The Atari 5200 Podcast (New Podcast)

[The Atari 5200 Podcast (New Podcast)]

21 hours ago, David Alexander said:

Please consider subscribing to The Atari Report YouTube Channel

 

I will take a look for sure.

[What's the Worst Console You Ever Played?]

9 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Yeah, it's only gotten fuzzier. I still feel strongly about classifying something like the CD-i, CDTV, and even VIS as game consoles (I think something like the 3DO is not even in question by any reasonable argument), but certainly would never call an Apple TV or Roku game consoles. An Nvidia Shield TV, I could be convinced to call it a game console. Mine came with a game controller and that's one of its main selling points.

In regards to the VIS, I'd place it amongst the worst consoles (assuming you allow it to be called a console, natch) I've ever played along with the RCA Studio II. The VIS is so painfully slow it amazes me they bothered releasing it in that state. 

I believe the VIS had the moniker 'Virtually Impossible to Sell' by Radio Shack sales people.  Still, perhaps Radio Shack did a lot of R&D and decided to release it because of machines like the CD-i, CDTV, and 3DO on the market, not to mention the Microsoft connection on the machine.  Also, I think John Hancock not too long ago stated that were was a company selling new old stock a la the Dragon Tano situation in the early 2010s.  Not sure if that is still the case of not, but you want to talk about one heckavu curiosity at this point in time.

[What's the Worst Console You Ever Played?]

2 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Most CD-based consoles could be argued to be that, though. At minimum you could play audio CDs and often CD-Gs, and some, you could play Video CDs. Over time, that evolved to DVDs, HD-DVDs, Blu-Rays, 3D Blu-Rays, and Ultra HD Blu-Rays. As such, I'd argue it was just a natural evolution of the game console.

Of course, both CD-i and 3DO pushed their systems as multimedia platforms to more or less of a degree, as did Commodore with the CDTV and Tandy/Memorex with the VIS, and others, and pushed games either as a primary or secondary function, but again, I'd say by pretty much any definition, they're game consoles. It only arguably gets really difficult to properly classify something as a game console when it's something like a Roku, Apple TV, or Android TV. I personally wouldn't call those game consoles, but they can certainly play games, some quite proficiently. But then another argument can be made that past systems like the CD-i, 3DO, CDTV, VIS, etc., were designed with games in mind, either as a primary or secondary function, so they really are game consoles. Something like a Roku, Apple TV, or Android TV, were not expressly designed with games in mind, but can certainly play games - and again, sometimes high-level stuff - because their hardware is so powerful (it of course gets fuzzier when you have something like an Nvidia Shield TV).

Yeah, very true Bill.  For instance, my co-worker has used an Xbox (360 I think) as his multi-media device for years and is looking to upgrade.  However, with the CD-i (as well as the 3DO, CDTV, VIS specifically), I know they tried to play up the multi-media aspect the most, hence my description of it.  Still, I would agree most gaming consoles are multi-media devices too as they can stream from services like Netflix, play 4k Blu Ray discs (like the Xbox One S), and play games.  Rokus, Apple TV, and Android TV boxes I wouldn't call them gaming consoles really.  They are definitely more in the streaming/mulit-media device area imo.  However, I do have a Nvidia Shield TV and that can do some pretty great gaming, although I mainly use it as my streaming/mulit-media device.

[What's the Worst Console You Ever Played?]

From what I have seen and read, I would classify the CD-i as a "multi-media game console".  Fair enough?

[What's the Worst Console You Ever Played?]

21 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

To be fair to the CD-i it's not really a gaming machine, just a media machine that can play games. While gaming was a part of it's marketing and sales in later years the CD-i being a game system is due to the issues I mentioned in the above post that happened early to the late 2000's and mostly because of 4 Nintendo games that weren't even best sellers on the system iirc.

Correct, the CD-i was a mult-media machine that had gaming capabilities.  However, that is a major reason it gets dissed on by lots of people for its games when that wasn't the point of the system and people miss that for the most part.  Hence, why it is a (mostly) misunderstood machine.

