doubledown

February 14

Or, for arcade accuracy...a Robotron: 2084 controller with WICO leaf-switch joysticks:

Providing that sweet sweet silence, that only leaf-switch joysticks can provide! 😉

February 13

Are you looking for 98, or 98SE?

February 11

Recent untested/broken ones have sold from $5 - $10, and tested working (some with box) have sold from $30 - $60...so yes, this particular seller seems to be smoking the crack rocks! I don't believe that there was ever more than 1 revision of this controller, wherein 1 variant is super rare. This is also the 3rd straight week he's attempted to sell sell it for $150.

February 11

1 hour ago, rietveld said:

Just wondering what is needed to get a Sega joypad working on a Colecovision?

Blasphemy! 😃

18 minutes ago, Swami said:

You can play 1 button games without any mods just like with a 2600 joystick. For two button games, You would have to extensively rewire the insides according to the ColecoVision pinout and add diodes to both lines going from pin 6 to Pins 8 and 5. Pressing button 1 should connect pins 6 and 8 and pressing button 2 should connect pins 6 and 5.

And as mentioned, depending on the functionality wanted/required, either none, some, or much re-wiring is required, and either no, some, or up to 34 diodes may be required...again depending on what you want it to be able to do (1-4 "game" buttons, and 0-12 keypad buttons).

February 11

If I'm not mistaken, there is no off the shelf potentiometer that can be bought that is a perfect drop in fit, I believe mostly due to the d-flatted shaft, and maybe only it's overall length. Best Electronics has replacements that they had made up, and would be your best bet for a perfect drop in fit. I'm not sure if they have anything for the the paddle's button switch or not.

February 6

@CPUWIZ, does your adapter allow for the use of the analog thumb-sticks...and if so, as truly analog (presumably simulating paddles)? Because if so, someone could "simply" hack the existing 7800 port of Food Fight to make use of one of them, to produce an arcade port that would match the analog joystick control that the arcade game had.

It still blows me away that ATARI never released Food Fight for the 5200...the one console they released...with analog joysticks. A missed opportunity to say the least!

February 5

I thought I remember reading in one of the service manuals (or somewhere), that it was either 25mA, or 50mA, that was available at each of the controller ports.

February 5

7 hours ago, Swami said:

Well, you'd replace the flight stick with a joystick and the d-pad with a spinner and then it would be what you want, only smaller. You'd said "or trackball", so, I assume the trackball would replace the joystick. A little cramped, I admit, but it's a proof of concept.

Oh, I thought you meant to use that actual controller, but you were just talking about and size I guess. And you're right, it only has to be as physically large as it needs to be, so that the necessary/desired controls can physically be installed into it. What I should have said, is that if I were making something with all of those controls, and I was going to use it...it would have to be really really big, due to my person preferences regarding layout, physical intererences, and ergonomics. But different people have different ideas of what's too big, and what's too small. Some care about physical interferences from one controller when manipulating another...and some don't. Some care about control layout ergonomics when actually manipulating the controls...and some don't. And some care about support/rest area for your hands when using an arcade controller...and some don't. Most people are more than satisfied playing vintage games on their touch-screen phones/tablets, or with a "d-pad" controller, because these solutions are very inexpensive, and take up very little room. I however, am a self-admitted "snob/enthusiast" when it comes to arcade/joystick controllers, wherein I don't simply want the smallest/cheapest solution that might get the job done, for some short time before it breaks. I want exactly what I want...and if that means it gets built into a large 20" wide enclosure to provide the spacing/room I feel that it needs, then it gets built into a large 20" enclosure. If I want to use rare/expensive/authentic, original arcade controls, and the overall build costs me $300, $400, $500...then so be it. I understand that I am the outlier with regards to most of this...but I often forget.

Irregardless of any of this, it all comes down to having games that can make use of any extra/enhanced controls. If and when those games exist, it can be decided/determined if there will simply be an adapter needed to use an existing controller to provide the extra functionality, (similarly, probably, to what CPUWIZ did for the DS2 controllers), or it's a custom built controller to fit the bill. Obviously the I/O is there at the P2 controller port to add plenty of more features, and it's been there all this time. But because homebrewers, I believe, want people to actually play their games, they program them to make use of the limited I/O at the P1 controller port, because that's what people have controllers for....a joystick, and 2 buttons.

February 5

24 minutes ago, Swami said:

Doesn't *have* to be that big:

Well that doesn't have any sort of rotary controller(s) or a trak-ball, so it doesn't include everything possible. So to include "everything"...it would certainly have to be bigger than that...but again I'm not advocating an all-in-one controller, simply a "standard" control scheme. Your example would be a fine inexpensive solution for a port of some sort of flying game that can make use of analog controls...who wants to port Afterburner to the 7800?

