Jump to content
Have You Played Atari Today?
2600|5200|7800|Lynx|Jaguar|Forums|Store  

doubledown

Members
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Content Count

    2,761

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by doubledown

  1. Posted

    Adding 4 extra switches to a standard 4-switch, 8-way joystick, only gets me a passive 8-way INTV joystick, wherein the "diagonals" achieved are true diagonals of 45, 135, 225, and 315 degrees, versus the +22.5 degree diagonals of 67.5, 157.5, 247.5, and 337.5 degrees that the Intellivision creates/sees, when only 2 wires, through 2 cardinal direction switches are grounded.  The additional 4 switches I added, 1 in each corner, ground wire 9, in addition to the 2 contacts of the existing cardinal direction switches also being closed simultaneously, and this is what creates the true diagonals, passively on the Intellivision.  For only 8 switches to create 16 unique directions, 8 wires would need to be used, but the Intellivision does it simply with 5, because the drawn conductive traces on the flexible membranes can allow for this this sort of witchcraft.  But in the real world, where physical switches are to be used, with only having 5 wires to create 16 directions, it will have to be done with 16 switches...1 for each direction.  So my attempt will be to create a circular array of 16 switches around the joystick's actuator, in a break-before-make scenario...which yields 16 separate directions...passively.  The joystick that i'll be using has a round restrictor so that the the switches can be installed equidistant from the actuator's center point (versus a square restrictor/gate, that would have longer throws into the corners), and allow for a b-b-m install .  I'll just need to figure out the mounting diameter for the switches, and the diameter for the nylon actuator...that will make this all possible.   

    • Like 1

  3. Posted

    Thanks for the info @mr_me  I started going through the Intellivison library tonight, to personally verify, how many directions each game requires.  I got through about 30 games so far, and hopefully in a few more days I'll have worked through the entire "original library" to get a true count/list for the games that are either 1-way, 2-way, 4-way, 8-way, 8-way (INTV), and 16-way.  

     

    In additional news...I did come up with a way to create a 16-way digital arcade joystick that would be passive (no power requirement).  Electrically the concept works...I just need to see if I can actually modify an existing joystick to build it.  I had to order a bunch of parts for some other controllers I've been commissioned to build, so I went ahead and ordered the switches that I'm going to try to use to make it; so we'll just have to wait and see if/how it comes out.  

    • Like 3

  5. Posted

    Well if you plugged in the ColUSB power supply as intended...some sort of wall-wart USB 5V outputting power supply - to USB cable - to ColUSB power adapter, then plug in the Roller Controller to it as your setup.  Then using a multi-meter, read the current draw on the USB cable's 5V power line, while you manipulate the trak-ball, and if the current draw is less than 125 mA overall...you should in theory be fine.  

  6. Posted

    5 minutes ago, Falonn said:

    If the ColUSB is connected directly to the Roller Controller, wouldn't the +12V and -5V rails be completely unloaded?  On that controller's plug, those two lines are just a straight passthrough (for the eventual connection to the Colecovision itself, which wouldn't be present in this case) and it only runs the +5V and GND lines to the controller.  (If you look at the power wire, it's clear there are only two conductors.  The schematic also confirms that only +5V is used.)

     

    I have no idea what the quiescent current would be for the unused rails, but if they're small enough to fit in that adapter, they're going to be the buck/boost style, which are usually pretty efficient, right?

    Give it a shot and let us know.  

  8. Posted

    Thanks for the list...it's a good place to get started.  A buddy brought over last night, his LTO flash cart (and he's letting me borrow it for a few days), so at least now I can test the whole library myself, at least the "original games" that I have the files for.  I also remember reading where people had said that some games will work "diagonally properly" even with the odd +22.5 degree angles achieved from only connecting 2 of the cardinal directions, without the extra 3rd wire (pin 9), whereas you don't get a true up & right at 45 degrees, you really get 67.5 degrees.  And with just some minimal testing last night I can confirm that games like Venture and Q*bert, do work "diagonally proper", when only 2 wires (2 cardinal directions) are connected to ground.  So are all 8-way games like that, and only the 16-ways cause the issue, or are there some 8-way games that need to see the pure diagonals to register them...with some testing...I will find out.  

    • Like 1

  10. Posted

    12 minutes ago, mr_me said:

    With astrosmash it's kp3, space hawk is kp9, and loco-motion is kp-enter.