[Computers and the videogame crash of the 80's.]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Another factor that I don't think these companies fully appreciated back then was the 8-bit computers were the game consoles of the mid 80s, especially the C64.  When the 16-bits came, they were too expensive for many of these people, which gave an opportunity for the dedicated console like NES to return.   Mid-range models may have helped keep those gamers around.

100% agree with you here.  Moreover, the NES was eventually able to undercut gaming 8 bit computers, like the C64, which really helped propel it forward.

[RetroManCave has a video on the Atari 800XL]

19 hours ago, adam1977 said:

Part three here:

 

 

Good video (series) on the Atari 800XL.  He does a good job and I enjoy his 'Trash to Treasure' series.

[What's the Worst Console You Ever Played?]

6 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Very few consoles (and computers) were total failures or are only interesting as historical curiosities. I'd say the 3DO, CD-i, and Jaguar are extremely enjoyable if you stick to their best titles, which, depending upon the system in question is a half dozen to a few dozen titles, give or take. The main problem with systems like those is it's easy to bag on the worst of their titles and not bother to really look at the totality of what actually was released and actually took advantage of their particular platform features. Systems like those (and their games) are not as readily accessible to a lot of people either these days either, so that certainly doesn't help overall impressions.

Very true Bill.  It can be hard for people to give systems a fair shake if they are not sampling some of the best they have to offer instead of their so-so and/or bad ones. 

[What's the Worst Console You Ever Played?]

The 3DO was a good gaming machine the CD-i was a decent enough machine for what it was designed to do.  I know both get bagged on by lots of people, and in some cases rightfully so.  However, they do deserve some more appreciation, understanding, and respect imo.  No reason for either one to get so much hate.

[What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?]

11 hours ago, JamesD said:

Exactly what do you mean by powerfulness?

The CoCo 1/2 can RUN at double speed when accessing the ROM area which is also where game carts are located. 
This speeds up BASIC by around 30%, making it one of the faster machines out there in BASIC, and it can speed up game carts though I think only 1 cart has used that.
The CoCo 3 can RUN at double speed all the time (1.77MHz) while still offering backwards compatibility.
The 6809 has a hardware multiply instruction. Microsoft didn't use it in their BASIC, but I created a patch to replace the floating point multiply with one that uses it.
I haven't benchmarked the CoCo 3 patch, but my MC-10 BASIC rewrite uses it, and math intensive programs like 3D plots are over 40% faster.
The MC-10 with my BASIC can complete Ahl's benchmark (BASIC) in 1:06, where the Apple II & C64 take about 1:53.  The MC-10 is clocked at 0.89MHz.
You can swap out the 6809 for a 6309, and once native mode is enabled, 6809 software can run at over 20% faster, 6309 software can run 30% faster. 
The 6309 extends the 6809's 16 bit support, it adds some 32 bit support, has memory move instructions, additional registers, and it has a hardware divide.
The FLEX OS and can run on 64K CoCos.  It's a CP/M like OS available for 6800 or 6809 machines with a lot of programs (programs are CPU specific).
OS-9 Level 1 runs on any 64K CoCo, and OS-9 Level II runs on the CoCo 3. 
It's a fully multitasking OS with some powerful applications that brought preemptive multitasking to micros years before the Amiga. 
Trying to multi-task on a 6502 is dreadful, but the 6809's fully relocatable code, relocatable direct page (Page 0 to you 6502 fans) makes it easy.
Dynacalc is one of the best spreadsheets ever created for an 8 bit, and it has CoCo DOS & OS-9 versions.
On Level II OS-9, you can run a CP/M emulator, and it's programs as well at the same time as OS-9 programs. 
CP/M programs can continue to run in the background while you do something else, so if you print from Wordstar, it can continue to print while you do something else.
You can even run multiple CP/M programs at once.
The CoCo 3 has 2MB RAM expansions that OS-9 can already use, and there are larger expansions on the way.  There were 2MB OS-9 machines back in the day.
There is a GIME chip (CoCo 3) upgrade in beta test that adds additional graphics modes, VGA output, and an even higher speed mode.
There are word processors, data bases, etc... that can run on a CoCo 1/2 that will display text in 51/64/81 characters per line using graphics (81 is for page formatting only, 64 is only readable on monochrome composite output)
Many of these applications offer 80 column versions for the CoCo 3.
There are graphical word processors similar to Mac Write, Desktop Publishers, music composition software with MIDI support, etc...
 

