Rhindle The Red

quote: Originally posted by Mindfield: [QB]My question with regards to scanning is, exactly where is the line that separates a scan from falling under "fair use" to being an infringement of copyright? they are still reproductions in their entirety, the same as if one were to digitally sample an entire album from vinyl or cassette to burn on CD, and so must be subject to the same laws if those boxes themselves and/or the artwork they bore (including trademarked corporate logos) was copyrighted. Even the box I'd worked on for Airworld could be considered infringing because I use the trademarked Swordquest logo, the Atari fuji, and the stylized Atari name.QB] I believe the relevant sections for boxes are (1), (2), and (4) above. According to criteria (1) (the purpose and character of the use) AtariAge use of the box art is not commercial in nature. And although this could be stretching the concept (but I think not) it is also for educational purposes. Criteria (2) speaks of the nature of the copyrighted work. The copyrighted work in this case is a box, not a flat image. As I stated, the images are not good enough (or complete enough) to recreate a box. Criteria (4) speaks to the effect upon potential value. The value of actual 1980's boxes are not diminished in the least by the reprinting of their artwork here. As to the small pictures at web stores, I think that's mainly a bandwidth issue. No one who's getting into the bootleg CD business is getting their images from amazon. They buy the commercial product and scan it themselves. Instruction manuals are a little trickier, as a claim could be made that they exist to instruct legal owners of the use of their games. A claim could then be made that reprinting them diminishes the value of the originals. But this aspect of the claim has already been dealt with. Nintendo and Sega sued rental stores for copying instruction booklets for inclusion with rental games whose original instructions had been destroyed. The rental companies claimed that their reprinting (or summarizing, which the game companies also objected to) was fair use, as the copies were not of sufficient quality to be mistaken for originals, nor were they represented as such. The courts found in the rental companies' favor. Again we can then look at the (1) purpose, which is to provide instructions for those who have none. Since they are not currently available for purchase from the original companies, fair use can probably be claimed, since there is no profit. Your comparison to burning CDs is not correct. A digital copy of a piece of paper is not a true replacement of that piece of paper. I can't take a .jpg of an Adventure box and put it on my shelf. This is touched upon in the (2) nature of the copyrighted work section. Part of the copyright is that it is a box. A digital box is no replacement. A CD, on the other hand is very much a replacement/alternative to vinyl or cassette. They are considered to be of the same ilk. So moving from one to the other is just as infringing (under the circumstances where it is) as copying the pages of a book at Kinko's. Also, remember the most significant aspect of copyright violation: distribution. Most of the limitations on copyright revolve around people being able to make copies for their own use. If I have a CD, I can copy it to keep the original safe, or so I can listen to it in my car, where I don't have a CD player. But legally I can't give it to someone else (even without profit - (4) effect on market value). That's distribution and that's where the s**t hits the fan. As to the Airworld box art, the issue for you (and anyone else working on an unauthorized sequel to a classic game) is not primarily one of copyright. You correctly mention it yourself. Your problem is one of Trademark law. 'Swordquest' is probably still trademarked by Atari/Infogrames. I mentioned in another thread that Adventure is probably one of the few safe titles, as Adventure as a video game title pre-dates the 2600 version by some years. Rhindle, Grundle, and Yorgle, however, in all likelihood still belong to Atari (both copyrighted and possibly Trademarked). You cannot copyright a title. This is why no one had to pay Atari for the movie Water World. But you can Trademark words and phrases for particular use, such as Tempest, Defender & Asteroids. All perfectly ordinary words, but with specific meanings to video games. You definitely are on shaky ground using the Fuji. Infogrames clearly places value in it and might take a dim view on people using it. I don't know what they think of the CGE guys using it (or what Taito thinks of them releasing Elevator Action at all) but I suspect they cleared that hurdle before proceeding. (At least I hope they did.) My advice to all you guys out there working on these things is to get the blessings of the owners.

quote: Originally posted by Eckhard Stolberg: Speaking of the RealSports series, my silver label version of "Football - RealSports Soccer" says trademark of Taito America Corp. Anyone know why that is? Is there a RealSports arcade game by Taito that Atari licensed or something? So does mine. If you look closely, you'll see there's no asterisk on the label for the footnote to refer to. It's probably just another Tramiel-era misprint, like "Use with Joystick Controllers" on paddle games, etc.

