The computer you always wanted to build..

[The computer you always wanted to build..]

4 hours ago, zzip said:

In the end,  I don't think the Pentium Pro really took off, did it?   Pentium-2's weren't too far behind.

It did not.. It didn't have consumer-marketing behind it. And it ran 8/16-bit code slower than the Pentium., clock for clock.

 

P-II had a huge consumer push with the all-then-important MMX. And it was affordable at $775 introductory price. I was smart and waited till first drop, and paid $655 for it!

 

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As for my own want..   When I was building my first PC,  my friend sold me on the idea of a 486DX-50 because while other 486's were chugging along with a 33mhz or even 25mhz bus, it had a massive 50mhz bus.   I didn't know about the instability problems on a 50mhz bus, his DX-50 seemed stable enough.  Besides in those days, we took computer crashes for granted because they were much more common.

I thought about getting the DX-50. But the EISA system I was eyeing from Gateway 2000 was too expensive at $3,200. I had to settle for the DX-2/50 at about $2,200 give or take.

 

Either way I was thoroughly impressed and blown away by the article I read in Byte about clock-doubling. Never heard such an idea. This was sophisticated stuff. And since most of my uses back then didn't involve continual disk-access the slower bus wouldn't bother me. 25MHz was tons faster than the Amiga & Apple II I was beating on at the time. https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1992-05

[Why can't you purchase roms for new games??]

2 hours ago, Jstick said:

I'm sure you mean digital collection of (originally physical) goods dating from that period, right?

Mostly yes. And a good thing too because some of my floppies are rotted out.

 

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Otherwise, I'd be very curious as to what digital goods were available in the mid-'70s.

In the early BBS era there were some select downloadable upgrades or binary patches for 3rd-party Apple II software. Novation Com-Ware was one. BBS doors and modules and the next version (of BBS software) was another.

 

Anyhow..that predated the PC shareware craze by a good 5 years at least.

 

But for-sale digital goods as we know them today. Pay online and then download or stream? I don't recall any.

[Why can't you purchase roms for new games??]

I have my own collection of digital goods dating back to the mid and late 1970's. It's the only one of its kind in the world. Pretty sure of that.

 

And while it may mean little or nothing to someone else, it sure means a lot to me.

[The computer you always wanted to build..]

The computer you always wanted to build but didn't.

 

Not long after the Pentium became popular there was the PentiumPro. I was totally taken with the magical idea of out-of-order execution, and thought it the epitome of "anything computers". It was the mid-late 1990's and I was still beating a 486, overloading the cardcage, hooking up 3 hard disks, and doublespacing them into like 9 drives. All the while dreaming about building a super-uber mathematical graphics powerhouse around the PentiumPro. 200MHz was unheard of and the chip itself was monstersized. It even had onboard cache and a real FPU.

 

I spent weeks and months collecting the specs and diagrams and datasheets. Adding up the prices to a towering $4000+ or more. 256MB RAM an incredible 4MB graphics board, new PCI bus.. The VS440FX motherboard - solid, intel, conservative.

 

Alas this computer never saw the light of day, not even in present times. I have most all the parts and such, but just never assembled it. In the very late 90's I did build a Pentium II 266MHz, which was better spec'd and w/MMX too. Since I've got the parts for the P-Pro machine I still occasionally look fondly on it and always wonder if it would have become a nostalgic machine I'd have treasured today, like my original 486. Tough to say.

 

So what system(s) did you always want to build out but never did?

 

[Why can't you purchase roms for new games??]

30 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

For instance, I wanted to get a copy of that new Audacity game, but I go to the site, and it's not working, oh and you need a Paypal account,which I don't deal with anymore due to their nightmare customer service and several times them refusing to stop unauthorized charges to my card.  Really?  In 2021, you don't have even one alternative payment processor?  AND I have to sign up for an account on your website to boot?  This is an awful lot of hoop jumping for a product you ostensibly actually want me to buy.

It is, a lot of hoop jumping.. Too much for any of these renaissance games. So much other material readily available.

[480-in-1 cartridge getting hot]

480 games takes a LOT of power to run. Not surprised!

[Interest check: Applied Engineering Z-80 Plus card with CP/M disks, manual, and box]

Anything including and past rev K is the better board.

[Atari Video Music on eBay]

These days I'd expect it to top $800 or more if we can get a proper bidding war going.

 

[Looking for a specific book of BASIC games]

What's the title then? Was it a kilobaud publication?

[Current preferred solution for archiving 5.25" disks?]

Emulation of the MacOS.. I've not heard of anyone (first-hand) getting Applesauce going that way. The internet has anecdotal information saying so, but that's worlds apart from doing it for real.

 

 

[Math FPU]

Yes I can see that.

