Kismet
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Posts posted by Kismet
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Man, you've had rotten luck with SNES consoles. Mine was a Goodwill find, purchased in 2004 with World/All Stars Combo cart, three random other games, and two controllers. You can see it next to the SNES Mini. There's almost no yellowing at all.
I don't have the mobo revision info handy but mine is a two chip with the a/v circuit located on the main board. My SNES lacked the cartridge lock but I bought a locking mechanism from NES Repair shop and added it back in. Anyhow the SNES seems just as reliable as any Nintendo made console. Since Nintendo hardware used Japanese caps as opposed to Taiwanese knockoffs, they generally don't suffer from capacitor rot like other early 90s game consoles.
The APU model has only 1 chip for the audio instead of separate S-SMP and S-DSP.
The GPM-02 doesn't have the "metal can" around the APU, but otherwise simply has an identical layout to CPU-01 on the mainboard. The SFC, and the three dead SNES's are SHVC-CPU-01, some have the big cap, some don't. GPM-02 has S-PPU2 C , S-CPU B and S-DSP A. So this is the best model you can get before you get into the combined APU (RGB models) and 1-Chip models. The 1-chip models have a better output I hear, but are less compatible. The CPU-01 models may have S-CPU or S-CPU A. http://projectvb.com/nss/logs.htmbad CPU ( S-CPU or S-CPU A) indicates the CPU to be the most common reason of SNES death. It's too bad you can't just pop it out and replace it since it's not an off the shelf part (I have to wonder if you could take a cpu from a clone, as it seems like "most compatibility" is better than dead.)
Hence the base line for the Super NT needs to be at least as good as GPM-02 with S-CPU B. However I believe the encoder in the 1-chip models is probably better, which is why the 1-chip models are more coveted despite being less compatible with previous models.
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Oh there are ones that don't yellow? Who knew.
While mine were never so lucky, I don't think I would have ever called them "yellow".. maybe it's just me but they always just looked more a dingy discolored than anything. 
You can tell which is which by the color of the cartridge slot door and the power/reset buttons.
The SFC on the left is also yellow, note the SFC controllers are slightly yellow as well, these were the controllers shipped with the SFC. The SNES on the top is the newest of them, which is CPU-GPM-02 (the controller is from my original launch-era SNES.) The two SNES below, the middle one are "bad plastic" types of yellow of different intensity. The GPM-02 on top I bought off eBay. The SFC I bought off eBay and immediately died. The SNES in the middle came from a local used games shop and was bought dead, the one on the right is my sisters which died years ago, and she bought it that color about 12 years ago, and it sat in storage. My original SNES isn't shown because I had to destroy the shell to get into it, as something metal had been lodged in one screw hole.
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The problem is when the monitor turns off, the system changes clock modes and starts outputting RGB, and the everdrive can't handle a clock switchover. Just use the built in stuff on the jailbreak mode instead of the everdrive?
I don't have these devices, but it seems to me that maybe this is fixable in firmware (or the everdrive's firmware.) It seems the bug is really in the everdrive, but a work-around could be to have the NT Mini firmware not change the clock until the power is cycled when in PAL mode. Does this exist on NTSC?
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It looks like there also might be a hybrid FPGA/ARM in the works for RetroArch, read the discussion here: Has anybody used Zynq for FPGAgaming?
You may also want to check the recent discussion at byuu's [higan developer] message board on whether FPGA is emulation or not in the context of the Super Nt announcement.
Oh lovely, 8 pages of arguing about the definition of emulation.
Though this on page 9:
The 240p that is in the HDMI standards isn't the 240p you're thinking of, though. The "240p" used by consoles included the blank fields in their output height, which the 240p standard does not (as expected, since "progressive" means "use all the fields all the time"). A hypothetical console that output the actual 240p standard would produce a half-height image crammed up at the top of the screen.This is absolutely correct. If you connect a real SNES using the Luma signal from the S-Video to the Green cable on a component-capable television, what you get is 1440x240x59.97 , if the television works correctly, it will still fill the screen. The HD Retrovision cable basically does this for the SNES Component video cable. On my capture hardware it produces a 1440x240 image that has to be stretched to fit.
Back on topic.