As a side note, the inclusion of box photos, scans of instruction manuals and the like is probably covered under the "fair use" provision quote: § 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include- (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors. AtariAge uses images of boxes, instructions, etc. to give a representation of what these things were like back in the day. The images are not the originals and are not even of high enough quality to be used to make copies that appeared to be originals. (I mean, they're good, but they're not that good.) ROMs, however, are exact copies of the originals and still have intrinsic value. While I know of no companies that still use the same instruction booklets and boxes that they did in the 1980's, they do still use the code. The original 2600 Pitfall was incorporated into many of the versions of Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure, but not all. In fact, IGN knocked a few points off the Gameboy Advance version for not including it. This demonstrates that the ROM not only still has value, it is still in use and is affected by section (4) - the issue of the effect upon the value of the copyrighted work.

Okay, I went to the U.S. Copyright Office web site (useful thing, the Internet) and found some detailed information on Copyright. The current Copyright laws state that copyright begins at the time of creation and extends 70 years after the creator's death. In the case of works for hire, "the duration of copyright will be 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is shorter." Since the cutoff date for this law is 1978, most Atari 2600 works would fall into this category. For items published or registered on or before January 1, 1978, we have to go back two laws to find the answer. Pre-1976 all copyrights existed from the time of publication or registration and last 28 years. During the final year the copyright was eligible for renewal for another 28 years. The Copyright Act of 1976 changed the renewal period to 47 years, giving a total coverage of 75 years. As of 1992, renewal registration was optional and all copyrights automatically renewed. Public Law 105-298 enacted in 1998, extended the renewal period another twenty years, for a total of 95 years from the time of original publication or registration. This would cover any games created before 1978. Therefore all games made for the 2600 are currently under copyright to someone (even if they don't know it or care). As for copying, Here it is word for word: quote: § 117. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs (a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.-Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided: (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or (2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful. (b) Lease, Sale, or Other Transfer of Additional Copy or Adaptation.-Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or other transfer of all rights in the program. Adaptations so prepared may be transferred only with the authorization of the copyright owner. © Machine Maintenance or Repair.-Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner or lessee of a machine to make or authorize the making of a copy of a computer program if such copy is made solely by virtue of the activation of a machine that lawfully contains an authorized copy of the computer program, for purposes only of maintenance or repair of that machine, if- (1) such new copy is used in no other manner and is destroyed immediately after the maintenance or repair is completed; and (2) with respect to any computer program or part thereof that is not necessary for that machine to be activated, such program or part thereof is not accessed or used other than to make such new copy by virtue of the activation of the machine. (d) Definitions.-For purposes of this section- (1) the "maintenance" of a machine is the servicing of the machine in order to make it work in accordance with its original specifications and any changes to those specifications authorized for that machine; and (2) the "repair" of a machine is the restoring of the machine to the state of working in accordance with its original specifications and any changes to those specifications authorized for that machine. So you are right about being able to posess copies of games you legally own. You can even "authorize" others to make them for you. This, however, is a far cry from openly offering ROMs to anyone who wants them, with or without a disclaimer. You say you "know of no law that prevents you from storing your roms on a website, even tho webmasters have been successfuly sued over the intent of their sites". But there must be a law (probably this one) because otherwise they couldn't have been successfully sued. As you can see, it clearly states that the "Lease, Sale, or Other Transfer of Additional Copy or Adaptation" is only allowed along with "the copy from which such copies were prepared" and with "the authorization of the copyright owner." I think you'd be hard pressed to say that you are "archiving" ROMs on a Web Site (where they are open to everyone) and not "transferring" them (because anyone can take them).

I just noticed how much I've written on this subject recently on AtariAge I certainly hope that if I (or someone else) do all that research and come up with an answer, I don't turn out to be wrong. [ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Rhindle The Red ]