 

These days I'm not really a purist or datecode chaser. I'm interested in capturing the experience like I had back in the day and bringing it forward - sometimes with reliability enhancements and perhaps in altogether new formfactors via emulation on SFF PC. Like the childhood dream of an All-In-One machine.

 

The TurboChameleon cart would have interested me back in the day. But not so much today. BITD my buddies and I would've been looking for ways to practically use it to bring the platform into the modern era. Today I just use modern hardware and enjoy my Apple II (and other vintage material) for what it is.

 

On FPGA. Yes I believe they will be necessary at some point and integral to keeping the old machines in working order. Especially for replacement parts. For daily use I still lean toward software emulation and all the side goodies it offers.

[RetroN 77]

10 hours ago, Nathan Strum said:

The RetroN 77 can be updated as Stella continues to improve and support new bankswitching formats. The Stella developers continually strive for accuracy and compatibility for all 2600 games.

It's been fun watching it evolve over the past 20+ years.

 

2 hours ago, alex_79 said:

The current Stella is extremely accurate, and if you fire up a rom you can be 99.9% sure that what you're seeing on the screen is what you would see on real hardware.

Pretty much this. There are two Gold Standards for the VCS, IMHO. The original early model VCS consoles themselves like the H6 or L6. And modern-day emulation via Stella.

 

2 hours ago, alex_79 said:

In fact I don't think I've seen any bug about inaccuracy of TIA emulation reported in the last couple of years.

Ohh there's one in there. MMmmHmm. It's in there. MMhhmm.. AND I'M GONNA FIND IT!!

[Why can't you purchase roms for new games??]

As alluded to earlier we're big boys now and don't furiously pirate stuff like we did after school and all that. Besides there's a ton of stuff out there, several lifetimes in fact, to enjoy. So if something isn't made easily available most of us just forget about it an play something that is.

 

As far as all this online cartridge stuff, and NFT, and Q-Code paper cartridges goes, it's interesting. Even amusing. But I don't think it catches my fancy. Despite all the cleverness and futurism surrounding it all it seems meh. It certainly doesn't ignite my imagination like the original hardware did back in the day.

 

I do enjoy the Harmony/ARM games though. It *IS* something I imagined back in the day. An "intelligent" ROM that could change its data output in realtime. To conduct and orchestrate the VCS internals in far more complex ways than a standard static program in a ROM could ever hope. Didn't know what to call it back then or explain it much beyond what I just said.

 

Harmony/ARM has been around long enough now to consider it a true upgrade to the VCS. It's part of the 2600 infrastructure. And I don't see it as an accelerator (70MHz) at all.

 

So. I'm going to play VCS either on original hardware or through simulation of that hardware via Stella.

[Math FPU]

12 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

I think that's what they do with the Ultimate 64, which is good as it's not emulation as every logic gate is still perfectly recreated in hardware using FPGA.

The results of the logic gates are represented in the FPGA as truth tables. It isn't the exact circuit replication. Far from it. Just the functionality as seen on paper.

 

12 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

However, as stated, it's effectively useless as software designed to run at ~1Mhz is off the charts at 48Mhz. Realistically, you run 4Mhz tops, and even then its too fast.

When I want speed on a classic system I turn to emulation. I can have a 1GHz 6502 in Applewin on an i9. 500MHz on an older i5/i7. A beautiful thing to render 3D spirographs, lissajous spirals, bessels, and ripples in realtime with Applesoft BASIC. Things we only imagined as kids.

 

12 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

You have to be careful, as at what point do you look back and say "It's no longer an A8"...

Absolutely right. This incongruity arises at many points on many systems. While I'm all for speed and such, too much simply changes your original rig into something too far removed from what it was. I like classic systems for what they were.

 

12 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

Point in case: The Vampire range of accelerators for the Amiga. Effectively the Amiga is just a keyboard and IO, even the custom chipset is ignored for the logic built into the Vampire. Hence the reason there's a stand alone Vampire.

This state of affairs is common with accelerators. Even in the Apple II. The accel cards of the day took over and ignored the main memory and cpu. They just slowed down to interface with the expansion cards and other existing peripherals. It really isn't the original console doing any work anymore.

[Why can't you purchase roms for new games??]

 

..and digital hoarders hate collections because of the sprawling mess a physical collection can become.

 

2 hours ago, zzip said:

Collectors hate digital because you typically don't get the physical goods,  but I often wonder why it has to be either/or.   I'm sure there are some people who both want the freedom of digital AND something to display on their shelf

There are! Made several 3-ring binders dedicated to certain favorite programs and program groups. Something that looks nice on a shelf. Something to go through the ritual of inserting a cartridge-like box into a machine. Something to provide physicality. And real printed-on-paper manuals & reference cards.

 

As for which way it has to be. Well. That doesn't matter! It can be any damned well way you desire.

[Math FPU]

I did! Truth be told however I liked seeing them in action in the Chess Challengers from Fidelity. No vintage processor is truly bad except for the Pentium IV - that's one I hate and despise to the n^th degree.