If we really wanted a general-purpose FPGA console/computer, someone has to actually keep on top of what is put out by the FPGA manufacturers and compile working cores for each one, while also producing a PCB with the necessary parts. That's a lot of work for a fringe market. Even if the cores were open-source, that just leads to forking and feature creep. Some OSS projects manage to herd catty devs.
Like the NT Mini basically proved there is a market for a FPGA console, so I'm glad Analogue took a risk and built it, but they kinda overkilled it, thus demands for the same features on the Super NT. Had the NT Mini not had the analog outputs, there would likely not some people begging for it on the Super NT, but then again you have to remember why the Analogue NT existed in the first place (original NES parts were used before.) So you can't just cut a feature after it originally had it. The Super NT however is not introduced with the analog outputs, and, the SNES in the first place actually generates a RGB signal, so that is the native format, though not directly usable.
I expect to see the same (game console/computer cores) features the NT Mini has. I don't care too much about analog output, especially since most old CRT's were never that good in the first place.
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Regarding save states and other features that we may miss from emulators such as more advanced shaders/filters, rewind, network gameplay, fancy menus etc. Do you think kevtris that incorporating something like an ARM processor into the Zimba 3000 design might allow for implementing some of this stuff? There are FPGA boards where an ARM processor seems to be really well integrated with the FPGA part, check out this discussion, for instance (you even have been mentioned there
): Has anybody used Zynq for FPGAgaming?Can you see any drawbacks of such a solution?
I actually don't see any logical reason why save states are impossible. It's a FPGA, it can be halted and dump the state of the ram and registers. How do you think the FPGA is programmed in the first place?
As for enhancements, other than game-genie type of hack-ability, it's unlikely that anything else will ever exist because that is outside the scope of what the SNES could do. My personal opinion of shaders/filters is that people don't use them and don't like them, except in a few edge cases where it's taking advantage of the GPU to scale up 1080p, 2160p and beyond where otherwise the CPU of the emulator would not keep up. I'm one of those people who have no love for CRT filters, and think most de-pixelizing filters (xBRZ) are barking up the wrong tree, and look exceptionally bad. If you want this kind of thing, stick with the laggy software emulators.
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How hard would it be to create an adapter that lets you plug Nintendo's new SNES classic controllers into an original SNES / Super Nt ?
The controllers are really nice, and feel indistinguishable from OG controllers with the exception that they're brand new. I've now got two of them, and when Feb rolls around it would be nice to put them to good use!
Probably not hard at all. The source code for interfacing with the wii extension controller's is available, and people have been making the SNES controllers work with everything since the 90's.
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For those thinking that this is just a reshelled NT mini, actually the new FPGA chip opens a lot more possibilities.
From what I understood from Kevtris the Mini didn't have enough FPGA space to run an HDMI upscaler with more complex cores (e.g. Minimig AGA on MiST takes all the space without upscaler). But the new Super NT should be in par even if the upscaler takes half of the chip.
So in a way this is a needed upgrade towards having a true Z3000 type of machine. If one day a developer API and USB support becomes available, this could theoretically receive ports of cores from the MiST.
I'm excited to see what comes out of this. Even without core store or 3rd party, if it sells well it would establish a nicer price point for these kind of machines.
I think it's too early to predict what the Super NT is ultimately capable of, but it would likely fall short of what the Z3K is ultimately what Kevtris wants to make at some point. But since the SNES was expandable via the cartridge slot in the first place, it's possible to do some firmware voodoo and plug in a cartridge that switches the internal FPGA into a frame-doubler/scaler and uses the cartridge FPGA to replicate something else. Like you could do "Super Gameboy" type of cartridges with smaller FPGA's.
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Sounds good, would the HDMI-to-VGA converter produce lag? I am not at all familiar with how HDMI works and no idea what is in these converters, is it a circuit/decoder/encoder widget of some kind or just a pin adapter?
Not typically no. It depends if the HDMI support on the console recognizes passive DVI-A connected (eg VGA) or is strictly DVI-D signaling. You'd need a way to grab the audio if it's HDMI only. Most HDMI devices have optical output because of separate audio home theater systems.
A powered converter would be a framebuffer device and certainly be more expensive and introduce more latency.