To answer your question, I guess what I mean by 'powerfulness' is concerning the graphical and/or processing capabilities.  But, that can be very subjective as obviously 16-bit machines like the Amiga and/or ST will beat 8-bit machines.  That being said, some 8-bit machines can be powerful enough depending on what a user is wanting to do.  I hope that makes sense.  Also, definitely in no way was I trying to slight and/or intentionally leave out the CoCos.  CoCos are very good computers, no doubt about it.  If I were to recommend one, I would say the CoCo 2 with 64k as the CoCo 3 is a really good machine, but getting to be a little expensive nowadays.  And again, I was just throwing in my quick, two cents on some machines that would qualify in the categories.  It was not meant to be a comprehensive list, but at least something to give different possibilities as there are plenty of good retro computers to start with, that's for sure!

[What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?]

8 minutes ago, OLD CS1 said:

You can add the TI-99/4A to this category.  The FinalGROM 99 is a "multi-cart" of sorts which will play all ROM/GROM titles from SD card.  The nanoPEB provides DSK1..3 emulation via a CF card and has the 32k memory expansion built-in.  It is a little more convoluted than just copying a file to an SD/CF card from PC, but the software to make the virtual volumes is simple to use.

 

Add the TI-99/4A here, too.  These things are built like tanks and the most common failure I know of is the VDP RAM, much like PLA or CIA failures in the C64 though less easy to replace.  Video output is 240p composite like the A8 or C64.

 

Console BASIC on the TI is slow as balls but it is a good learning environment.  Readily available upgrades like TI's own Extended BASIC and the myriad third-party variations and enhancements (like "The Missing Link") are far better and more functional than the built-in BASIC, including command access to sprites.  For around $200 to $250 you can have a console, a nanoPEB, and an FG99, and from there the AA TI subs are your friends.

 

For software, there are a lot of good titles from the era and tons of great stuff from the past 10 years.  Adventure and Tunnels of Doom are highly regarded for the platform, and the TI has its own "personality" in exclusive titles like Parsec, The Attack, TI Invaders, and Munch-Man, among others.

 

I have refrained from pitching much because I have rather narrow experiences and cannot speak objectively regarding machines like the CoCo3 (we had one for two weeks before pitching it,) etc.  My computers were the TI-99/4A, which I abandoned due to the availability of less costly peripherals and "mainstream" software on the C64, dabbled with Atari 8-bit during the time, then on to Amiga.  I bought my first Amiga 500 for $500 with a shyttonne of software, and the prices are still relatively similar.   I made a connection with my Amiga that I am not certain retro-hobbyists of today will make, but that definitely is top of my list.

Thanks for the input.  Yep, definitely the TI-99/4a has some appeal like the options you mentioned above.  Definitely a good machine to get into as well as.  Just depends on what tickles your fancy in the end as there are a lot of good choices out there.

[What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?]

2 hours ago, bluejay said:

I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree with a few of those. The Color Computer line doesn't really have a game library that would appeal to people who want a retro computer to play classic, mainstream 80's games.

Also, don't forget DOS systems also have something called a Compact Flash to IDE adapter, they work well from my experience, and is very easy to use.

I'm not entirely sure how A8s and the C64 ended up in the same league in powerfulness with the 16 bit systems.

And also as most people have agreed upon, the early Commodore systems have a horrible BASIC. And CoCos that didn't come with Extended Color BASIC were pretty bad as well.