    Well those are all obvious as they are all denoted on their keypad overlays...and listed in their manuals.  But 2 different Defender homebrew overlays I've seen, as well as 2 separate TXT files of the manual, make no mention of how to activate it...very strange.  Like I said, I'll obviously have to spend some time with the games library and the available documentation to get a better idea of how many games can work well enough without being able to manipulate the 3 buttons' functions, as well as determine how many games can work with an 8-way or less.  

  13. Posted

    I think the best scenario is either 

     

    1) Top - Left (bottom) - Right (bottom)

     

    or 

     

    2) Left (bottom) - Top - Right (bottom)

     

    ...and for me, I think I would lean toward option 1...and maintain my standard button layout, but with only 3 buttons.  The rotary selector switches are always a possibility, but would significantly add to the cost, and wiring time.  I will need to spend more time researching and playing through more of the library of games (that are playable without a 16-way joystick), to see how "necessary" these selector switches would even be.   In my opinion, if say half of the library used the Top button as the main button, and the other half used one of the Bottom buttons, I could understand the necessity...but for only a few games...I think it's probably an overkill.  

     

    Then just to clean up a bit of wiring on the bench this weekend, I crimped on a 9-pin connector onto the hard-wired cable for the left controller on my INTV System III (which now allows for plug-in controllers, such as those from the Intellivision II), and also made a custom 9-pin (Atari) to 9-pin (INTV) passive adapter cable, that allows for the use of Atari and ColecoVision type controllers on the system.  Obviously this adapter cable only offers compatibility with 2-way and 4-way games (maybe some 8-ways as I understand), and 1 button (TOP)...but it did allow me to play some Donkey Kong, Burger Time, and Lock 'N Chase with one of my ColecoVision arcade sticks.  

     

    I'll definitely need to do some more research for the button order, with reference to game compatibility...then I'd have to figure out how to "theme" the controller for the Intellivision.  

  14. Posted · Edited by doubledown

    If you want to go from an RF signal (Coax or Phono) to "RCA plug" composite video, plus audio, then you would want an "RF Demodulator."  Something like this:

     

    HERE

     

    I can't speak to the quality of this particular unit...but this is basically what you're looking for.  It won't improve the video quality like a true Video Mod to the console would, but if somehow your television doesn't have an RF antenna input, then you would need something like this.  I've had a similar unit, like one of of these units from 20 years ago, before I ever did any console modding myself, and I don't remember having any problems with it...at the time.  

     

    If I'm not mistaken all TVs by definition (of being a TV vs. a monitor) has to have a built in tuner and an RF connection...so unless you're using a monitor, you should already have an RF input, and may simply need a female phono to coax adapter.  

    • Like 1

  15. Posted

    1 hour ago, fdr4prez said:

    That's an interesting concept

    I've used a similar concept on multiple instances of Experience Controllers for the ColecoVision, wherein adding an actual keypad would detract from the arcade mimicing aesthetics, and apparently I'm a glutton for punishment and like the extra wiring.  On my Tutankham Controller for example:

     

    9iJHIB.png

     

    The rotary switch at the bottom/center has 3 positions:

     

    * Position 1 - P1 Start = Keypad #1 & P2 Start = Keypad #4 (easy)

    * Position 2 - P1 Start = Keypad #2 & P2 Start = Keypad #5 (medium)

    * Position 3 - P1 Start = Keypad #3 & P2 Start = Keypad #6 (difficult)

     

    This same idea, can be used for only 1 button per rotary switch, to allow it to independently become "x" number of different options, presumably 3 in the case of the Intellivision, thus using (1) 4 position rotary switch each, for each of the 3 buttons, which would allow any of the three buttons to be either:

     

    Top

    Left (bottom)

    Right (bottom)

    "OFF"

     

    1 hour ago, fdr4prez said:

    Since you own and played Intellivision for some time, then you are aware that pressing 1+9 keypads would pause most games.

     

    It may be beneficial to have a single pushbutton for a pause.  The single button would need to ground pins 2, 4, 6, 8 at the same time.

     

    Thoughts?

     

    Again, while I've owned Intellivision consoles/games for a very long time...I've rarely spent any time with them...but I thought I read this somewhere before.  It is definitely possible to add a dedicated PAUSE button.

