zenassem

HI, I just received my first Atari ST ever. It's a 1040STF. It came with a monochrome Atari SM124 monitor, Mouse, Cables, and an Atari U.S.A. Language disk that I guess has the T.O.S. on it. This is my first ST so i'm not sure if the floppy has the whole OS or if it's just enough view the programs on the disk. So I'm looking for any help and suggestions on what I should get for it. My first order of business is getting this thing hooked up to a color screen. I believe I've seen a cable that has RCA connectors, so I'm presuming I can get that to connect to my Commodre 1702 Video monitor. I believe I have heard that it's possible to connec the ST to an SVGA monitor. It would be nice to able to share my DELL Flatscreen monitor with my PC. I have a Double Dragon 3 game that I would have liked to test out, I figured it would work on the monchrome monitor, but I guess I assumed wrong. Thanks for any suggestions, website links, or general advice. ~zenassem

@analmux, Let me first thank you for taking the time to offfer your advice, kwowledge, and help. It means a lot to me. Your time and knowledge is precious, and I wouldn't want to waste a minute of it. This project is a tremendous undertaking for me. I am studying, reading, and experimenting, at an almost rediculous pace. I have fairly strong background in programming and "game programming" for the PC platform. While I have worked with numerous languages, I am most proficient in C/C++. While I have studied the PC architecture and have worked with 8086 assembly language, I've only done screen mode changes and the most basic of displays in pure assembly. By the time i was comfortable enough with C++, most if not all gae programming was done through DirectX. While the games themselves were more ambitious and complicated, the actual neccessity to program at the video hardware level was null-and-void. Especially as the need for hardawre acelleration, and compatablilty with numerous video card architectures was rising. Also by this time, for the type of games I was mainly interested in (mainly 2d, and scrollers) there wasn't much restriction on the use of memory, HD space, nevermind something as arbitrary as the number of colors available. While it's still not "easy" to code PC games, much of the low level details are transparent to the programmer (Unless of course you are a professional pushing the limits of todays hardware). But for the casual hobbyist, there is more than enough for everything I could want. I began programming the Atari. Somewhere around 83-84. Mostly in basic and Using loaders to poke in machine language subroutines. Usually little tips I found in a Compute magazine, or book from the local library. I was young and happy doing the simplest of games. I didn't really understand what was going on at the harware level. Nor did I understand how to code a professional looking game. Pretty much any of the advanced techniques. So now I'm coming back to the Atari, to truly understand how things really work. I have the coding skills (data strucures, algorithms, mathematics, theories). But, I am learning for the "First" time the Atari specific hardware, tools, memory locations, 6502 assembly. It's a tremendous amount to learn. I can't do the things that I can do with my eys closed on a PC. It's much more discplined, and getting simplest things to work like video dispalys, takes a lot more low level knowledge. I am enjoying it, and at the same time I am pushing myself at an accelerated pace. I have had to completely change my way of thinking. I know I will stumble alot. But I am prepared for the long haul. I'm not sure how long it will take me to complete this project. While I work on it, I spend an equal ammount of time just learning simpler steps. Yesterday for instance, I spent four hours just picking apart and altering code that Gauntman was nice enough to provide me. I basically set up an antic mode 4 screen completely in assembly language. Experimented with Antic instuctions on various mode lines, and setup a few DLI's, plotted some text on the screen etc. Tonight I plan on loading in my modified character sets, and possibly some scrolling ideas. So I am constantly working. I will see how far I get by the end of the weekend. From these experiments I may have some questions. @Dracon & heaven/tqa Thanks I will have a look tonight. ~zen

zenassem Ignore that and the other refernece to the vertical player. I must not be well today. I don't need to do this. I just need to set SDMCTL 22F. So I still have all four players. ~zen

Goochamn, I asked a similar question in a recent thread. A8ethercart looks promising. http://geocities.com/vlastaar/a8ether/ What do you think? Here was the thread http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=59836 ~zen

Ok I have it. I extracted the folder to my desktop, and because I didn't have an assocition for .asx files, Windows associated with Windows Media Player and gave it an icon. Probably because it's close to .asf. I didn't see it and thought it was some movie clip I must have downloaded I have code genie, so I should set that file extension to be associated with it. "This was another Episiode of Zenassem's embarassing moments" Tune in next time to see what other blunders Zen will make! ~Not quite Zenning today