Hey, it's cool to disagree with a few.  After all, those were just my opinions as I was to merely putting out possible/plausible options.  However, I would be remiss if I didn't provide some counterpoints.  Those are:

 

1) While the CoCo doesn't have the library of an A8, Apple II, and/or C64, I would argue it is a competent gaming machine in its own right.  Granted, it is definitely below the other 8 bit computers I listed, but I think it offers a lot gaming wise that a lot of people don't necessarily know about.

2) Very true, those Compact Flash to IDE adapters are quite slick.  I didn't remember and/or think about those, so those definitely those would be something to be in point #3.  No doubt about it.

3) The Amiga and ST are more powerful than 8 bit machines, full stop.  However, A8s (like the 800XL) and C64 are powerful enough in their own right and good enough for a lot of people.

4) Granted, Commodore's BASIC is not the best.  However, the manual for the Vic-20 is considered to be one of best for one wanting to learn BASIC.  I would have to say the BASIC in the Vic-20 and C64 are competent enough to be included, but certainly below other machines' offerings.

 

Again, just my opinion.  I am certainly no expert, especially concerning matters with BASIC.  But, again, I do appreciate your disagreements as hopefully this discussion as well as others in this thread help someone out going forward making choice(s) for him/herself.

[Computers and the videogame crash of the 80's.]

I gotta say the CoCo 3 was one heck of a machine regardless of its cost considerations.  Too bad it didn't have the success of the CoCo and CoCo 2.  Still, it is a machine and computer line that gets lots love for good reasons.

[What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?]

Throwing my two cents in, these are my thoughts on the matter.  The options for each category are as follows:

 

1. Price: Atari 600XL, Atari 800XL, C64, Vic-20, TI-99/4a, Coco 2

2. Game library: A8, C64, Apple II, CoCo 2, Amiga, ST, Mac, MS-DOS / PC clone

3. Ease of file transfers to/from modern devices: A8, C64, and CoCo 2 have dead simple SD card solutions of some kind

4. Powerfulness (or whatever you call it) of the computer: A8, C64, Apple II, Amiga, ST, Mac, MS-DOS / PC clone

5. Ease of use: A8, C64, and CoCo 2 (due largely in part to #3)

6. Reliability: Atari 600XL, Atari 800XL, Apple II, CoCo 2, MS-DOS / PC clone

7. Video output: A8, C64, MS-DOS / PC clone

8. BASIC: Apple II, Vic-20, C64, CoCo 2

 

Obviously my take on this is from a U.S. perspective and just my opinion.  Other machines to consider if one lives abroad could include ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, MSX, and Dragon 32/64 machines, apart from the Amiga and ST which I believe are easier and cheaper to find abroad, especially in England.

 

Regardless, there are lots of good options out there.  It is just a matter of what one likes, what one is willing to pay, and what one wants to do.  There are lots of computers for some good gaming, but perhaps not as much for more serious computing, or so it seems to me.

 

Hopefully this list and the other comments help someone out.

[Introducing Amigos: A new Amiga Podcast!]

2 minutes ago, AmigosGaming said:

Operation Thunderbolt is the follow up to Operation Wolf and it manages to surpass the original on a technical front but does it prove to be more fun?

 

Boat and Aaron will take a look and find out. Take a look at the 1h15m full episode and also get up to date with this weeks Amiga News!

 

 

If your eyes are tired then you can catch the latest audio only version here : https://anchor.fm/amigospodcast

Good episode, although the game was not a real good one like 'Roadkill'.  Still, great job as always and I look forward to the next one.

[Introducing Amigos: A new Amiga Podcast!]

5 minutes ago, AmigosGaming said:

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Yes, I agree that the smaller Checkmate case with a redesigned UnAmiga seems like a perfect match.

You are most welcome and best of luck going forward.

[The Atari 5200 Super Community Podcast]

On 9/11/2020 at 11:52 AM, thevnaguy said:

Diving into the pyramid looking for jewels in Montezuma's Revenge! Its a new episode of The Atari Super Community Podcast (video version!)