     

    1 hour ago, mr_me said:

    I'm imagining the index finger being on the middle button and the middle finger on the outside button.  These two buttons are at the same level beside each other.  The rarely used third button would be a little lower to the inside.  It would be like the defender arcade control panel.  With Intellivision Defender or Dracula you move your index finger to the first/inside button and your second finger on the middle button.  No need for switches and multiple configurations.

     

    If you have keypad buttons, you can pause, if someone wants to pay for a dedicated pause button that's up to them.  One thing I was pondering was actually using arcade buttons for the keypad rather than a telephone keypad.

     

    I feel I take a controller's ergonomics into account, a lot more than most people...with regards to spacing, layout, and the likes.  My standard button layout/configuration that I developed is this (when always using the left-most button (the one with the center ring (#1)), as the 1st button, then adding, as necessary, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th to it's right):

     

    XUbRhZ.png

     

    As you can see above, the angle between button 1 and button 2, is significantly different from the angle between button 2 and button 3, due to the different lengths of human fingers, and the angle at which your wrists/hands rest, when your elbows are at your sides, and your forearms are rotated inward toward the center of your torso.  While most might not give it a 2nd thought, and some even simply install their buttons in a straight line, I know there is a great loss of comfort and ergonomics, if using buttons 2 and 3 (with your index and middle fingers respectively), when compared to using buttons 1 and 2 (with your index and middle fingers respectively).  Don't get me wrong, it can be used either way, it's simply not as comfortable.    

     

    I've built a few controllers with larger 24mm Sanwa arcade push-buttons (round and square) for the keypad buttons:

     

    x3maKI.png

     

    ...and this is probably the route I would lean towards, if going forward with an Intellivision controller.  They are definitely a lot nicer for games that require a lot of keypad button usage (as they're easier to both find and press), during the heat of frantic game-play.  

    • Like 2

  16. Posted

    2 hours ago, fdr4prez said:

    Should be no reason to have 2 top buttons. 

     

    Maybe have a 3 button layout in a bit of a triangle. 

     

    The top button would be the middle peak, and then you'd have a lower left button and a lower right button. 

     

    The triangle is a possibility, but then, if you chose to hover your fingers over all 3 buttons simultaneously (for when needed), your middle finger would be manipulating the Top button (which seems to be the main button in a lot of games), versus your index finger manipulating the main button.  

     

    41 minutes ago, mr_me said:

    Most intellivision games use two side buttons or less with the top being the primary action.  Intellivision Defender being one of the exceptions where the bottom button is primary.  Then there is Pinball where the bottom left and right side buttons are each left and right flippers.  And there is Atlantis, although it's 16 directions, the top button is the left gun and the bottom button is the right gun.  So when you build the right-hand joystick version of the controller keep these left/right quirks in mind.   I think the button layout in that colecovision example is good, omit the button on the exterior side, and make the button in the middle the primary/top action.

     

    I knew there would not be any 1 perfect order...for every game...but if the Top button is the main action button in a lot of games, I think it makes the most sense to lay it out like this:

     

    Top - Left (bottom) - Right (bottom)

     

    ...at least for my brain to comprehend, and so that my index finger is manipulating the main button in most games (versus my middle finger).  Although I completely understand the thought of the layout like this:

     

    Left (bottom) - Top - Right (bottom) (in a line, or arc, or triangle-ish, format)

     

    Alternatively, the 3 buttons could be wired through 3 separate 4T switches, that would allow for any physical button, to be wired as any of the 3 button possibilities or, off/deactivated...on-the-fly.  I've done this same concept for a few different CV controllers.  

     

    For a "right-hand joystick" version, which I take to mean...manipulating the joystick with your right-hand (for left handed people) and the buttons with your left hand, I've made one for the ColecoVision, and I simply mirrored the buttons so that your index finger is still manipulating the CV Left button (main button in most games), and your middle finger is still manipulating the CV Right button (secondary button in most games).  But it could get trickier with the Intellvision buttons...truly depending on a chosen layout.  

  17. Posted

    So I was working out the final fastening and adjustments for the joystick's extra 4 micro-switches last night...and it all seems to work very well.  If I decide to go forward with this, and build up a full controller...I do have a question for the Intellivsion fans...what order do I wire/install the 3 (or maybe 4 buttons), that would make the most sense? 

