potatohead

Yeah. It's binary. Each address line has two states, and there are X unique states given Y address lines. 8 address lines = 256 states, or %11111111 etc... He's talking about I/O, and that's a special operation that addresses communications using some of the address lines so that the memory is just memory. In this way, another address space is created, and the I/O happens in that address space instead of being shared with the memory space. 6502 systems don't have this facility, and everything gets stuffed into the 64K address space, I/O, RAM, ROM, etc...

It is acceptable behavior. This stuff is as offensive as any of us thinks it is. This goes with free expression. Everyone has taboos, some more than others. And some of us have few, or maybe none too. I have very few for sure. Some people have problems with couples displaying public affection, or various articles of clothing, for example. Others don't care. And we all get to do that. Time and place disagreements go all ways too. The people who want purity of some sort are also enforcing standards the same as people expressing themselves in various ways are. We've all got options. We can talk about it, perhaps come to some mutual agreement for a time. We can leave. We can do lots of things. Going back to the people and clothing example. Bare midriffs are offensive to some people. They get to say stuff about it, and the people showing some skin can care about that or not too. All get to make choices for themselves, but not others. This means people who really do seek a high degree of purity need to make choices to that effect. They can pick times and places where there is less of what they find objectionable, can form clubs, etc... And it's on them really. They are the ones really offended, and that is OK. But, they may be among others who see it entirely differently, not offended at all. Offended is what we think it is, and it's as important as we think it is too. The law and government really has no role here, leaving it to us, but for very clearly defined harm, which is things like "fire in the theater", or actionable threats, etc... those are crimes. Profanity, blasphemy, and other forms of expression aren't criminal things for these reasons. Private entities, such as here on AA, can and often do regulate expression. That's fine. Some places may regulate it a lot, Disneyland style, others might not regulate it much at all. Everybody is free to make their choices and go from there. Those guys making profanity laced videos aren't doing anything wrong. And they are accountable for that too. If a lot of people look down on them for it, then they look down on them for it. It's up to the people producing things to value that and maybe they want to modify how they do things, or not. All up to them. And that goes back to lazy profanity as opposed to higher value profanity. I don't think too much of people who just use a lot of it. I happen to really enjoy people who know the difference. Everybody varies in this, and that's again what free expression is all about. Sure they could. And your remedy for their speech you don't like is more speech, or making other choices, like avoiding their speech in the future. They either care about what you think, or they don't, and that's OK. You make your choices, they make theirs.

Indeed. ...which reminds me. Time to go and play some IF on my new phone.

And the real question is whether or not they should care. Personally, I didn't. Our family does what our family does. Others think what they think, and their families do what they do. I'm willing to get along, and will work with others willing to do the same. Those that aren't, or who want impractical or painful remedies? I don't care what they think. And it's not mean, or anything. It's just not productive to actually care.

Me too! That's great scrolling! Very well done. One to follow.

Oh yeah. Shit. That is a serious bummer man. I forgot. I know a few people who have struggled with a similar happening.

Cool beans. Looking good.

Yes. It is a mess. Do you happen to have that? I would love to read through a clearer code body.