Very good episode.  I very much enjoyed it and look forward to seeing a new episode sooner rather than later.

[The Atari 5200 Podcast (New Podcast)]

2 hours ago, David Alexander said:

While we are waiting for our next episode to record why not give a listen to a new episode of the 5200 Super Community Podcast. William Culver and the crew return plus with a bonus Arkay is back.

 

 

 

Good episode.  I enjoyed it quite a bit as Willie and crew he can assemble are usually pretty good combinations.

[Computers and the videogame crash of the 80's.]

49 minutes ago, zzip said:

I wouldn't even put the 130XE in this category.  Besides extra-memory and a chip to manage it, it had no new features over the rest of the 8-bit line.

 

The C128 had enhancements at least.

 

The IIgs is a better example of interim machine, but it was priced outside this $200-1000 realm

 

But the fact that Apple crippled the IIgs to make sure it wouldn't cannibalize sales I think shows the answer to why these companies didn't make better interim computers.

 

Coco 3 is probably the best example of an interim machine.  Maybe it's because Tandy's 16-bit machine the Tandy 1000 was playing in the clone market and wasn't as proprietary as the others?

Well, as Bill stated, by 1987 you did have computers like the Amiga 500 (and as I stated the Tandy 1000 HX) that hit the $200 to $1000 range.  So, perhaps the reason why so many didn't bother with more advance 8 bit solutions as it was too difficult to compete on the low end and the fact the market was rapidly moving toward the PC standard, especially from around the mid-'80s onward.

[Computers and the videogame crash of the 80's.]

4 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I've always argued that the C-64 had the best combination of features, performance, and price point, so there was really no need for more low end 8-bit competition. Once a minimum quality level is reached (in this case, good graphics and sound and 64K memory), that's good enough for most people. That was reached with the C-64 upon its release, followed soon enough by a killer price point that the competition had a hard time matching. Once the software was in place, it was game over for everyone else on the low end (or relied on 8-bit technology) who wasn't already established.

In terms of a mid-range solution, I don't think there was really much of a market for one. This was not a time that you could do much more with a computer offering between what a C-64 could do and what the higher end platforms like the Macintosh, ST, Amiga, and PC could do. And as you stated, there were pseudo in-betweeners like the C-128 and CoCo 3, as sort of super 8-bits, but they really were just meant to extend already established platforms. So, if anything, those were the mid-range solutions for the small percentage of users who wanted a bit more punch and/or a way to further extend their original 8-bit investments. And frankly, by the time something like the Amiga 500 hit, the higher end platforms suddenly became surprisingly price competitive with something like a similarly decked out CoCo 3 (with "required" disk drive, monitor, and RAM expansion to use its extra features) as just one example. So really, the higher end platforms came down to mid-point pricing after just a handful of years themselves.

Very true Bill.  I, personally, just find it intriguing that no one really tried apart from a handful of attempts considering how many tried their hand in the late 70s / early 80s.  However, as you state above, you had the C64 on the low end that no one (really) could compete with and then you had (essentially) mid-range solutions like the Amiga 500 or even the Tandy 1000 HX come around circa 1987.  So, that perhaps explains things quite a bit then.

[Computers and the videogame crash of the 80's.]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:51 PM, JamesD said:

Just a couple things, though I'm not 100% sure what you mean by bridging the gap. 
I'm taking this as introducing a machine somewhere in between.

Apple introduced the IIGS, and Jobs went out of his way to neuter it so it couldn't compete with the Mac.
It was bridging the gap, but it was expensive, and the new software base was much smaller. 
Most people simply ran Apple II software.
If it had run at 4-8MHz, I think the GUI would have run much better, but then fewer people would buy a Mac.

Amiga development took place at a different company that was purchased by Commodore, so they didn't really have much notice to create something in between.
There was GEOS to add a windowed OS and apps though.
They probably should have introduced an improved C64 upgrade with 2MHz, 128K, and additional colors instead of the TED series,
but I'm not sure the Amiga deal was in the works yet, so it's not like it would have been an intentional gap filler.