     

    I've owned in Intellivision II, and an INTV System III (and about 50 games) for probably the better part of 20 years now...but I've never spent much time with them, thus don't know the games well enough to know how the buttons are most used.  Now I realize that asking 2 or more people for their opinions regarding a topic or subject, will result in no less than 3 different answers, but I'm curious to know what you think.

     

    If I used 3 buttons, does this make sense as the most logical order (from left to right, on a controller with the buttons on the right side of the controller)

     

    Top - Left Bottom - Right Bottom

     

    Is there any good reason to use 4 buttons, with a duplicate Top button?

     

    Top - Left Bottom - Right Bottom - Top (2)

     

    Or something completely different?

  19. Posted

    20 minutes ago, mr_me said:

    Not sure how you plan to do the double-pole button but if it involves two switches I would wire it as follows and ensure the switch with the ground pin 5 is connected last.

     

    Button 1 - Upper (both sides) - 6/8 & 6/5

    For the "side" buttons, I can see any 1 of 3 possibilities...depending on the hardware used:

     

    1) with standard arcade push-button installed with SPST or SPDT switch, 5 to the COM, and 6 & 8 (with 1 diode on each) to the NO

    2) modify an arcade push-button to accept a DPST or DPST switch, 5 to COMs (1&2), and 6 to NO (1), and 8 to NO (2)

    3) modify an arcade push-button to accept, and simultaneously cycle, 2 separate SPST, or SPDT switches

     

    Out of curiosity, if 2 switches were used, and 1 was made for a fraction-of-a-second prior to the 2nd one, why would you think to pair 6/8, then (6+8)/5?  6/5 & 8/5 are not individually registered inputs that I can discern for any of the directions, keypad, or button functions.  Is there a known problem if the console would "see" either of these pairs contacted without the other?

    • Like 1

  20. Posted

    11 hours ago, grips03 said:

    I think people would like a 4/8 switchable arcade stick with built in keypad that required no external power, and perhaps rapid fire too :)

    Yeah, everybody wants a 4-way / 8-way switchable joystick...but without opening the controller housing to manipulate/switch the gate...the only 2 options for this I know of are, Ultimarc's Mag-Stik Plus, and Ultimarc's ServoStik.  I've never read one single "glowing" review of the Mag-Stik, and thus have never bought one, to try it for myself.  I've used the ServoStik before...it's a modified Sanwa JLW series with a controller PCB, and a servo motor manipulated gate.  Functionally it works as advertised, but in the realm of component joystick costs...it's fairly pricey at about $80 (joystick + control board + shipping)...plus it has to be powered to rotate the gate, and 2 switches are required for it's operation, 1) to turn on/off the power to the controller PCB, and 2) to activate the "rotation."  Additionally modern Japanese joysticks, like those from Seimitsu/Sanwa, are built substantially different from Western controls (HAPP, iL), and wouldn't lend themselves well to the addition of 4 added micro-switches...due to their assembly.  

     

    8 hours ago, fdr4prez said:

    I like the addition of the extra set of switches for the diagonals, so you don't need to use the NAND gate ICs for the diagonals.

    Not with 8 separate switches (4 for U/R/D/L, plus 4 for UR/DR/DL/UL)...as its functionally the same as what the stock Intellivision controllers are doing...also without NAND gate ICs.  

     

    8 hours ago, fdr4prez said:

    If you are interested in making a 16-way joystick using an analog stick, please let me know and I can give you some pointers.

    I have a SEGA, Japanese candy cabinet, analog arcade stick, that I got when I was working on building a few 5200 controllers a while back.  But once I realized how very few 5200 games actually require, and are properly played with, an analog joystick...I decided not to use it, and just went digital.  Like you said...they're not very economical...as I think I paid about $75 for the one that I got...plus they're not currently made, so finding one isn't always easy.  I don't think I'd be interested in using it for a 16-way joystick for the Intellivision...but I can understand how it would be a good starting point.  

