Jetboot Jack

GTIA equiped 8bit machines have a 256 color palette - CTIA a 128 color palette... BUT Only the GTIA modes can show the 256 colors, mode 9 - 16 shades of one color - add DLII's and get all 256 colors. Al other modes ignore the 1st bit of the color value - giving 128 selectable shades in non GTIA modes. The odd color values have no effect except in GTIA mode... sTeVE

I'd just like to qualify a couple of points I raised earlier in this thread... About the NES: "It has a higher screen resolution that is useable in games and easier to program tile graphics." The 7800 games are almost always in 160X192 mode - NES games are always 256X?. So despite the 7800's variable programmable resolution is there - non one really used it - so 7800 games look blocky "It has great sprite hardware and background graphic management." The tile based graphics system of the NES is a different design paradgim than the 7800 system. Most 7800 games have minimalist backgrounds, NES games (albeit platform games mostly) like Megaman have wonderful backgrounds. Managing tilesets and sprites on the NES is VERY easy - and is such a common technique on consoles (from the Intellivsion to the SNES) that the different design of the 7800 was not really explored in its life time - if it could offer richer experiences, no one every leveraged that power. I know I always prefered working on characterset/tile systems to bit mapped or line RAM systems... NES sprites may flicker, but they were easy to use, to position, move and animate - NES games feature lots of moving chracters, sometimes quite large... It has RAM (!). The 7800 has line RAM, the NES has video RAM - the difference is worlds apart. Modern systems with unified memory pools (GC/Xbox) have blown the need for video RAM away, but 8bit systems with limited construction costs benefited from the seprate video RAM/main memory model. devoting 2K to the screen enabled the NES to be VERY flexible to program. Of course if Atari had equipped the 7800 with the 5200 RAM model things would have been perfect - the 8bit was the first machine I ever knew to have such a sophisticated RAM system - it was truly awesome!!! sTeVE

ah ha - I see what you mean - When you said levels I thought you meant levels not girders, yeah that's 100% true the 800 version has less girders... Still I think the 800 version's graphics are great - better in all ways than the Atarisoft C64 version. How close to the arcade are they - pretty good IMHO, certainly the game - when you play it looks and feels just right

Gunstar, I have Tower Toppler on the XEGS - not very good I'm afraid - monochrome sTeVE [ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Jet Boot Jack ]

Gunstar, Donkey Kong on the 8 bit supports all four levels, Girders, Rivets, Elevators, and Conveyor Belts. Level one - Girders and Rivets Level Two - Girders, Elevators and Rivets Level Three - Girders, Conveyor Belts, Elevators and Rivets The game then continues, inserting Girder levels between the other levels. This is the same play as some versions of the coin op, other versions play all four rounds from the get go...

Crossbow... Using Atari800win to play Moonpatrol - just use the 8bit cart Which works fine... sTeVE

Glenn Tower Toppler (or Nebulus as it was originally called) was designed and implemented on the C64 first. The Commodore version was excellent - superb music and graphics - much better than the 7800 version... Whilst the multilayer scolling is nice - its only one playfield, with overlaps (the tower bases etc) as sprites, not parallax which is scrolling with 2 overlapping playfields. True overlapping parallax is VERY rare on 8bit machines - most had only one playfield - a few 8bit (Menace) and C64 (Hawkeye) games faked it pretty well - but you have to wait until the PC Engine to see an 8bit one playfield system really make you believe it has an extra layer (Lords of Thunder etc)... sTeVE

100% agree - it is not the hardware but the software that makes a system shine!! The 7800 is plenty poweful to do GREAT games - certainly more than arcade ports with bad audio! Bu its lack of commercial success meant no one ever bothered to push the system. And I'm certain that if it had been a major format workarounds for ROM size etc would have been developed too. Likewise the 5200, a system I believe is more than capable of keeping up with the BEST of the machines of that time, machines that got better software support and so over shadowed the system. In truth the 5200 and 7800 hardware is EXCELLENT, but the programs released were often pretty lame. If there had been more Rescue on Fractalus and less Jinx the world of late Atari console would be a far better place... sTeVE

Gunstar... Sorry, sorry, just hold up there C64 Donkey Kong better than the 800 version - ARE YOU MAD?!?! All the C64 versions SUCK (Atari and Ocean) - they play awfully, the sounds are horrid. The animation pathetic, the feel is all wrong - Donkey Kong on the 800 is (apart from the NES version) the best 8bit DK there is - way better than the CV version!!! sTeVE, sorry RANT over!