Dracon, Good to hear from you. Like I said I am very interested in G2F. Truly an amazing program. The first thing I would like to see is an English translation of the documentation. I know you were working on this at one time. I think more people would use it, if they could read the details. I used a lot of trial and error to figure things out, and emaky helped explain certain parts. It's quite possible that G2F already has everything, only I am unable to read the details. I would prefer to use G2F. So I can list: 1) What I can do with G2F and where I would use it with my current knowledge. 2) Why I chose the C=64 "charpad" tool for the character graphics over G2F 3) What details I don't understand about g2f ========== 1) What I can do with G2F and where I would use it: a) Full screen static images, Titlescreens, Logos. I can draw a picture in Paint Shop Pro or Photshop on the PC in 2 colors, and save it as .bmp. I can then open the .bmp file in G2F and color/shade and edit the image for the Atari with spectacular results. b) Porting images to the Atari. Pretty much the same as above. ========== 2)Why I chose the C=64 tol for the character graphics: a) The layout. charpad was designed for this purpose. So it's layout has three tabs: 1.character tab - It can setup a double wide pixel (4x8) area where I can plot the pixels for each character. Since I will be using antic mode 4 I can allocate 128 characters for the set. In the main window choose the character position int the set and then draw in th 4x8 area. After I create my characters I can move to the tile tab. 2.Tiletab tab - Here I can choose how many tiles I would like to create. Each tile is made up of 16 characters in a 4x4 grid. So I can choose the characters I drew in 1. and build my 32x32 pixel tiles. 3.Map tab - Here I can build my level from the tiles created in 2. I can choose hoe many X-tiles and Y-tile for the level. Then I can select the tiles I created and place them on the map to see how they fit together. b) editing: If something doesn't look right I can go back to either the "tile tab" or the "character tab" to make changes. Making a change at the character level will automically change that character in the "tile tab" area, and the final result can be seen in the "map tab" c) Package, saving, and formats: I can save the entire Package as a .ctm and I can save each compenent as seperates (characters .chr, tiles .til, tile colors .tlc, Maps .map). Most importantly... the info.txt file explains how the formats are stored. So I can use the data in my game. ========== What details I don't understand about G2F: a) I'm sure there is a lot that I can't read in the documentation. b) As far As I understand: G2F is great when needing to draw elaborate pictures. (simply stated) It breaks down the picture into modified character sets and has a lot of advanced features for extendeing color through P/M underlays as well as a host of other options including optimizing. What I'm not sure about is, if it's useful the other way around. Manipulate charatcers to -> create tiles ->to creat game levels. When approached from this direction, it's crucial to control the count of characters and character sets. (Not create the best picture possible by using numerous character sets). I will need to create numerous screens from one characterset. Where as, I see G2F's strength is using numerous charactersets to create one screen. I'm not sure if I am making sense to you. And I could be just understanding G2F one way. Like I said it's quite possible that It can do the above as well. c) Laslty, saving and file formats a) My confusion here probably relates to the first request for English Documentation. I can save in a lot of different formats in G2F, including an .xex executable (this is really great for demos and auto boot screens). There is also an option to save as ASM for X-asm. Now here is where my inexperience hurts me. I'm not familiar yet with x-asm. I've been working with Mac/65. I know it shouldn't be a big difference, but for the ammount of information I've been taking in the last few weeks, it's another hurdle. I don't understand how I can access the charactersets from G2F. So, If I am coding a game. How would I load my custom font (characterset) from G2F. I'm missing something here, probably because I can't read how it works. Thanks for any help you can offer. And what will it take to have you finish the document translation BTW, I found a translation service that estimated the cost of accurately translating the number of words at $300.00 ~zen

Analmux, The source that you released with the SMB3 scrolling demo, Am I suppose to be able to do anything with it? That may sound like a stupid question, but when I downloaded the source I expected to see x-asm or .m65 source code. But when Extracting the .zip I only see .dat files and I am unaware of what to do with them. Thanks ~zen

Well this is what I intend to get working by the end of the weekend. (And I'm sure I have some of this wrong) I have most of my level 1 data. - Setup the screen Using 2 Players the entire height of the screen at either side to hide my on screen blitting area. - I'll use the two remaining players as underlays for the character set to add more color. - I'll have to write a software sprite routine that can XOR my characters of the software sprite with the backgorund characters. - I'll have to setup my character set. And create a worldmap array. Then blit the tiles to the screen. -Since I don't truly have a video buffer chain. I will have to draw the new tiles on the sides of the screen underneath the vertical player. This will be a good exercise, but I know I'm already in for trouble. My scrolling would be moving a full 8 pixels at a time. Since I'm using a character mode, my software sprite will also move 8 pixels at a time. So that will be my first attempt. It won't be pretty but It's a step I have to take. Obviously I need to come up with a better technique.

