / backdrop color, so there's a total of seven colors. Some objects (particularly the characters) in Rikki & Vikki use two textures rendered on top of each other which gives the illusion of more colors per palette. This is fairly common in other platforms like the NES, GameBoy Color, and Neo Geo Pocket Color to get around their 2bpp sprite / tile limitations.
Generally though, the 7800's high resolution modes come with lots of asterisks in regard to what can be used where. So while they can look really crisp they're also somewhat convoluted to use.
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18 hours ago, Turbo Laser Lynx said:I ordered Rikki & Vikki tonight, woohoo! 🥳 but then I got a bit worried about the shipping from the U.S. Has anyone ordered this to Europe lately? Obviously I'm ready to wait for something this good a long time, but I don't want to loose it completely.We (very fortunately) haven't lost a single order yet. There's been one or two which got stuck and then arrived after a significant delay, or were bounced back to our P.O. Box. - but they've all arrived eventually. However, yours is the first one heading to Moominvalley so I'm not sure what varieties of mischief could happen along the way.
18 hours ago, Turbo Laser Lynx said:I didn't know anything about the Atari 7800 but now I will have to get one when I can get the money needed. Actually it's always a lot of fun studying a new retro system. I'm looking to understand the most common graphic modes of it too. Really beautiful hi-res graphics in Rikki & Vikki, I didn't manage to read through the whole thread yet, but I'd definitely be interested to know what kind of graphics tricks were used or if it was straight up a predifned mode on the A7800.Rikki & Vikki runs entirely in Mode 320B, which is one of Maria's stock configurations. The differentiating factor is that it's the first released title on the hardware which separates Maria and Sally's paging through the use of a new mapper. This greatly simplifies resource management and allows for a much larger quantity of textures to be used onscreen, which is essential for the high resolution modes. It's comparable to what Nintendo was doing with the NES's MMC1, MMC3, etc.
There's not too many "tricks" used, we had to ship by a certain day and this limited the amount of experimentation or crazy effects - I'd describe the visuals moreso as being careful with what we could afford.
...ah, and 33 Copies left.
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In the consoles I've seen this is usually C4 and C5 (820pF) failing, L2 drifting out of tune, or both. All of these are near the RF Modulator in the top left of the board, and you can adjust L2 using a 5/64" Allen Wrench.
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10 hours ago, batari said:Frankly, I am kind of shocked at how much these POKEY replacements go for. HOKEY has always targeted a much lower price point than any other POKEY replacement. I suppose I should actually finish the damn thing, as clearly there is demand.
For what they're targeting (high accuracy replacement of the original component), the prices are very reasonable. But yeah, it's absolutely bonkers to use these as a sound generator in hundreds of cartridges - especially considering what else is available for far less (YM2413, YX5200, SoftSynth, etc).
10 hours ago, batari said:Good news about HOKEY (if I ever DO finish it!) is that it is microcontroller-based like BupChip, not CPLD/FGPA-based like other POKEY replacement devices, which could potentially mean that BupChip code could be ported and licensed on the hardware. It's just a thought I had, and I have no clue if it would even be possible!
Sure, and you could adapt any number of other SoftSynths or write an entirely new one - and if that's portable then it's easy to add support for it to emulators. In my opinion that's the real perk of using a microcontroller. There's nothing inherently wrong with using a CPLD or FPGA for audio generation, but unless you're cramming a lot of other functionality into it (i.e. highly complex EverDrive style features) then it will be far too expensive for what you get back.
With regards to licensing, BupBoop is all zlib so there's basically zero requirements
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On 9/3/2020 at 1:41 PM, batari said:Kind of. It's an internal output, but R/W is one of the inputs that can affect it.
Ah, okay - the gap around the pulse makes more sense then. But yeah R/W, PHI2, and HALTn were the signals that always had me really anxious. Nice work!
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Right, and from continued observation you'll never get any adoption of a NewThingTM unless it fits into the following workflow exactly...
- Build in 7800basic.
- Push to AtariAge Store.
...which is completely fine, but I'm not taking on that responsibility.
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Welp, this has been quite a BupChip bump day.
Lemme see what I can do here...