Although "statute of limitations" is not the correct term (that usually refers to the amount of time for the pursuit of criminal or civil charges) the concept is correct. All copyrights are expected to eventually run out. But from the time copyright began to be incorporated into law, it always encompassed at least the life of the creator. (This is what I was thinking of when I said copyright never runs out. Obviously I phrased it wrong. Sorry.) Works by creators such as Shakespeare, Mary Shelley, and others were not really protected because the copyright laws (if they existed at all) just were not effective. As an example, in Shakespeare's day all you needed was a copy of a text and noone could stop you from printing it. (Unless you were under the patronage of a powerful member of the aristocracy.) I believe the most recent amendments to copyright law extend twenty-five years after the creator's death with the ability of his/her heirs to renew for another 30-50 years. (I haven't really looked this stuff up recently.) The length of the copyright is continually extended due to intense lobbying from companies like Disney, who are terrified of what will happen when Mickey Mouse falls into the public domain. There will be no way to stop any unscrupulous company from not only releasing crappy videos like they already do (because the films themselves have fallen into the public domain), but making their own Mickey Mouse cartoons, over which Disney will have no power. Disney, of course, has the additional protection of a Trade Mark on Mickey, but that could only prevent someone from making a movie called "Mickey Mouse and the Whore House" not "Cartoon Fun at the Whore House" with a character in it that looks like Mickey, sounds like Mickey and, perhaps, is even named "Mickey." The character will be lost. Corporate copyright is usually even stronger than personal copyright, at least in its initial period. I believe these days the initial period of time is some one hundred years for works for hire. (Mickey btw is not classified as being wfh as Walt created him before incorporating Disney. Therefore Mickey's 'expiration' date is keyed to the death of Walt Disney.) Corporate copyright may also be able to be renewed. As for any new copyright law enacted in the 90's not affecting work of the 80's, this is simply not true. Changes to copyright laws are always retroactive, affecting any item still under copyright. They do not, however, affect items that have fallen out of copyright. So if an item's copyright expired in 1999 and a law was passed in 2000 extending copyright another ten years, it would not go back under copyright. But something that would expire in 2001 would now have until 2011. Ultimately, I think all of the Atari 2600 ROMS are, in fact, covered by some kind of copyright. Either by a still existing company (Activision, Atari/Infogrames/Sega, etc.), the company who licensed it (Lucasfilm, Paws, Inc., etc.), or the person who wrote it. Many have been freely released for distribution. Many companies are so completely lost into the distant past that there's noone interested in pursuing them. Many are still carefully guarded (such as Telegames and the ColecoVision ROMs they claim.) This is something that needs to be looked at seriously, with an eye towards settling the issue. If I can find enough free time, I will try to track down the relevant laws, so as to conclude exactly what the status of these ROMs are. Unfortunately, I just started work on a show I'm directing (>>>plug ShakeCo.com plug<<<) and won't be free for such an endeavor until probably October. If no one has put forth the effort by then, I'll gladly tackle it. [ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Rhindle The Red ]

quote: Originally posted by atari70s: hey marco well i think u need to refresh the copywrite on things like the title every liek 3 to o5 years. The law was different in the eighties, but according to current law, copyright never runs out. At that time, copyright notices were required, by law, in order for the copyright to be retained. The years were updated regularly, just to ensure anyone who was unclear that the copyright was still in effect. Back then, if you left the copyright notice off a product, you could be in danger of causing it to fall into the public domain unintentionally. This is no longer the case. Now, someone continues to hold copyright on any item from the time of creation onward, regardless of any notice. And this law was retroactive, so cases of missed copyright notices from the eighties will not damage a copyright today. Most 2600 games (or any games for that matter) are considered what is called "work for hire" so the copyright goes to the company for whom the game was made. However, in a case such as 'Garfield' the copyright continues to be held by Paws, Inc. just as it was at the time. That is why a special arrangement was set up with Paws, Inc. to allow the release of the Garfield ROM. (You are legally allowed to download the ROM and retain ONE copy of the ROM on a cartridge for personal use only.) So, certainly any licensed games (Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Alien, etc.) are still technically owned by their respective companies. Something like 'Lost Luggage', on the other hand, is trickier. The company, Apollo, no longer exists. The copyright then either goes into the public domain, or, more likely, reverts to the designer/programmer who created the game. The only was to find out which is to check the contracts under which Apollo employees worked. This sort of thing was usually delineated there. As to the point about not making money, that doesn't hold water. If a company or individual is aware of someone using their trademarked or copyrighted material and they do not pursue the offender, they are in danger of losing their trademark or copyright. This is why companies have to go after what seems like harmless individuals with such vigor. If they don't, when a truly damaging individual does the same, they can point to the company's lack of prior action and get off. It is a very grey area. Unfortunately, this issue will not be settled completely until there is a court case to decide precedent. And, unfortunately, that means someone will have to sue someone for copyright infringement. I am always worried that this is going to happen, especially considering how often old games are resurrected these days. Sooner or later, someone is going to be of the opinion that all this free swapping of ROMs infringes their copyright. The issue may then finally be settled, but it's going to be ugly for whoever is on the receiving end of that lawsuit.

quote: Originally posted by Tempest: I don't know what happened. I could understand them being out of the Tele-Games exclusives, but I also ordered some common games I need (Brutal Sports Football for instance) and they just sent me a note that said they're out of stock on Jag games. Same here. I also ordered a Japanes N64 game and here's the entire text of their e-mail: "Dear customer, Unfortunately, we are currently out of stock on the requested item/s. Apologies Another World" I mean, do they actually have any games? They have a very clean shop. It's certainly uncontaminated by games.

Bastiches! I hate places that don't update their inventory lists. Oh well. It's almost like the 'Reef Store' dream. (Lord knows I've had enough of them.) I guess we just woke up.