Almost sounds BRUCE LEEish - It's a total system, A different way. I wouldl like to implement these ideas. But, I can see where people are confused. Searching for MCS I have read numerous threads. I have been able to see the results of MCS, from images to music, but I haven't been able to see how to do it. I'm not sure at this point if could even define something as using MCS techniques or not. I've had people suggest setting up an MCS screen. But I have no idea what that means. I downloaded the source Link from Analmux's scrolling SMB demo. But all I see are .dat files. I'm just very perplexed. ~zen

hmmm.. I've read a lot of the history (including Emkay's arrival) and still have a lot more information to pour through. Very interesting read. MCS since 1990. It has to be utterly frustrating to still be trying to explain it, and push people to dig deeper. I'm almost ashamed of posting my first Castlevania screen (that I was quite proud of... for about 30 seconds). You must have been thinking, "14 years later and still another 4+ color screen with misplaced DLI's". But I do thank the people in that first thread for guiding me in the direction of educating myself on some advances that have been made. It's a lot to digest. Gaining knowledge of Atari coding sometimes feels paradoxical. The more I know... The more I come to realize I don't know (paraphrase of a famous quote) There is a big gap between A)"Textbook coding the Atari (with perhaps a few learned techniques" and Z)"Mastering the Atari" and unlocking the hardware - and thinking outside the box. I am trying to move from A->Z after a long time away. In some ways it's still as intimidating as it was back then. I've decided to keep a log of discoveries, experiments, advice and failures I encounter along the way. At some point (hopefully I'll be closer to point Z) I'll release the logs to anyone who cares to view them. I still think that there is a lot of confusion about what can be achieved. I don't believe we have yet seen the best that our Atari can do. Back to the archives... And damn you emkay, analmux, heaven/tqa, Atarimania, (Space Harrier), and all others for inspiring me to have more than four colors and a singled color sprite blob! ~zen

I'm starting to research older forum topics on MCS. I just realized that Emkay developed it. So sorry for not giving you credit. Is analmux enhancing it? That SMB sceen is what inspired me. I've seen some great stuff on the Atari, including the amazing stuff out of Poland, Germany, Czec... But SMB completely shattered every notion I had on what was achievable on the Atari 8-bit! I'll also say that the scrolling levels in the BoinXX demos are smooth, jitter free, with great color and large tiles - something I never thought I'd see. Back on topic: I guess I'm just kind of confused becasue I'm reading the newer posts first. I'm trying to research as much as I can on the theories and implementation of the following... - MCS and it's use of PM overlay/underlay - Scrolling MCS (I think this topic is where I associated analmux and MCS) - Software Sprites (Using analmux's methods in Super Font) and Multiplexing. So I'll continue to read all the older threads on these topics. As I know how annoying it can be to re-hash these discussions, and it isn't hard to do some leg-work with the search feature. But If any of the above are discussed more in-depth on another web page, I would like to know. ==== @emkay So if I am following correctly... Emkay, you developed MCS AND the groundwork for G2F??? Not that I'm trying to suck-up or anything, but these are the most exciting things I have discovered since recently returning to the Atari. And from what I gather so far, you had implemented MCS many years ago. Well, back to my history lesson - to read every thread I can find on these topics. ~zen