8 minutes ago, RevEng said:There's a bit of adoption-friction that has stopped this from progressing in the AA 7800 dev community... First, I'm not that clear on the hardware production side, being mostly a software guy. I know you published some info - is the design open and all there? To produce the boards, would someone who is used to producing boards with eproms and basic bankswitch plds need to invest in new tools? (obviously the MC would also need to be programmed, but is there anything else?) Are there surface mount components required on the boards?
The software synthesizer is available under zlib along with the mapper verilog.
Regarding the boards, there's some good photos available here - aside from the volume knob and one capacitor everything is surface mount. I'm not going to lie, both Tiido and I are very very very hardware oriented. But he made 600 boards, pick 'n placed by hand, and soldered on a hot plate (which is also why all the components are on one side). Should you have to do all this? No, absolutely not - I was hoping if there was any adoption it would allow Tiido to manufacture boards to satisfy that. We didn't distribute the board gerbers, but the published information was really enough to duplicate everything and my inbox is / was open.
Out of all the components, the only one which wasn't programmable in circuit was the CPLD holding SOUPER. Both the 512KB Flash and BupChip were programmable from the card edges on the bottom and right, respectively. Again - designed for scale.
What isn't available is the branch of BupBoop for the Fujitsu FM-3, which is because...
- I wanted to first update the software with improvements based upon our holdups while developing Rikki & Vikki.
- We were using IAR rather than something like GCC-ARM, and there's a big licensing cost here.
- Aside from rendering in 10-Bit Mono, the BupBoop / CoreTone implementation is identical to the Windows version.
- I ran out of charity development time / energy / money / don't care anymore.
8 minutes ago, RevEng said:Second, are there any programming docs with some sample code?
It may seem to you like the answers for the first and second points obvious and stated, or otherwise implicit, but consider I have skimmed your docs when you released bupchip info, but I still have these questions.
So the protocol between Sally and the BupChip is covered in BupSystem's HTML Help in the Cartridges -> SOUPER section, and the BupBoop 1.2.2cz kit includes a few demonstrations of writing in the SASS language. There's also a MID2SASS converter available which can yank the notes out of a Standard MIDI, and @RushJet1 wrote a toolchain around converting Famitracker to SASS - which isn't publicly available but should give an idea of where we were eventually going with this stuff.
I'm not going to deny the steep learning curve, but everything required to start writing music is available.
8 minutes ago, RevEng said:Third point. I'm not even sure where I'd start with the bupchip spec in emulation, especially since the microcontroller programming might be fluid. There's bupsystem, but even there the micro emulation is limited to the R&V design. If we cement the micro programming in place for a general standard, and let anybody who wants to go off the rails deal with the fallout, it would be better.
That was already the intent with how the software was implemented - nothing is tied to a particular microcontroller or hardware implementation other than using SOUPER as an intermediary to send commands to the BupChip. If you look at what data are actually consumed - it's just the samples, instruments, and music tracks. Everything else is "whatever" in case we wanted to switch chip manufacturers.
8 minutes ago, RevEng said:Fourth point is semi-related to the third. I implement a game using this system, then I will only have testers who run bupsystem, rather than folks who can run on real hardware. If I need to test it on real hardware, and I personally will for anything in 7800basic, then I will need to purchase the boards and programming gear myself. The flash carts in development will never target this spec, even if was possible, because no legally-free rom is available. (catch 22)
Sure, and the few who were interested had to get development boards from us. Which are basically the same as our production boards except the NOR Flash is DIP + Socketed and the BupChip is coupled with an FTDI Serial <-> USB thingy so you can use the diagnostic shell.
8 minutes ago, RevEng said:My 2 cent analysis. None of this is meant to be critical in the slightest. I think you've done something amazing here, but I think community adoption will take even more work, or at least reaching out to others that will do that extra work. If you don't have an interest in the extra work-for-free, that's cool too.
Oh, no no no - nothing was expected, at all.
My hope was moreso that there'd be interest in the mapper tech and that'd start some sort of dialogue, then we'd use feedback to develop a better version and improve the audio toolchain for easier use. That's what PMC1 was supposed to be.
But yes, at this point I cannot work for free and what we've given away is enough for someone else to run with the idea if they'd like to.
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16 hours ago, aaron1677 said:I don't understand why the BupChip is not THE defacto sound chip for the 7800. Rikki and Vikki has the best audio I've ever heard produced on the ProSystem!