Well I'd love to just be able to give away my old work, and so would many others I work with... But its a case being very careful, lots of what I and others do in our jobs is of intrest to the gaming community, but also owned by the peopel we work for... The usual contracts bind you to very restrictive NDA's - and I would not want to hurt any professional relationships I have. I am currently seeking ways to be able to release a number of 8bit pieces - including Menace and Shadow of the Beast - but I have a contract with the company I developed these titles for that is still binding. I have been asked by many - including people on this board to get the stuff out of moth balls and into public domain (and in some cases - Jag Games - into commercial release. But I have not yet been able to secure the release of the code for these projects. If and when I do I will certainly make sure I release them In the meantime I have decided to take my 8bit dev kit out of moth balls and see about working on some new games... sTeVE

Goochman - like myself my pal currently works in the games industry, and like myself is unable to release code relating to projects that have or may any copyright issues with them, simply because it could be problematic... The DT boardgame may be old, but the rights are almsot certainly still held, and should the owner decide to use them then there could be complications. I have the same problem with lots of the un released Atari 8bit software I have right now If there were commercial gain from these projects (like the Songbird stuff) then I'm sure there would be an incentive to revive the code for other users - but unlike LYNX and Jag games there are simply too few users for the copyright owners to be inrested in releasing the rights... sTeVE

er... Gunstar - International Karate or World Karate Championship is the original game - IK+ is the sequel... And it is LOADS better - still by Archer Maclean, but with 3 fighters, and teh combat is great fun! It also has more intermission games, great background animations and best of all you could make your opponent lose his trousers!! sTeVE

1. Atari 400/800/XL (My first and only true love - Donkey Kong!!!) 2. PC Engine (the best 8bit console EVER - I love my LT) 3. SNES 4. Gameboy/Color Gameboy/GBA 5. Atari Lynx 6. 2600 7. N64 8. Sega Saturn (Panzer Dragoon) 9. Intellivsion 10. Playstation I/II

Hmmm, that article is not very accurate - it doesn't mention Exidy at all and sure all the companies are there, most grew from Sculptured!!! Sculptured produced DOZENS of atari games over the years, but its real Claim to Fame was th ehome versions of MK and Super Star Wars, Super Empire Stikes Back and Super Return of the Jedi on the SNES - gazillion sellers all of 'em! George's last company Kodiak has unfortunatley died - we were working on Circus Maximus (Xbox), Monsters Inc (no not the scare island game) (PS2) and an MS title (Xbox)... Circus and Monsters Inc (my baby) will come to market... sTeVE

Hmmmm.... I dunno if I can agree with the supposition 7800 being better than the NES. The NES has a real sound chip. It has a higher screen resolution that is useable in games and easier to program tile graphics. It has great sprite hardware and background graphic management. It has RAM (!). Its design was very flexible, and Nintendo took advantage of that by constantly increasing RAM and ROM capacities of the carts. It had loads of great programmers work on it, across a huge range of companies, so its library of games is generally well programmed and represents some of the best titles and 8bit coding of the mid 80's... It has Mario and Zelda! sTeVE

I was involved in the development of a PC version of DT - many years ago as a VB project. It was almost finished :-( I also know a guy who has done a great Coleco version, but he's keeping it "Personal"! I have the board game (well 2 copies actually) and an 8bit version would be FAB! Now that may be a good project for me to do as a warm up on the 8bit - hmmmmmm

Sorry Ethan - I have to say the NES versions of many of the classic arcade games are better than the 7800 versions. DK, DKjnr, Ms Pacman, Galaga, Xevious etc were all better on the NES, however Joust and Robotron are WAY better on the 7800. As for original games and library size, well the NES wins hands down. Much as I enjoy my 7800, the NES was a better gaming deck... sTeVE

Cafeman - sorry to sound pissy, but I think your "Heaven/TQA" post was both harsh and ill directed. I find Atari message boards, by and large, populated by people who know very little about the architecture and programming of the 8bit Atari systems in practical terms, few have produced code and almost no one has great programs. But here at Atari Age that's not true... I think that Heaven makes a pretty bold contribution to almost all of the threads in the technical and coding boards. I for one find his contribution stimulating - he and his crew have produced MANY great demos - far surpassing a few sprites and DLI FX... I would think this community would do better to stick together, encourage each other, focus on helping everyone be creative and actually get the 5200/7800/2600 homebrew scene away from the usual fanboy graphic hackers and pirates... I've worked on 8bit hardware for years, I professionally produce and design video and computer games (you've probably played some and maybe even own some), for almost every format created. Long ago the games industry realised support and collaboration produced the best results... I look at the work being done, by people like yourself, Heaven, Calamri and others (sorry I don't mean to miss anybody out)- its fabulous to see all this new stuff happening. I can't wait to join in - my kit is almost here :-) sTeVE [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Jet Boot Jack ]