  21. Posted

    Quite simply, wire as following:

     

    Keypad 1 - 4/5 & 6/5

    Keypad 2 - 4/5 & 7/5

    Keypad 3 - 4/5 & 8/5

    Keypad 4 - 3/5 & 6/5

    Keypad 5 - 3/5 & 7/5

    Keypad 6 - 3/5 & 8/5

    Keypad 7 - 2/5 & 6/5

    Keypad 8 - 2/5 & 7/5

    Keypad 9 - 2/5 & 8/5

    Keypad Clear - 1/5 & 6/5

    Keypad 0 - 1/5 & 7/5

    Keypad Enter - 1/5 & 8/5

     

    Button 1 - Upper (both sides) - 6/5 & 8/5

    Button 2 - Lower (left side) - 7/5 & 8/5

    Button 3 - Lower (right side) - 6/5 & 7/5

     

    Joystick Up - 2/5

    Joystick Right - 3/5

    Joystick Down - 4/5

    Joystick Left - 1/5

     

    ...then add a secondary set of (4) micro-switches, only hit far into the diagonals, so that

     

    Joystick Up/Right - 2/5 & 3/5 (from the factory Up and Right micro-switches), plus additionally 9/5 from the added Up/Right micro-switch

    Joystick Down/Right - 4/5 & 3/5 (from the factory Down and Right micro-switches), plus additionally 9/5 from the added Up/Right micro-switch

    Joystick Down/Left - 4/5 & 1/5 (from the factory Down and Left micro-switches), plus additionally 9/5 from the added Up/Right micro-switch

    Joystick Up/Left - 2/5 & 1/5 (from the factory Up and Left micro-switches), plus additionally 9/5 from the added Up/Right micro-switch

     

    It works here, and achieves the "pure diagonal angles": of 45, 135, 225 & 315 degrees, tested with Tennis:

     

    yAYIF5.jpg

     

    When removing the "added" (4) micro-switches (or simply not installing them), then the diagonal angles achieved are 67.5, 157.5, 247.5, & 337.5 degrees.  

     

    And @wongojack the "stock" photo from my website was simply posted as an example of what such an Intellivision controller built by me would look like...i.e. housing style, control layout, and the likes.  

    • Like 5

  22. Posted

    The problem with making a new Intellivision controller is quite simply the 16-way joystick...which doesn't exit outside of Intellivision controllers.  When people reference simply "adding diodes," usually they are referring to either making a pinout/wiring adapter that allows for the use of some existing controller (Atari or SEGA or the likes) with an Intellivision, or in reference to using single pole push-button switches for the 12 keypad buttons and/or the 3 side buttons on a custom controller, versus using double-pole switches (which wouldn't require any diodes), as in how the existing Intellivision controllers work, and are wired.  

     

    So I had a chance to look into the Intellivision's controller wiring tonight, and after some actual physical and electrical testing here, I've determined that it would be no problem to create a custom arcade quality controller, with actual arcade components...that is completely passive (requiring no power, electronics, or witchcraft) with either a 4-way or 8-way joystick, 12 button keypad, and 3 buttons...but to create a 16-way joystick...that's a whole different animal.  

     

    It could look something like this:

     

    xJS0bJ.png

     

    ...but with 1 less button, different artwork, and with different colored components.  

    • Like 3

  23. Posted

    I've been pondering this exact project for a little while now...the 16-way joystick to match the original controllers capability is the killer.  Are there many games in the Intellivision library that can actually use all 16 directions?  And of those games, how many are absolutely necessary with all 16 directions...versus say only 8? 

     

    Is this desire for a 16-way arcade stick for the Intellivision, similar to the questionably unnecessary desire for an analog arcade stick for the 5200...for the very few games it's truly necessary, and proper for? 

    • Like 1

  24. Posted

    10 minutes ago, Swami said:

    It takes 5V from a usb wall adapter. It is a switching power supply, but I've used it to power the Roller Controller. It plugs into the same OG ColecoVision power port as the standard OG ColecoVision power supply and the Roller Controller. I assume the Roller Controller just uses the 5V and ground pin of the power supply. Perhaps a direct connection would be more linear and perhaps that is less noisy than a switching power supply. A bit beyond me there.

    I'm sure the Roller Controller can be powered via the ColUSB, as it's intended to be used, but I wouldn't attempt to start at the PS/2 port on the Phoenix, to the ColUSB power supply, (via a PS/2 to USB cable) to power a Roller Controller.  The ColUSB might try to draw too much power. 

AtariAge
Forums
Store
General
Follow AtariAge

Copyright ©1998-2021 AtariAge

×
×
  • Create New...