My understanding is that most developers are already invested in Pokey. Migrating between sound chips requires learning a whole new set of tools, etc. - it's not trivial. Support for it in emulators is also still limited to BupSystem.
I wholly credit @RushJet1's talent and dedication for the quality of Rikki & Vikki's soundtrack rather than the BupChip's capabilities. We could have stuck something like a YX5200 on each cartridge to play back WAVs or MP3s - but he put the time in to learn our weirdass toolchain and apply some of the cool tricks used in more limited sound generators to a sampler.
12 hours ago, Jinks said:What would the bupchip and supporting cart hardware cost to make per board?
Has anyone even considered this chip?
I think cost was already covered in this BupChip topic, but it's around $4 - $5 per unit in quantity. You also have to program the microcontroller, but this doesn't add too much time if your rig is designed for it (ours was). The only inquiries we've gotten about any of the hardware developed for Rikki & Vikki or theoretical future stuff have been from a handful of developers from outside this community.
Addendum : But if we're gonna talk BupChip it should probably continue here, rather than clogging up a portfolio.
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Wait... so which signal had the nasty edge there?
Was it R/W?
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2 hours ago, davidcalgary29 said:How about getting some (one?) of the Dev team to sign 10 copies (to be distributed randomly) in the last lot to get them to move more quickly?
I agree with @Hastor's outlook here. This doesn't really have meaning unless I can get signatures from the whole team, which is scattered across the United States and Tiido is in Estonia - It'd take multiple weeks just to get the signatures. Plus, some people won't want any sharpie scribbles on their box. I already had enough reservations about changing the label style during the run and think this sort of thing should be reserved for special or collector's editions - which we don't have anyway.
But I have been seeing requests for this sort of thing, or a fancy version in general, so it's definitely in the back of my head for whenever another game happens.
20 minutes ago, Jinks said:I do not think they will have trouble "moving" the last copies..
Getting rid of them faster is nicer for me - pack 'n ship can eat a good chunk of the day. But yeah, I'm not really worried about it.
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16 hours ago, hizzy said:Are the Steam & 7800 versions identical? Thanks!
The differences are in price and aesthetic, the game content is identical.
Below is a full list from the thread's F.A.Q...
On 12/11/2018 at 9:20 AM, TailChao said:Q : What are the differences between the Microsoft Windows and Atari 7800 versions?
A : They're mostly in price and aesthetic, the game content is identical. Here's a rundown-
Microsoft Windows
- Costs $9.99.
- Progress and High Scores are saved.
- Music is in Stereo.
- Supports Steam Achievements.
- Supports Performance Adjustments.
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Atari 7800 ProSystem
- Costs $59.99 plus shipping.
- Includes a sturdy box, cartridge, and Misery Land tour guide with two complimentary tickets.
- Progress and High Scores aren't saved.
- Music is in Mono.
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Microsoft Windows
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47 minutes ago, A Black Falcon said:There is one problem though, I bought a copy of this game recently and I would say that I'm very glad to get this quite interesting-looking title before copies run out, but... it doesn't work at all, it boots to a black screen and stays that way.
Any issues like this call for activation of the warranty card's secret powers, please send an inquiry via email to our support address. You'll have the option for a refund if we're unable to get the game to work on your console, but we've yet to meet a 7800 that can't be coaxed into running it!
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Another terrible loss in this incredibly awful year.
RIP.
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Maria won't exactly mask a pending IRQ, but rather she fully halts Sally during rendering. As long as whatever device is triggering the IRQ will hold IRQn low until acknowledged, Sally can deal with it whenever rendering is over.
Regarding sample playback, a small FIFO is a good idea and wouldn't use too many gates. Sally could get an optional IRQ when it's empty, or near empty, and then copy in more sample data when it's convenient for her. I see a small crystal on the board - if it could be clocked by this (with a programmable rate using a phase accumulator), then you don't have to deal with PHI2 wobbling.
But again - if you're all continuously going down this route I recommend working together to spec out a new community standard for audio hardware on a CPLD or FPGA rather than it going in a thousand different directions on every new utterance of a flash card or expansion device.
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On 8/29/2020 at 9:05 AM, MrBeefy said:Make sure you plug your other projects.