For people who don't know, the OSSC and Framemeister devices are FPGA devices too. If we're were really smart, there would be an expansion bus (Z3K ideas) for plugging in a separate upscaler/analog-output part, since it's a feature that most people won't need.
And let's be honest, most of the people who buy the NT Mini and Super NT are probably going to use the Everdrive/SD2SNES carts for most of their games just so they don't have to take them out of storage, if they even own them at all. We're not going to see very many of these https://www.polygon.com/2017/8/30/16230658/street-fighter-2-snes-cartridge-rerelease-capcom-iam8bittype of productions, though I'm a little worried that it might encourage more counterfeit carts on eBay.
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No not a good match. I ordered yesterday and my shipping charge was $31 (to Louisiana). It seems shipping is all over the place, and people have gotten different results at different times of the day. Why do all these botique companies have to use the most expensive courrier options available, instead of just USPS flat rate or regional rate Priority/Readypost? RetroUSB uses USPS IIRC. Shipping on the AVS cost $15 from California to my house.
Maybe they want to make sure you get it. That said DHL is actually worse than UPS and Fedex for damaging packages. 32.35USD shipping to here. My order is in the 5000's.
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OK Kismet, what's your thinking as to why the "core store" isn't part of Analogue's marketing?
Probably to avoid appearing like a piracy device. As long as it's never shipped with the ability to play pirated roms out of the box, it's no different from any other clone as long as it doesn't say "Nintendo" on it.
Like, even if they did, they would never ship with rom files unlike the pirates selling JB NES/SNES Classic Mini's, for more than the price of the Super NT.
The home recording (VCR) boom in the 80's basically proved you can't ban a device just because it's capable of piracy, you can only stop a piracy-capable device if it's only purpose is to play pirate software. Hence the cartridge slot. It doesn't matter that it can play pirated software, it only matters that it can play legitimate software.
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So, hypothetically speaking, if more cores were to be added to the Super NT how far could it go?
Genesis?
TG16?
Neo Geo?
Jaguar?
Any ideas?
Well it's a Cyclone V A4 instead of the A2 in the original NT.
So that's going from 25K to 49K LE's. The SNES core logic should fit in about 30K.
So in theory anything that would work on the MiniMig (8K LE ), MiST ( 25K LE https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki/FPGA%20Projects) but not MiSTer (110K LE) could be ported to it.
There are of course dependencies on how the actual PCB is laid out. Like you can't connect a USB keyboard+Mouse to a device with no USB ports. So most "computer" cores would not be usable without the Super NT being actually aware of the Bluetooth controller and ability to pair a keyboard/mouse to it. Since there is a real SNES mouse, that is less of a problem.
The only thing I'm worried about is the power draw. The real SNES with aftermarket power supplies tends to die because it doesn't have 900ma of power when you put in an expansion chip game and/or multi-tap adapters.
Interesting timing seeing the Japanese FPGA project get a release http://pgate1.at-ninja.jp/SNES_on_FPGA/index.html#releasereleased (binary only) for the DE0-CV which is a 49K LE $150 FPGA board. It's the same FPGA kevtris is using for the Super NT. The fitting report (located in the zip file) says it takes 69% of the logic an 67% of the memory.
Now consider that the SD2SNES is also just a Xilinx Spartan FPGA (XC3S400-PQ208) with 8K LE, that suggests that at the minimum it should be possible to have the FPGA expansion chips assuming that extra space isn't being used for HDMI scaling (which is why the AVS couldn't do 1080p but the NT Mini could.)
This is all speculation mind you. If it's possible to FPGA all the SNES expansion chips except ST018(arm core) that's just fine. If it doesn't, that's fine too, that will leave the difficulty in doing so up to people doing SD2SNES and similar carts.
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Everybody wants the "core store," but you can understand why they wouldn't want to promise it in their pre-sell announcements, right? Nintendo's lawyers (and probably the lawyers from shambling corpse of Atari) would be up their ass so fast and so hard, the product might not come out at all.
I have faith that Analogue/Kevtris do the right thing by us, and have already put my money on it. People who want to wait and see are playing it safe, but could run the risk of missing out or having to wait longer to get a machine.