22 minutes ago, Zonie said:

OK that's pretty much what I came up with too, but I inadvertently thought the spinner encoder was on left and right. See my schematic first post. You also are forgetting the fire button on the right port. That is button 3, and up and down are 4 and 5 respectively. I'll update my schematic to reflect the correct pins on the rotary encoder.

ZoNiE Controller Rev A.pdf 105.49 kB · 2 downloads

I was just considering what could be done "easily" (if actually possible), based on the given existing 2600 controller wiring schemes, that shouldn't cause interference with anything else.

February 5

49 minutes ago, rietveld said:

I know its easier to play from ade but i love physical media

Then use the Disk Drive...its way faster (assuming it has the necessary storage capacity)!!! 😃

February 5

I don't know...what is it? Any description, screen shots, game-play video?

February 5

All right, so I've given this some serious thought, and this is what I've come up with:

P1/Left Controller Port = (Standard Controls, would work for all legacy games)

Joystick or Trak-Ball

2 Buttons

P2/Right Controller Port = (Enhanced Controls, for additional features for new homebrews/hacks)

1 Rotary encoder control, single axis (using the joystick Up/Down directions), same as the 2600 Driving Controller wiring, for games that require a spinning/rotary controller like Tempest, or as a digital steering wheel

2 Analog controls, same as the 2600 Paddle Controllers wiring, 2 axis control could provide separate analog throttle and steering controls for a driving/racing game, or a single axis could be used for a game like TRON

2 Additional buttons, (using the joystick Left/Right directions), same as the 2600 Paddle Controllers "button(s)" wiring, which would allow for a total of 4 buttons, when combined with the 2 buttons from the "Standard Controls"

Now 2 things...(1) I'm not advocating an attempt to stuff all of these bits into 1 controller, unless it's really really big, and (2) persons who know, and properly understand the 7800's hardware / software possibilities and limitations, would need to verify that this is a useable solution.

February 3

40 minutes ago, Ikrananka said:

Okay, so I was mistaken when I said that the cart release of Armageddon doesn't support the Roller Controller. It's right there in the game manual that it does and I just tested it to make sure, and it does indeed work.

So, this then begs the question, what does the Armageddon "Roller Controller Edition" (RCE) really mean? The original and RCE rom files are certainly different but play testing both I can't tell any difference. Please help CollectorVision - my head hurts 😩

Do both work in Roller mode, or is one Joystick mode only, and the other allows for Roller mode?

February 3

The more I think about it, there is no reason to "develop a standard"...as it already exists. The 7800 console itself, as built and in it's current state of existence, is your endpoint limit of what the control possibilities are. Each controller port can read "x" number of discrete digital inputs, "x" number of analog potentiometers, and "x" number of digital encoders...simultaneously, or alternately...so that is the "standard." There is nothing stopping anybody, right this second, from programming a game that can make use of some, or all of the possible available inputs. Then simply tell those who wish to play said game..."to play this game, your controller will need this quantity, of these type of input devices, wired to these ports/pins."

Now, you just need to find the programmer, to program whatever game you're looking for, and from my understanding most of them are just sitting around waiting for requests. 😄

February 3

Well the obvious and easiest to implement "extra" feature (hardware & software-wise), would be to add up to 6 extra buttons (as necessary). Build/buy a controller with as many as 8 buttons, and plug a 2nd cable into the 2nd controller port, and make use of the 2nd port's U/D/L/R/LB/RB inputs. Then, just think of a good game that requires somewhere between 3-8 buttons, that you can get a programmer to program for the 7800. How about a proper 3-button port of the beloved 7800 Double Dragon!?! How 'bout Spy Hunter for the 7800? Think big people!

February 3

I'd say the biggest problem I would have with something a Tank-stick is simply the overall size/weight, as it doesn't lend itself to be used in one's lap. At almost 30" wide, 15 pounds, and the controls laid out left side P1, right side P2 biased, it pretty much has to be used on a table. Which is fine if that's your setup, but I play a lot of games in a recliner with the controller in my my lap, or at a desk...with my feet up on the desk...and the controller in my lap.

February 3

9 hours ago, Zonie said:

Edladdin controllers are $120-$220 and they are selling.

Yes they do, but a great many more people opt for a much, much cheaper (and smaller) solution, like an NES-esque controller, or a small adapter that allows for a Genesis controller to be used.

9 hours ago, Zonie said:

People are adding $20 extra to a $40 homebrew to get the box.

Yes, due to the mentality of the collector's "mind", that the more complete something is, the more it will be worth in the future when looking to sell. It's simply market speculation.

9 hours ago, Zonie said:

People are ordering loaded up Dragonfly carts with all the trimmings.