Oh, this game is good! And yes, it's totally playable. Had a brief play last night. Sort of a final check before the weekend, when I've got a few hours to burn on things I've queued up. Elite might take a nice chunk of that. Good thing I did the quick run. The Apple version appears to have a different set of keys, but they also appear to be the C64 keys, or mostly... One more test should confirm, but I was able to do a lot of things. Got a few trouble spots sorted out. For great fun, I'm playing on my //e, so I've a proper joystick, and such. I've also got dual screens running on that one. One amber, one color. This probably was common. That's how I've always run the Apple. Artifact color has it's disadvantages, and text or other line detail can be just a bit annoying. Just look at the display that makes the most sense, done! There is this talk: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014628/Classic-Game-Postmortem He goes into good detail on all the optimizations they did! And it's basically all of them. Tokenizing their text tokens! (Among many other things, such as lazy drawing and evaluation, table based math for the projection matrices... brilliant!) "Star Raiders" was an influence of theirs, and it shows. They blew "Star Raiders" out of the water on feel, options, and that procedural generation of everything. Wow! I'm looking forward to playing enough to get some skill and get challenged a little. Honestly, the part I like the most is they made the tradeoffs so well. The 3D is a bit crappy, but you don't care. It's fast enough to be immersive, and it's effective enough to work with. Very nicely done. If anybody does this, I would recommend the talk, then go play the game. As you see that stuff play out, a lot of the magic does too. I know for a fact, I would have felt very good about this game. Back in the day, I mostly gamed on Atari. I got the Apple machine for more serious uses, and did game on it, but mostly favored the RPG, "ULTIMA" type games on that machine. It did them very well, and being a 6 color machine, that's just enough to map anything. 4 colors just doesn't quite work. There were a few action / arcade titles I played, but nobody seemed to have or ever talk about "Elite" in the little town I came from. We just missed it. So, the Apple got used for programming, some business tasks, actual word processing and publishing, and RPG + Drol, BOLO (recommended), ROBOTON (also recommended, but you wouldn't think the Apple could do that one, but it does very well), etc... Had I seen this, I would have played the shit out of it. No joke. There is an Atari 8 bit demo and hack on Ian's page here: http://www.elitehomepage.org/archive/index.htm As for speed, etc... The Apple does fairly well. It's not as interactive as the BBC version is, but it's way better than I would have expected. An Atari 8 bit version would be great! One could spiff up the text pages some, definitely split the display for 3D monochrome detail, and run the bottom with some fancy looks, similar to RoF... Like the ORIC version. (and that bottom screen is very nicely done for the time period, BTW) Hey, Ian has the BBC Basic source code for at least one version here: http://www.elitehomepage.org/archive/a/a4080610.zip Anyone look at these? Unreal. Being from the States, I didn't get to use BBC Basic at all. I did tinker with it some in the early era of emulation, and at the prompting of friends as we all got to know one another online. But I had no idea really. Those sources are hard to read, mostly due do their packing in everything as tight as they could. I've a mind to expand that some for clarity and just read through it. Just the other day, a good friend and I, who are working on a modern / retro type system we want to build just for us, if nothing else, were talking about programming environments, and the BBC Basic came up. A few words: In-line assembly. Here on AA, Batari Basic has that, and it's a doddle to write little routines. Beautiful to use, labels and all that just work. The BBC Basic is similar, and that one could write something like "Elite" on the language that came with the system? No tools other than those "in the box?" Brilliant! I'm very seriously impressed by this work on that basis. Back in the day, one could do stuff like this with the Apple. It had a mini-assembler, monitor, and basic, among other little tools built in. Doing a project like this would have meant making a big memory map, some tables for jumps, etc... then building the bits, saving them off, and integrating them with an Applesoft program. Lots of work, but possible. The BBC guys really nailed this much better. I wonder what Ian used to do the Apple port... anyone know? When I got my own, "better" machine, which at first was an Atari, then Color Computer, I noted the distinct lack of those tools. Mowed lawns and such to get them, and sort of limped along with type in tools from "COMPUTE" too. Mac 65 for the Atari, and EDTASM for the CoCo. Expensive, but then, it's all assembly language. It's most fun when the two just blend into one thing, and that can be seen in the Elite source code. They just packed it all in there! Damn cool. **A little RANT MODE = 1 So, we've got bigger environments now, and we talk about portable, scalable, and all that. Good stuff. In many circles, the mere mention of in-line is on par with GOTO. Ugly dialogs. But, the one thing I could never quite get away from is an environment like BBC Basic, and anything capable of simple, sane, in line ASM, would never scale, and isn't so portable, but it does allow people to write really awesome programs. We are missing that in some ways. Just saying.*** RANT MODE = 0 In some ways, it's really great to see it and have that insight. Some of the wonder isn't there, because we know stuff now, but what does seem to shine through is the feel. You are there, and you can do whatever you want! Very impressive. And 24K working code and data space people. (Ok, not counting the stuff they just loaded right to the screen.) Tokenized BASIC, and in-line assembly language. Absolutely brilliant. So I wonder. On one hand, let's say those kids back then had actually been on a 64K machine. Would it have been more awesome, or would it have spiraled off into a mess? Seems to me, the time, place, their vision, the tools, constraints, all combined to forge a perfect thing. Edit: My wife: What the heck is that? Me: One of the greatest games ever made! Wife: Ugh. it's a few beeps, some blinky lines, and the odd thing or two that might look like something... Me: Theatre of the mind. That is what this is.