Not likely,
It is not illegal to sell a product that is compatible with another brand's product. It is illegal however to hijack the trademarks. Hence you can have any product on eBay with "Nintendo" in the title or description taken down if it's not an officially licensed product. Likewise the color schemes are trademarked
Nintendo has been trademarking the button layouts and color schemes for their devices for use on the "mini" releases, so that's the only way you get wacked. Hence I believe the color scheme for the SNES white/purple Super NT isn't the North America color scheme. Likewise the SFC/Euro color scheme trademarked only the button colors, and since it doesn't ship with the controllers, no harm no foul. In the event that Nintendo gets ticked off, Analogue only needs to discontinue the models using the same color schemes.
Likewise 8bitdo doesn't sell the controllers as "Super Nintendo Controllers", they're sold as bluetooth game controllers, and there are bluetooth adapters for the actual SNES/SNES-clones/etc. Here's the actual trademark for the SNES controller https://www.trademarkia.com/logo-87636582.htmlfiled 11 days ago.
And if we're being honest here, I think the SNES controller and NES controller "logos" in those trademark filings are meant for the "compatibility" logos of games since you can swap the controllers on the Mini consoles with Wii controllers.
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A flashy animation would be appropriate here:
Looking back, I'm starting to regret my choice of "NA purple" as there's too much white in it. The gray accents of the SF model are more tonally balanced but I rushed my purchase through as I didn't know how long preorders would stay open. Hopefully the final unit is SNES light gray and not Wii white.
I picked the SF model (remember it doesn't come with controllers), and I have both FC and SNES controllers so I don't really need any.
That said, in my rush to pre-order it I was almost wishing I had picked the black one, but then it would have the same problem as other solid-black home entertainment boxes in which you can't see them at all and trip over them.
Anyway I have a working GPM-02 SNES that I spent money on a Componet cable for, so I can do some comparisons when I get this using the same SA7160 capture card.
The SNES Mini classic is still on my list of things to get, because input latency needs to be compared. But I think ultimately it's going to be something for kids to play.
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I cannot comment on such things at this time.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. Yes it works.
Hmm, How about MSU support (SD2SNES), seems like it would need to digitize the analog audio to send it over HDMI, or the SD2SNES could be "updated" to detect the Super NT and pass a digital signal.
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I would imagine most people whether their reasons are personal or personal gain will buy one if they ever found it on the shelf somewhere at MSRP. I'm resolved to grab one or two more if I ever find them but I won't be going out of my way either for it. I'd like one for when my little girl is a few years older and more trained on games to move up from her NES Classic to this, and just another I can chop shop up with hakchi so I can leave the one I have unmolested. At the least just one for her would be fine either way.
What is the point of installing hakchi on it? Doesn't that just turn it into a laggy retropie/retroarch system? That's like buying a new car and putting in your old 8-track player.
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Being the digital pack-rat that I am, I have about 2 decades worth of downloaded junk on my computer. I've got two versions of the 16-bit DOS EXE file. Neither runs on Windows 7 x64 but Avast says they are clean. I've got a 64.5kb file (MARIO.EXE modify date 1997) and a 78.0kb file (SUPER_MARIO.EXE modify date 2000). I believe one of them is more complete than the other. Sadly I don't have DOSbox or an older computer to test with, so I can't verify the content.
EDIT: Tested it in DOSBOX and it works!
Super_Mario.exe is simply a self extractor that extracts Mario.exe 1UP tip.
Hop on the first Goomba you see underneath the palm tree. If done correctly, a 1UP will appear! Okay my memory is rusty, but I swear if you jump in the air aided by a goomba bounce somewhere is a 1up in the first stage...
You could have just linked to the author's site.
http://www.wieringsoftware.nl/mario/
Source code included.
This is the MiSTer, a successor project built with the Terasic DE10-Nano board, which has a Cyclone V FPGA at 110K LE, HDMI output, 1GB of DDR RAM, and a 900Mhz ARM CPU.
The board itself is available from a big manufacturer, but also needs (for many cores) a little add-on board to give it SDRAM (for faster access).
Available cores so far are new PC 486 core (with soundblaster), plus a few ported from the original MiST codebase.
Board itself costs $130 and the add-on a few bucks (a few people make them on the forums or you can make your own with the available schematics).