Multi-carts are a no-brainer, sales-wise. One small price, and you can play every game ever made, plus every new one that comes out later that is digitally distributed. What's more cost effective, a decked out Dragonfly/Concerto (which can play nearly every game)...or 1 copy each of Commando and Ikari Warriors (which is only 2 games)? Not to mention the obvious convenience of not having to store, and swap carts?

Additionally I would be concerned with (but nobody else would be probably) overall ergonomics of a controller with so many controls shoe-horned into it, unless it was fairly large. And there are lots of people that have "storage" concerns wherein they simply don't have room to store large controllers.

Again, I'm all for crazy, wild custom controllers, many I've built for simply 1 game...but it's the chicken and the egg. You can't have the games if the controllers don't exist, and the controllers won't get built, until the games exist. As @Swami mentions, there are plenty of Trak-Ball solutions available for the 7800...and how many people are fighting/rushing to release games that make use of them...and again, these Trak-Balls already exist.

February 3

The 5200 paddle controller that I built, had a dual-deck 500k ohm potentiometer, that at a press of a button, was wired with a single deck...for 500k, or with both decks in series...for 1M, and the 1M was more appropriate for playing Kaboom! and Super Breakout. The 500k value worked well for the first 2 or 3 levels of Kaboom!, (and for some tracks on Pole Position), but once the game gets moving, you want the quicker/faster response offered with the 1M value (or some similar value, higher than 500k). If memory serves, the biggest issue with trying to use that same paddle (with a plug/wiring adapter) on a 2600, was that the 5200 potentioneters and 2600 potentiometers are wired opposite of each other. So one controller built for the the 5200, when used on the 2600, will provide opposite control...where when you physically rotate the paddle knob right, your on-screen character moves left. I believe that @Shawn built several 2600-5200 paddle conversions, he would be able to shed more light on this, with regards to wiring orientation, and what potentiometer values that he used (as maybe he was using the stock 2600 Paddle controller 1M pots).

February 2

In the electronics world, a digital signal is a discrete value of either a 0 or a 1 (off, or on), and an analog signal can be any infinite value within the range of the hardware...0-20 mA, 4-20mA, 0-5V, 0-10V, and the likes. As every track-ball I've ever seen uses optical encoders (digital), I just assumed that they would all be outputting a digital signal. Then at that point it's just a matter of, if the software was written to additionally interpret and account for the speed at which the ball was spun, in addition to its direction. So if any particular track-ball controller is outputting a digital signal, and the console and it's software can accept and interpret these digital pulses (both speed and direction), then it is truly digital (by technical definition), but people may incorrectly describe this as analog (by using the word analog as a general adjective, vs. it's electronic technical definition).

As @mr_me mentions, the 5200 Trak-Ball controller apparently does convert it's digital encoder signals to an analog output to emulate the CX-52s internal analog potentiometers (I found this info on a few other websites). So then, is it know with certainty, that the CX-22 outputs a digital signal, (that again, some may describe as analog albeit technically incorrect) to the console, or is also converting it's digital pulses to an analog signal?

Additionally, to my knowledge, the ATARI Paddle Controllers, with their potentiometers, are truly analog by definition, while the ATARI Driving Controllers, with their encoders, are truly digital by definition, but again, some may refer to this as analog, because if you turn the Driving Controller slowly, your on-screen character will turn slowly.

So with all that said, and due to my own curiosity, does anybody know with certainty, if the ATARI CX-22 / CX-80, and the Coleco Roller Controller are outputting analog, or a digital signals, when in their respective "Trak" / "Roller" modes?

February 2

5 minutes ago, cedropoole said:

O' great sage, I may be wrong about Centipede working in Roller mode, but my research and personal experience indicates that my Atari CX22 is analog when the switch is set to 'T' and I own the AtariAge analog trak-ball hacks of Millipede, Missile Command, Missile Control and Centipede for the 7800. The CX80 is also analog.

Is the CX22 then converting the digital pulses of the encoders to an analog based signal to be read by the paddle lines of the ATARI consoles for some reason (as a 2-axis paddle)? If so then I stand corrected.

February 2

As a controller builder...I'm all for it, but in real life, its not likely going to happen. To convince a programmer to create a game that would require a "special" controller, there would need to be a large number of them in the hands of the players. To get a large number of "special" controllers into the hands of the players, they would need to be cheap, and there would need to be game(s) that make use of it. So if you can design/develop this controller that you're talking about, to have a selling price of say $25 - $50 (about what the market will bear for something like this), and you can get programmers to create great games that can use it...you've probably got something. But until then, unless you can build the controller and program the game...it's probably never going to happen.