Good call. I'll print it tomorrow.

I have the Apple 2 version queued for this weekend. Yeah, I totally missed out. Cool beans. That means I've got a killer classic experience on tap and fresh. Love it.

I got into trouble once for saying frak. They said the thought is what counts, to which I replied, well fuck it then. Might as well get full credit. Didn't go well. So we turned ship into a cussword. After that shack. Carp. One after the other. Was kind of a rough year for the powers that be on 8th grade year... Anything can be profane really. It's all in the delivery. Battlestar Galactica was so fake. Let's just say the delivery was lacking. They tried, but I always got the sense they were doing more takes due to laughing hard over the silly dialog.

Or don't be lazy in profanity. It's a hard thing with really young kids. I didn't deal with it until they were old enough to appreciate form and value. One odd thing worked fantastically well though. A friend thought it up, and that is cussing night. For one evening, every once in a while, no taboos. Go for it, and just check it all out. Of course they did, surprising even me, and I really hard to surprise on stuff like this. And then the most amazing thing happened. They stopped, but for serious not lazy uses. I'm not sure how it worked, but it was something to do with wiping that mistique away, along with the shock value. I think they realized how stupid they were sounding. This would go for a considerable time, then they would ask for another cussing night. It was almost as if they collected a bunch and waited! Then during free time, explored it all, maybe getting that out of their system or something. Anyway, recommended. It might seem irresponsible, but I don't think it is if you are there to help them realize things. Crazy! @Chris. Yeah, cool. Feeling the appreciation. And everybody needs a little Douglas Adams. Just once maybe.

My view is a bit outside the conservative norm. Profanity breaks down two basic ways: One way is the lazy way. To test for it, take the profanity out of the expression and see what value is lost. In this way, profanity is used for it's intrinsic shock value, and I consider it lazy, low value speech to be discouraged. Lazy profanity adds little value, and it's easy to see the words being used for shock value only, not any meaningful purpose beyond that. The other way is more valuable. Sometimes, the world has ugly things, people, places, ideas in it. Ugly words are needed to express ugly things. To test for this, remove the profanity and see whether or not the meaning and value are diminished. If so, that profanity is adding value. Often profanity can add very considerable value. Sometimes it's necessary, if it is to be expressed properly. That's real. Frankly, I raised my kids on that basis. Good form is OK. Bad, lazy form reflects badly on them, and the world is less for it. I really don't have a problem with profanity personally, and I prefer good form. So I nailed 'em for lazy profanity, and let good form, real dialog pass. Turns out my older son is funny as all get out! Not only does he know how to use it, but he's got real potential in stand up one day. I would never have known had I shut the door on it for purity reasons. Disneyland type dialogs are often as painful as lazy profanity is, and I much prefer real dialogs, and those may well include profanity. What I find most painful and low value is the idea that words are bad in and of themselves. They are just words, and it's all about the context and meaning in the expression they are part of. Some people will rule out profanity on the mere "bad word" basis, and that is frankly as shallow as using profanity in a lazy way is. My kids grew up and use profanity in the good form sense well. I'm good with that. They can have real conversations just as I did, and that is as good as it gets. Seeking purity in expression takes considerable time, and it's a near constant thing to manage. I've much better things to do with my life and time. Besides, there just isn't purity. People, will hear profanity. And it's there because it's part of real expression made by real people living in the real world doing real things. Better to understand it than invest so much in avoiding it. Disneyland is a great place to visit, but is pure hell to live. Put another way, I have always seen the quest for purity in expression as an effort as dubious as Peril Sensitive Sunglasses are. Think, if you can't see it, then it can't see you, and it's about right. Let the nay-saying commence!

Yeah, I know others who feel the same way. I really imprinted on WOLF3D, DOOM, QUAKE. Keyboard mouse rocks so hard, I find a pad very limiting, though some assist helps.