It is a bit more hobbyist-ortiented than the MiST, but isn't too complex to setup and is in active development, It's only been out for 2-3 months as a fully open project.
MiSTer wiki: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki
Terasic Board: http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&No=1046
The DE10-Nano might be large enough for the SNES. jwdonal's VeriSNES is on a DE2-115 which has 114K LE and the DE10-Nano has 115K. But that might be an apples/oranges comparison.
Emulating an x86 up to a 486 might be viable if you can emulate a MT-32/AWE32/GUS, otherwise a FPGA x86 only solves the same latency/timing problem the FPGA consoles have. However just watching that video tells me that that even if the MiSTer emulates a 486, it might not have the space to emulate much else.
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Silly uninformed question that feels stupid to have to ask but what the hey...
The USB power for the SNES Classic mini is like, zero feet long (okay it's about three feet), and I could use more due to the placement (especially with those unbelievably short controller cords, which I'll be getting an extension for). Is it ok for me to use a USB extension on this, or would that dilute the power to the system enough to cause trouble? Or perhaps I just need to buy a generic, longer mini-USB to standard USB cord for this?
Just get an extension cord for the wall outlet if you're concerned, but in all seriousness, USB extension cords depends on the gauge of the wire used, not the length, because thinner wires run hotter. So if you're worried, make sure the USB extension cord is thick, and not one of those zippy-ribbon kind.
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Is Youtube ruining retro gaming? Nah. Youtubers make the content they want to see themselves (or see themselves in.)
There are LP's with commentary, LP's without. There are people who enjoy the hardware or the feelies, and people who just want to document/archive how the game is supposed to work for that day someone wants to re-release it or reboot it for a new audience. I can't explain how many times I found out there was X version of a game and wanted to see it or try it on an emulator only to discover that either there is no emulator or that it has a notoriously difficult setup process or language barrier.
Some of the content I have on my Youtube channel is just commentless playthroughs of games with the emulator tweaked for video capture so that it can be watched on a HDTV/4K TV in the right aspect ratio and less audio noise had it been captured from the real hardware or stock GOG install. Some licensed games are simply not available anymore and there will never be any way for people who didn't buy it when it was new to play it. The largest justification for people to record video of games can be seen by how the VCR made archiving all sorts of media possible, from trailers and commercials to TV shows that later got released on DVD with all their licensed music stripped out.
I also have to say that having the game play in the background while you do work is a great way of staying focused when there is no rambling over the music.
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My TV has a Cable Card slot, but I've never been able to find one that works to use it. Are those even supported anymore?
I've never seen a TV with a cablecard slot, and no cableco in Canada supports them (no in-the-clear digital channels either), my guess is that US market TV's that were DTV ready had them, and all other markets didn't.
Also keep in mind that CRT's are calibrated for the magnetic fields that they are shipped to, so if you take your CRT to the other side of the continent you end up with different magnetic distortions in the screen.
Like, I do not miss CRT's one bit. If it wasn't for the utterly poor quality game input on HD and UHD screens, I'd almost say there's a market for a legitimate "gaming" screen, which is so far filled with TN monitors with poor color gamuts.
Veering back on target, I asked the local BestBuy how many SNES Mini's they had, and they said about 80, and they were gone before noon.
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Well, it can't if the game was built with direct input response tied to 240p60 for example, modern games tolerate (and have to) higher latencies by design .. wireless controllers add latency, current HDMI video chip are usually full frame (and so are most PC cards, you don't get to sync at the line level), the actual console hardly generates native content at the stated res (some do) and there's an upscaling process at play which may again go full buffer ... I was in a presentation of a cloud based game engine for FPS a few years ago and the devs stated that in the end even if they render content at 60 fps they only react to user input at 1/5th to 1/10th of that .... yep you heard me right they basically render at least 6 frames at 60fps before even considering the user actions.
Given the games where made with that in mind it didn't feel bad or anything.
MMORPG's typically are designed around the nagle algorithm (200ms) so yes 5fps is what MMORPG's are designed to operate on. However turn the nagle algorithm off and players that are right next door to the data center will get 120fps of input timing resolution TO the server while players in Australia will get maybe 4.