Sure, if they're Atari related I'll drop them off here. For everything else, there's
MasterCardTwitter.39 Copies left.
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On 8/24/2020 at 1:45 PM, davidcalgary29 said:The carrying costs would be huge, though, and it's very unfair to ask someone to do that. I can see some smart person doing a Limited Edition with a Rikki & Vikki lunchbox (just slap a sticker on standard plastic box) with two 3D rprinted action figures, boxed game, and a t-shirt of their choice, selling in the range of $150, but that's YEARS away from reality. After this run sells out, there's got to be a good, long period of sustained whining about why "only" 500 copies were made, and how unfair life is, before a side project like that would be feasible.
Ah, but we've already sold "only" 500 copies of the 7800 version - I shipped out the 504th an hour ago. The number made available to customers was 550 copies with extras for staff, press, and warranty replacements.
But yes, the issue with putting together more copies is the upfront cost of getting more boards and plastics made. We didn't toss out any of the designs (and most importantly still have the molds) but they need to be built in quantity. I've covered this a few times in the thread, but I'd like to manufacture more copies as long as there's demand - although after this run has sold out I'm stepping away from the scene out of necessity, so it's the usual "no promises" for now.
17 hours ago, Shawn said:When this game has sold out it's 500 copies there will be future "new" 7800 users who will have really missed out. That or have to pay out the ass for a copy on the secondary market. If anyone was on the fence about this title just buy it now before you end up having to pay someone double or triple the retail price in the future. We all know that is exactly what's gonna end up happening when it's sold out.
Yeah, they'll have to buy the digital version instead
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The merchandise can be lucrative, yeah. But as with most things - if you're going to do it well it needs way more financial backing than usually expected.
4 minutes ago, Hastor said:You also have to be careful with plushes, though it sounds like TailChao knew some people they could likely depend on.
Unless the game sold in the hundreds of thousands we wouldn't do more than a handful of one-off plushes. Mostly the main characters, or just Dut who is by far the most plush-able. A good designer's time isn't free (and rightly shouldn't be), and making sure all of these can be manufactured at scale (at quality) is very difficult.
Also if we made a bunch of swag and the game still flopped I don't want to be stuck with thousands of plushes crammed into every closet, cabinet, and shoved under every sink - no thanks.
3 minutes ago, davidcalgary29 said:Yes, I can definitely see that, which is why 3D printed objects would be (have been) the way to go. I'm not sure how feasible it is to cheaply print up multicoloured objects, but even single colours would be quite cool. Also: I want to buy a Rikki & Vikki t-shirt (and two for the kids, too!). Someone sell (licensed products only, please) these to me.
I mean, it's all way out of scope at this point. But from prior experience making figures - if it's not supposed to be articulated you can get better results by just doing a sculpt and making casts without any 3D printer or other gizmos.
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FS / FT : Atari 800 with Incognito + Extras
in Buy, Sell, and Trade
Posted · Edited by TailChao
It's time to ditch my excess gadgets, so let's get started with this lot...
Up for sale or trade is an Atari 800 with an Incognito Card, Atari 1050 Disk Drive, TAC-2 Joystick, and some cartridges. I was originally using this for software development but no longer have a need for it. Below is a full inventory, I'm not willing to separate any of these items - you'll have to take the whole lot.
The computer works fine, when I did the Incognito install I opted to leave out the disk access light. If you'd like to restore it to a stock 800 all the cards are there. I removed both screws which held down the 800's lid since I kept opening this to get at the Incognito - no idea where they went. I no longer have an S-Video cable, but when I did the quality was great after the leveling fix.
The 1050 doesn't include an SIO cable, so I couldn't test it - but the condition is pristine.
Both power bricks appear to be okay.
But more importantly, does it play the best game?
...yes it does. Gonna miss that one.
Hey, more photos!
I'm looking for $200.00 + Shipping for all of this. While I'm fine with just cash, I also like to trade for other e-waste that I'll use! Here's some items I'm looking for which could possibly reduce or remove the price of the unit entirely...
I'm happy to ship this anywhere in North America, just be aware that I'll have to separate it into two boxes (one for the computer, one for the rest) since I don't want these to get damaged in transit. If you're interested, send over a PM!