I posted this in the 2600 section (because it isn't really about programming, per se) but got no response. Now I'll try here. I've searched for a reasonably priced EPROM programmer, but they always seem to be expensive or incomplete/unsupported. I found this one on the Web and was wondering if anyone knows if it will work for the purposes of making custom 2600 carts. The Pocket Programmer The price seems good (considering it is new and comes with support software) so I'd like anyone's comments on the feasability/quality of this product. If this one doesn't seem to be of value, does anyone have any other ideas how to get a good, reasonably priced EPROM burner? Thanks.

Cool. I just ordered Raiden, Worms, I-War (it's cheap), Zero 5, Breakout 2000, Towers II, Soccer Kid, Fever Pitch and a Japanese N64 game (Let's Smash Tennis). I still averaged (after the shipping) under $14.00 a game. Woo-hoo!

On a side note, shouldn't Infogrames sue HBO over the Bryant Gumbel show "RealSports"? Or should we just list it as a TV Show 'based on a video game'? For the record- Favorite: Basketball Least favorite: Baseball [ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: Rhindle The Red ]

quote: Originally posted by Tempest: Rhindle - That link doesn't seem to work Sorry. This is the correct one: Rochester Collectors Emporium I'll e-mail it too.

They've got a 'hands on' article up now. GameSpot

I won't pre-order, but I'll get one later on to further my home brew work. That is, of course, if I ever find a job.

quote: Originally posted by Nicewun: [QB]Over here in Aus. hardly anyone collects Atari stuff so you get everything really cheap.QB] Unfortunately, when I've dealt with people from Australia the shipping costs are so high to the U.S. that it almost completely negates any savings. And on a note about PAL/NTSC compatibility. Sometimes it's the system that is keyed to the display and not the game. As far as I know the Atari Jaguar is cross compatible. I know for a fact that the Sega Saturn and Dreamcast PAL discs work in an NTSC system as I have PAL Doom for Saturn and PAL Expendable (Millenium Soldier) for the Dreamcast. They work fine with the same converter I use to play Japanese NTSC games.

My favorite item isn't a game at all. It's my Atari 2800 Super Breakout manual. I think I told this somewhere else, but I got it in a pile of manuals that were $.25 each. I told the guy selling it what it was and I could see him visibly pale at the thought of what he could have gotten for it. My River Patrol (my only rarity 10) is also quite nice.

Tempest, Did you get my e-mail with a link to my list of available games? If not, it's at Rochester Collectors Emporium Let me know

I've searched for a reasonably priced EPROM programmer, but they always seem to be expensive or incomplete/unsupported. I found this one on the Web and was wondering if anyone knows if it will work for the purposes of making custom 2600 carts. The Pocket Programmer The price seems good (considering it is new and comes with support software) so I'd like anyone's comments on the feasability/quality of this product. If this one doesn't seem to be of value, does anyone have any other ideas how to get a good, reasonably priced EPROM burner? Thanks.

quote: Originally posted by atari70s: isnt putting a home made label on a cart bad and discredits value to the cart. I agree with Albert. You just value it like a cart with no end label. I buy the games to own and play them. A lack of an end label doesn't make me feel the cart is not worth owning. I mean, I ain't giving up my River Patrol 'cause it doesn't have an end label.

Oh, and as for the other stuff; the mug, bumper sticker and keychain are fine, but I regularly wear the hat and t-shirt so they're not really in archival condition.

I'll get the scans to you tomorrow or Monday. The Jaguar Official Gamers Guide is available from amazon. Here's the link.

The auction ended on May 12, but today (July 21 for those of you keeping score) I finally received my three Brazilian Atari 2600 carts. All CCE, I got Jaw Breaker, Bank Heist and Frogger. All together now: "Brazil… Our hearts were entertaining June We stood beneath the amber moon And softly murmured, “Someday soon” We kissed And clung together. Then Tomorrow was another day, The morning found me miles away With still a million things to say. Now As twilight dims the sky above Recalling thrills of our love There’s one thing I’m certain of… Return… I will… To old… Brazil…” Lyrics taken from the Sinatra version, so they may clash with your memory, lyrics found on the web or the actual lyrics. [ 07-22-2001: Message edited by: Rhindle The Red ]

You could try double sided tape. The only probelm is it will sometimes come loose in hot weather.

quote: Originally posted by Albert: Does anyone know of any catalogs that feature Jaguar games? Albert, I got an Atari Jaguar catalog from goatari.com a few years back (also a keychain, mug, bumber stickers, baseball hat and t-shirt. - $19.99 - sweeeet! ) The catalog lists some unreleased games (like Brett Hull Hockey, Tiny Toons, etc.). I'll scan any of that stuff you want. Just give me the word.