The Atari ST was completely developed from scratched after Jack took over. 
Again, no development time for some intermediate 8 bit, though they did give the 120XE more RAM... and a worse keyboard.

If you meant something like a 68008 machine... it would have had some appeal on price, but the performance wouldn't be that great.
It's already a 32 bit oriented instruction set on a 16 bit buss, so 68000 code isn't nearly as compact as 8 bit instruction sets.
Code would run quite slow on the 68008, and you still need the same amount of RAM to run the software, so it's not saving much.

Sure, what I meant by "bridging the gap" would be machines that fell between say a C64 and an Amiga.  Now, I do realize that there were some machines that would be in this realm (like the CoCo 3, Commodore 128, Atari 130XE).  However, it is (in my opinion) just a little surprising that there weren't more machines (in the U.S. at least) that tried to bridge the gap between the low end C64 (i.e. $200ish range) side to the Atari ST/Amiga/PC clone higher end ($1k and more) side .  However, due to the massive amount of software for the Apple II and C64, combined with hardware updates both machines received, I suppose that explains (to, I suppose, a vast degree) why there weren't more machines.

[Computers and the videogame crash of the 80's.]

On 9/12/2020 at 1:47 AM, potatohead said:

A big driver for that was software.  By the late 80's, there was a lot of good software for both machines.  People were buying Apple 8 bitters for education and small business.  A few were buying them as workstations of some sort too, development, test, measure, control.  Same for C64, a bit less on the niche part of things.  Both machines had great game libraries.  

 

I knew people running both machines to make good money.  On the Apple, it was Appleworks mostly.  On the C64, I didn't see many, but a couple people, including an uncle of mine, used a C64 word processor that could conditionally include text and populate fields.  He made a ton doing real estate with that C64 cranking out kick ass offers and contracts in minutes.

 

I myself had a variety of machines, but a lot of the real work got done on an Apple 8 bit machine.  

Very true.  Software is probably what kept the Apple II and C64 alive.  Also, least we forget that the Apple II and C64 were upgraded with the Apple IIe Platinum being the last iteration of II line in 1987 and the C64C coming out with the slim design look of the Commodore 128 with the GEOS GUI in 1986 to keep the machines somewhat relative hardware wise, too.

[The Atari VCS Controversy Thread]

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Anyone who says otherwise is just flat-out wrong.  I always say now is the best time to be a gamer. We just keep adding to all that came before, including more ways to play all that came before. There are so many options it's mind boggling and you can never really run out of new things to explore, both past and present. 

100% agreed.  Definitely there are so many options for all kinds of gamers it is really cool to see.  I, myself, recently broke down and bought a very gently used Nintendo DSi along with a cheapo multicart.  I gotta say it is a really fun little device and I have been having a good time with it.  Definitely I am getting my monies worth out of it already, that's for sure.

[Intellivision Amico - Tommy Tallarico introduction + Q&A]

2 minutes ago, bigdaddygamestudio said:

I agree, its an entry level machine, its for those looking to dabble into the more hardcore consoles, its also for the economically constrained xmas consumer. It will likely sell millions since their is several demographics for this.  So while it likely wont hurt amico too badly, its definitely not gonna help since it gives young gamers parents another low cost console option. I dont think real gamers will touch this, and this machine is more about marketing than engineering, but if we hit a full blown recession/depression soon, it might just look like a stroke of genius for microsoft.

Yep.  The Series S looks to be a winner for MS as a lot of articles on the console have been praising it thus far.  Now, how exactly well it will sell is anyone's guess.  I think it looks to be winner and a good blend of power and price.  However, time will only tell.

[The Atari VCS Controversy Thread]

I will say this, we are very fortunate to have a whole slew of options which include the Atari VCS along with the upcoming Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X, PS5, and Amico along with existing products like the Xbox One S, PS4, PS4 Pro, and Nintendo Switch.  Truly a very nice time to be a gamer.