[What if the Model II had won?]

..and a sweet machine it is!

[How do you guys feel about recapping?]

3 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Yeah, traditional museums rarely strive after showcasing their objects in perfect condition, but rather the state after having been used. However what you can't see from the outside, you don't know about so a museum which wants to have something running probably services it accordingly. A museum that only displays items for what they once were with no intention to ever use it again may leave it in original condition, not so much for accuracy as for reducing the workload and expenses of having the museum running.

Reminds me of fighter jets and special planes like the SR-71. They look flightworthy in the museum. But under the skin they've been irreparably chopped and sliced. The main structural parts, no matter how repaired, outside of prohibitively expensive total replacement, would never be able to bear the same stresses and loads.

 

I'm fairly certain the remaining space shuttles had their real engines removed prior to display. So as to recover the hardware for use in the disposable SLS.

 

3 minutes ago, carlsson said:

A private collector usually has completely other motivations than a museum. I know many collectors are dreaming about turning their collection into a museum, but what they really want is a place to showcase their perfect collection for interested people, and perhaps make tax deductions for it.

Yes. I had lovely delusions of grandeur about having Jobs and Woz visit my awesome Apple II collection years ago! Had a whole shelf of games and boxes of hardware and spare parts for the future. I don't think any of them gave a shit..

 

3 minutes ago, carlsson said:

That is rather different from how the majority of real museums operate, selecting a few of the most common items for an era and telling a story through those. Even an art museum doesn't strive to have one of every Picasso painting even if they could afford it, unless of course it is the official Picasso museum.

I like telling the story of classic games through document scans, images, photos, and hands-on play via emulation. It can be done at a pace works for everyone.

[How do you guys feel about recapping?]

14 minutes ago, youxia said:

If it's a museum, they might have a point. Although they should strive to find another unit and keep it operational. Though, then it becomes the question of how much repairs is too much. If your main chip dies, and you replace it with a FPGA or some such, is it still the same computer (from a historical POV).

I suppose it would depend on the intended mode of demonstration. If you're demonstrating how a motherboard layout looked when it rolled off the assembly line. Then nothing but 100% authentic (or authentic-looking) parts would do. They may not have to work. But they better look 100% real down to the shape of the solder and glossy markings or laser-etched markings on the chips.

 

If you are preserving and demonstrating the functionality of a device, then it may not matter what it looks like on the inside. As long as it functions like the original and conveys the meaning and aura then FPGA could replace some parts.

 

I consider my emulation rig in the latter category. An Intel NUC or Shuttle XPC certainly don't look like a VCS on the inside. But they play VCS games reasonably well. Perhaps well enough to illustrate what it was like to be playing in 1977. Granted the boxes, cartridges, and maybe the same controllers aren't there. Neither is the experience of inserting a cart and reading the instructions identical. Also missing is the sound of the silver slide switches. But the essence of the game is there. And in that way it's definitely more than passable.

 

[How do you guys feel about recapping?]

I once spoke with someone that was maintaining computers for a museum and the issue of batteries came up. I was horrified to see some boards with those leaky vartabombs and even super old coin cells. They refused to change them out. They cited authenticity. And, get this, authenticity of its future destiny. They said if it's destined to corrode in that area then that is what MUST take place. We won't interrupt the aging process.

 

[How do you guys feel about recapping?]

That's simple solid advice.

[Modder creates fully water cooled PS5]

Not sure I'm impressed or anything. It's like regular watercooling for a PC.

[Interest check: Applied Engineering Z-80 Plus card with CP/M disks, manual, and box]

This is a good CP/M board. Is it a revision K? If so, even better.

 

[How do you guys feel about recapping?]

Re-capping is a necessary activity in vintage electronics. Things made of certain plastics and capacitors with electrolytes will degrade over time and that simply must be addressed. It's not a big deal. If authenticity is important, like I said earlier, then put the old parts in a baggie and tape it to the inside of the device or something.

 

The only practical reason to keep the old parts (or not replace them) is for photo ops and documenting revisions and manufacturing issues. That sort of thing.

 

One other thing of concern are Flash ROMs, EPROMS, and EEPROMS. Those have a short life compared to ROMs and PROMS. Charge dissipation and insulation breakdown being the culprits.

 

Now.. Silicon parts like transistors and logic/cpu chips, and resistors, and ceramic capacitors, are projected to have a life of over 100-200 years. Masked ROMS and diode arrays likely even longer, as long as the materials hold up. And recent longevity testing shows even this to be conservative.

 

[My Retro-Corner]

A setup doesn't always have to be aesthetically pleasing - unless that's something specific you're trying to achieve. BITD I had consoles piled on top consoles and cartridges and boxes strewn everywhere. Complete opposite of what I got going today.