Cafeman, Missile data starts (in the 2k block that is set up for single line resolution) 768 bytes from the start of PMBASE (wherever you set that to be) and extends to the start of P0 at PMBASE+1024. You do have to mask the other missile bits to produce independent vertical motion - then again you have to move all the missiles horizontally seperately if you have 5th player enable set too!!! sTeVE

Coleco vs. 5200... Well I loved Zaxxon, Pepper II & Ladybug - but that did not convince me that the Coleco was better than the 8bit/5200 in ANY way. I always looked at the comparison from the potential of the system and its clear to anyone that the systems have some features better than the other, but on balance the 5200 is the more powerful system - let me give some details: Graphics - background The CV manages 256X192 (or thereabouts), in 16 colors. But limits each 8X8 character cell to have 2 colors. There is a mode that allows 2 colors per line of the character block (look at Penguin Adventure and Burger Time), but it was rarely used :-( The 5200 manages up to 16 colors (mode 9/11)on screen from a 256 color palette, and the reolution can be up to 160X192 in 5 colors (320X192 in 2 colors). Each character cell can display 4 colors mixed however you need. Add a Display List Interrupt and you can have 5 different colors per character line of the screen. Graphics - Sprites The TI chip gives the CV 32 sprites each 16X16 and one color each - but only 4 per line. Antic gives 4 players per line (5 if you combine the missiles) plus 4 missile objects too. But they are only 8 pixels wide :-( Using a DLI you can create a very large number of objetcs, that exceed the 32 onscreen limit of the CV. Sound 5200 - Pokey wins! The Yamaha chip in the CV has less voices than Pokey, has a smaller octave range (remember you can combine 2 voices to get a massive octave range on pokey). The audio quality that the 5200 can produce is (and I'm not trying o be subjective here) far better than the CV, richer tonal quality, better noise generation. Simply listen to tunes from the last few years of the 8bit's life - just listen to Plastron for instance (nice plug!)! Unfortunatley the 5200 had a bad start, poor games at release, poor controllers, Atari's lack of drive to make the system sell based on their arrogance that they owned the market. All contributed to a debut that was a bit of a wimper when the CV landed with a bang! sTeVE

Sorry Mario, I only worked at Kodiak/Sculptured for 8 months, up until this January... I tried to find out who did the 7800/8bit stuff, but they and their code were long gone sTeVE

John, You said "I think it would be better to answer such programming-constraint questions in advance"... I think this is a misnomer, its not a programming constraint but a design constraint. The fact the machine has two buttons would not hinder the 7800 doing an RPG like "Breath of Fire", just released for GBA, for instance as it uses menu/turn based combat and a realtime one button exploration of the world. Remember - Sonic only needs one button! If doing a Street Fighter like game was desired then a good pattern for control would be the system that SF uses already - except you would have one punch and one kick button, and all the combos could still be worked off those buttons and the dpad... To open an on screen menu in a game that required the two buttons (jump and shoot)could be organized in several ways. Design the requirement to use the menu to not be in frantic action sequences, place objects in the world to open the menu that the player interacts with (like Forgotten Worlds shops). If the Menu is needed when the player is madly leaping and firing I would say - bad game design... sTeVE

I'm not sure I understand your post John. Whilst the 7800 has only 2 buttons only one of your suggestions actually raises any issues around this - the new hardware. The other options seem standard "design" choices you may or may not make based on the required content, interface complexity or game design. Most modern games utilise context sensetive controller layout modifications - in one part of the play the pad works like X and in another area Y. The age and complexity of 7800 games leans them towards the simple button A and button B discrete functions. The two examples you cite, are both valid, but totally dependent upon the application being developed. A hard line of establishing a defacto standard for a control system across all games is a lesson long ago learned by the games industry. For instance whilst now SONY prefers you to use X as a primary action button on US developed PS2 games, its not a must do rule, and SONY Japan prefers the O as the primary input. Each game's controller needs should define the required input method and the way to create "more" input possibilities from the controller.. sTeVE

DKj on 5200: I guess Atari was probably negotiating rights, or hoped to get the licence - so they promoted the games B4 they had the rights, Atari was infamous for annoncing stuff that never happened Kangaroo: The APX version looks identical to the 5200 version - what gives?!?!? I have to say that most of the 5200 ports that I have on the 8 bit play really well with the normal single button stick - I can't imagine why there would be any point to having to struggle with the 5200 stick to play the same game... Although I do want to play Space Dungeon and the other unique titles sTeVE

Kangaroo was released! On Disc by Atari, when Jack cleared house it was in those big stock dumping ads they put in Antic and Analog - a mate bought a copy, it only works on the 400/800 Mario Brothers was re-written by Sculptured Software for the XE and is HUGELY better than the old 5200 version. Many of the 5200 games that did not appear on the 8bit were restricted in their licences too, so although developed Atari could not publish them on console/computer - hence no 5200 Donkey Kong! sTeVE