That's neither here nor there for FPGA's however. The point of a FPGA is to get that precise timing. I wouldn't be surprised if 2D, Fighting games, SHUMPS and Platformers press in this direction (FPGA input devices with simple analog input.) There is too much inherent input latency on a PC for these games to really be viable due to all the layers they go through to process input and output, that's why RPG and FPS are pretty much what gets PC ports, the game engines (Unity, Cryengine, Unreal, etc) are all designed around PC performance in a single player environment. You can get away with only so much.
If game developers were seriously interested in solving the latency problem, they would abandon "cloud" anything. That's the wrong direction. The only reason to "cloud" anything is where you want to secure the game environment from meddling players, data miners and other amateur hacks, while offering a consistent experience to players who are running on extremely sub-par systems. But the catch here is that this is extremely high latency, you're not going to simply connect to an emulator running a Mario game from 1990, you're going to port that Mario game so that it can deal with that kind of input and rendering turn around. This is largely going to be a thing for MMORPG's and Mobile players.
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Not quite, it's the same as the MiST that uses a tiny ARM CPU for I/O handling. For example it handles USB connectivity, but translates to "real" (electrical) signals for the core. It also handles SD cards (e.g. moving data into RAM as ROM) and provides an overlay to switch cores and other functions, for example.
Thats not so much emulation but rather a common UI/framework to normalize interaction with the outside world. Cores could implement something like that in the FPGA (e.g. ZPUFlex) but it's a waste not to use available resources on the Cyclone V.
Perhaps you mean that in principle somebody could write an emulator on the ARM and leverage the FPGA to interface to hardware. Yes, that's certainly possible with one of these chips but have not seen it done so far.
At least with Open Source its easy to check which side is running things.
You'd likely not want to emulate things in the FPGA that aren't timing sensitive if you don't have to.
USB joysticks are timing sensitive. Real hard drives and floppy drives are, but you typically don't emulate these at that low of level, you emulate them at the interface level. So if there is no need to create a IDE or SCSI interface to connect to a real IDE or SCSI drive, then you just emulate that part with COTS parts.
The FPGA mainly needs to emulate the CPU, FPU, GPU, APU parts, and not anything that would be connected to those parts. So you could make it run at the native resolution and audio rate, but you don't need to emulate the analog interface, you can directly connect that to HDMI if it puts out a native compatible output, or you need to create a line-doubler/audio oversampler to make it compatible.
But also keep in mind that onboard HDMI IC's in FPGA kits are not line-doublers, they are typically framebuffers that add latency, so that's trivial if you are watching video or demos, but if you're actually wanting to interact with things, then that buffering can't exist.
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I probably should see what I could source locally just out of curiosity. I kind of want to dig out the old systems again as I'm tired of seeing the Retron5 having the potential of turning into a non-lucrative dust bunny farm. I'd settle for a Retrofreak with the NES+Controller adapter though. Problem is I can't seem to find one sold in the US.
They aren't sold in stores in the US. You have to use something like Play-asia http://www.play-asia.com/retro-freak-premium/13/708vvv to import or https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Gadget-Retro-Freak-Controller-Adapter/dp/B00ZZ70KMG Note they are meant for Asia so they have FC slots not NES slots.
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Has anyone seen the Retron HD? It's only $40, and claims it's all hardware based and is not an emulator box. Does anyone know if it's running an FPGA or what?
IMG_5051.JPGIt's too cheap to be a FPGA. Also, there is already a thread on this thing http://atariage.com/forums/topic/265390-new-retron-1-hd-out/
It's either a NOAC or a Retron5 with just a NES slot.
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I don't see the need to have both a cart slot and Wifi. Wifi would only be useful for some kind of official online store, for pirated stuff you can and should use the SD card slot. Nintendo would never want to support carts again. So if it's an official system, you get wifi, if it's a clone, you get cart slots. You're going to have to pick one.
All Nintendo would have to do is re-release the Wii with HDMI/USB-c Displayport with an updated store and SNES controllers. If we wanted to a little further, release SNES-style controllers with analog controls to play N64,GC and Wii games. However this doesn't offer anything better than the existing Wii/WiiU other than the HDMI.
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FPGA Based Videogame System
in Classic Console Discussion
Posted
Well he would have to get access to carts with those chips, and those chips have embedded firmware blobs that you can't just copy and distribute.