I like the Jag version. And DOOM. The family preferred consoles, and they played the crap out of it. For me personally, the PC version is the very best. I ran it on a 386/33 back in the day. And that early keyboard mouse experience just ruled. Same thing with DOOM, and that was my first multi-player experience too. A friend had setup the thing at university. We would come in the evenings, jump on some workstations and just play. Comparing older, slower PC's to the consoles is one thing. The experience is very comparable. But the controls are in the way on the consoles. Comparing it to a bit faster PC is another. Total twitch game! And that's why the PC rules for me. It's just awesome. One of my favorite moments was on the PC, and I had done some ugly battle, ending with me taking a breather in some narrow hall way or other. Had like 5 percent health and just the knife... but I was damn near finished with the level. So, after slamming a Pepsi, I went for it! Knifed my way right to the door, and got out, and got a health pack just in time! I remember dipping in, knife, knife, knife, move, knife, knife, knife, move.... did this little dance around the baddies, just barely avoiding being shot, and got 'em all in one flurry of thrashing! Keyboard mouse baby! That moment really wasn't possible on the consoles... Now, if that control scheme were available? Yeah! The console versions played well, and all that. Lots of fun, and plenty good technically. But having the controls on PC is what makes it for me.

Yes, agreed. There is something about a little freedom and the hints at an open, big world that wireframe suggests to the user. It really appeals. Saw a video on Elite the other day. One user really got into the game and talked about how it's open nature really impacted him. I need to play that one now. Never have.

T2K got the benefit of being abstract. That helps where the other efforts hurt. As for the pixel mess, blurry, etc... many people were playing these games on a composite connection, standard definition TV, and those two things tend to smear and smudge a lot, which helped a lot with things like poly count and texture depth.

Totally. The original did have a 6809 and nice hardware. So far, this one looks like it will play well. That is what matters on this title.

Yeah, I remember thinking, "WTF??" when I first saw that. Was kind of funny and weird. After looking the video over again, this effort looks like it's going to play well. One thing I'm hoping for is real collisions, not just "blast the whole scan line" ones, like we've got on the 8 bit version. Having that in the game makes it a lot harder, and there is a definite "feel" to blasting through a pile of landers, bombers, etc... in a crowded space that might come through just fine on this one.

Got a link to that TV? I could really use on that does PAL. None of my sets do. As for the vertical shift, I've seen that on occasion. Not all sets do it, when the 50 HZ is an NTSC signal. When it is PAL, yeah. See that a lot, when running PAL monochrome.

Re: 50Hz Most American TVs will do NTSC at 50HZ. Pal has a different sync pattern, and that's not going to see much support here, but NTSC actually does work at 50 and 60Hz on the majority of displays. There actually is an NTSC 50 variant out there. Can't recall off hand what country / region it's in though. But it's there. I know this, because I've generated both of these signals with a Color Computer 3, which has a 50 / 60Hz switch register. An NTSC model will do 50/60Hz NTSC, and a PAL one will do 50/60Hz PAL. Weird. But kind of useful... One can get the longer blanking time with just a write to a register. Spiffy! But unused, as far as I can tell. I've also generated 50Hz NTSC test signals with a Propeller, largely to duplicate what the CoCo 3 did and for my own curiosity. Maybe some games can be patched, or there is a hardware switch, or maybe something else that could help with this? Component displays will run 50/60Hz on whatever standard they are made for. It's nearly as universal as the standard composite capability is. I've tested that out too. 50Hz component NTSC should display on most devices. Anyway, for what it's worth. I'm not an ST user. At least at present. Maybe one of these days.

Or... losing that bucket brings you tunnel vision. You fixate on the task, the world drops away, leaving just bombs 'n buckets. And you nail that level. Cold. I love that game, and that's why. KABOOM pushes right up against human limits. It's the sort of game that gets right to your basic nature. And if you really want to complete that level, you dig deep, change a little, which also cultivates an addiction like no other, find it within somewhere and finish it. Go back, pick up that paddle, and dig deep. If you didn't finish, you didn't want it bad enough. That's KABOOM.

Good grief! This thread isn't about any of that. See the PoP one go private? This is why.

...not that you need it. Just saying I support the effort and am interested in the tale.