February 2

29 minutes ago, cedropoole said:

There are only 7 games compatible with the analog roller mode Slither, Centipede, Mindwalls, Omega Race, Victory and WarGames

That's incorrect. Firstly, there is no "analog" mode on any track-ball type of controller, as it is making use of digital encoders. And secondly:

Slither

Victory

...can be played in true track-ball "Roller" mode.

...and

Centipede

Omega Race

War Games

...can only be played in "Joystick" mode (not "Roller" mode).

Plus the Victory and Omega Race arcade cabinets used a single axis rotary controller, so playing these with a track-ball is flat out "wrong."

February 1

So as we all know, there are those games that require an 8-way joystick, and then there are those games that work best with a 4-way joystick. So when building a custom arcade controller, you have a decision to make...install an 8-way, so that you can play all games with it (at the infuriating expense of playing 4-way games), or install a 4-way, and sacrifice compatibility with 8-way games (or have 2 different controllers). There are of course a few joysticks, that allow you to switch from 8-way to 4-way. Most of them require access to the bottom of the joystick so that you can re-orient the gate(s) (Japanese style sticks), or the actuator (Western style sticks), and there is even one that can be switched electronically (Japanese style). But what if you wanted a Western style joystick, like say a vintage/retro WICO, that could be both an 8-way or a 4-way, without the need for tools or extra parts, or any sort of disassembly. I'd tell you tough...its simply not possible. But what is possible, is this:

ColecoVision Twin Edition - VVG Enhanced Controller:

Built into a reinforced Hammond 20" aluminum enclosure, this controller features:

(1) WICO 8-way, leaf-switch joystick, (round restrictor)

(1) WICO 4-way, leaf-switch joystick, (diamond restrictor, "true" break-before-make contacts)

(2) 4-Piece, arcade original, leaf-switch push-buttons, (grey)

VVG CV Controller PCB w/ Keypad, w/ C&K switches (10) grey, (2) black, with legends

(1) NKK, 8-WAY / 4-Way rocker switch

The joysticks have a separation of 5.375" center-to-center (and both are left of the center line of the enclosure for ergonomics), which leaves enough room so that even when operating/manipulating the more inboard, 4-way joystick, there is basically no way that you can accidentally touch/hit the 8-way joystick (which could cause possible unwanted joystick inputs). But just to be safe, an NKK rocker switch was installed at the top of the control panel, which connects the COM lines to only the joystick that is selected/active, and disconnects the COM lines to the other. So now when you want you want to play Zaxxon or Venture, you toggle the switch to it's 8-WAY position and use the left joystick, and when you want to play Donkey Kong or Pac-Man Collection, you toggle the switch to it's 4-WAY position and use the right joystick. No need to turn off your console, unplug 1 controller and put it away, then grab another controller and plug it in, then turn your console back on...this is an all-in-one, tool-free, 8-way & 4-way arcade solution, that happens to be era-correct with true leaf-switch controls!

Of course, such a controller could also be built with different hardware should your preferences differ, including micro-switch based controls, bat knob levers, 4 S.A. buttons, Japanese controls, or the likes..you just have to dare to dream.

January 27

Wasn't one of the short videos shown, basically a video of the game "running", but the person who was recording the screen couldn't actually play the game, because he had to hold the camera? If only something like a "tripod" existed...or perhaps a 2nd person in existence in the world, wherein 1 person could hold the camera, and a 2nd person could pick up the controller and show some actual game-play! Eh, maybe next time in 30 years from now.

January 27

11 hours ago, atarilovesyou said:

Man, I'd love a pair of those rotary sticks for MAME. Ikari Warriors would be near the bottom of the list for me, though. Time Soldiers, Calibre 50, Guerilla War...oh yeah!

They could definitely be made, you would just need to install an I/O interface board, with the additional rotary joystick compatibility.

True story, I had never seen, or even heard of, CAL.50 (CALIBER-FIFTY), until a few months back...it apparently didn't make it to an arcade near me when I was a kid. But I check ebay listings with regularity, for original arcade control hardware, when a few months back I ran across a pair of what looked like Seimitsu LS-30 joysticks, but they had green octagon knobs (instead of the iconic yellow). So initially I was thinking that someone had 3D printed replacement knobs for these joysticks, in green, for some reason. After a little bit of research, I found out that they were specially made in green, for 1 game, and 1 game only, CAL.50. As a port for the Genesis exists, I contemplated buying them, but figured, nah, I didn't want to spend the money (they were listed with a starting price of $150 for the pair, and with a BIN of something like $200). But I kept an eye on the listing, in case they didn't sell, and then were re-listed at a lower price. Well apparently these green variants are incredibly rare (as they were only made/used for 1 game), and I believe the auction ending up selling for something like $650. Really wish I would have hit the BIN at $200!

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