Goochman, Thanks for the encouragement. The people behind the games you mention, including Boinxx , are/have develop-ing/ed some of the finest games I have seen. At this moment I'm not sure it's fair to mention me and this project in the same sentence as them. But, by the completion of this project - If it does get mentioned with those titles - I will know that I did it right! I have a long road ahead. It's a good thing that I don't require much sleep... Because to catch up on half of what these guys are doing, is going to take every brain cell of my being, and possibly even the cells on my BIG Toe. @Shawn Jefferson Thanks for the adivce. I too am seriously doubting the color switch. So I will have to get my head around stuff that Analmux is doing (ie. Player underlay/overlay) and software sprites. ...And Sprite multiplexing (which I think Zylobane already knows is going to give me a run for my money...) =============== Sometimes it's good to be a little naive. Because if I truly knew in advance, EVERYTHING I was getting myself into I would NEVER; EVER; decide to program a game; not on any system... not in any language I am quite embarassed to admit that I'm not sure exactly what goes into software sprites. So if anyone, can either explain it, or point me in a direction I would appreciate it. It's not urgent at this point. But It's something I need to figure out in the next couple of weeks! ~zen

Well I will ask for one piece of help. I have read some articles discussing color register changes in mid scanline. But I can't find them now. If anyone has information on this, please share. Because as you can see in the picture above. I would like to switch colors at a certain point during the scanline and then switch back. I know that this is advanced, and maybe not possible on a game screen, I've only seen some information on a static screen. Perhaps I am being to ambitious. It won't break me if I can't do it, but It would add a nice touch! I think G2F can pull this off in Edit Raster. But I could just be naive and mistaken.....

Just redefine the keys to whatever suits you. I believe it's unde input. I myself ususaly use keyset A when playing games. ~zen

With a little help from Paint Shop.... This is my goal! ~zen

@heaven, Here is where I am at. I have a 128 characters to build the entire level 1. Unfortunately right now I don't have room for regualr text and numbers (A-Z,0-9, as well as healthbar indicator, hearts) So I will have to cut down. I have a couple of thoughts but Not sure if they are feasable right now. Option 1. There are a lot of tiles on the first two screens that aren't really used that much once entering into the castle. So it may be possible for me to load in a new character set once inside. Option 2. I am not sure If it's possible to change a few charatcers in the set via DLI (on the same screen). I will have to experiment with that. Before going much further I will have to look more deeply into analmux's method and software sprites. I figure right now I have enough to build level 1. So now I shift to coding and getting all of this on the Atari and See what I can do. I'll do the best I can to get a playable level. Once I have that, I'll feel better about asking people for advanced advice on how to improve it. I want to show people that I am willing to try things myself, and that I am serious about doing this project. ~zen

And if it helps... Here is a shot with all the tiles. (without color change) ~zen

Ok, as soon as I got home today I began redrawing the tileset. This time I drew all the characters using 1 tile each. I found a method in which I could use half the ammount of horizontal pixels. On certain characters I alternate each row: using pixel 1,3,5,7 then 2,4,6,8. And I think it turned out ok. What do you guys think?? This is screen 0 and 1. (keep in mind that the color pallete is "Char Pad" and I believe the the Atari will produce more vivid colors. + I still have to add in the tree tiles in the black area. I will need to use a DLI to change the color of the tileset up there. So it won't be all black for long.) Screen 0 Screen 1 All comments welcome... [/b]

Hey?? I love my 65XE!!! (so I'm glad we at least got that. Although I always wanted the 130XE) But I know what your saying. There's a lot of sutff on that list that I would have liked to have. PBI, 3.5" built in floppy, AMY, 80 mode... When was the first ST being built? know I have the information somewhere. It would have been the same time that Tramiel try to screw Amiga. The reason I'm asking is because a lot of those ideas went into the ST, and i know the Atari engineers had only a year to design and build it. And they used alot of parts off the shelf to do it. But I'm guessing that it's about 2-3 years later than that document... ~zen

@emkay, My last post was being wriiten whhile you were posting that conversion. That actually looks alot better than I had figured. hmmmmm........ Possibly a little rework on that and ...... You are truly a master of G2F. I have to leave for work. But I will take a look when i get home today. Thanks ~zen

I know about the C=64 characterset, but I really wasn't impressed with it on first glance. So my original goal was to make an Atari version that Looked & played better than the C=64 version, and would aim to closer resemble the NES version. As for the number of characters: The Nes Characterset has many characters that i can eliminate without effecting the level too much. I will lose some of the subtle details that are nice, but I can live with that. I think I will combine my initial ambition with some of the ideas presented here. I will have to be creative with my own Charset. Pulling inspiration from all the versions. Nes, C=64, Gameboy etc... So while my goal will still be to come as close to the Nes version as possible, It won't be 100%. I like Analmux's suggestion of enhancing the gameboy version. I will see where these ideas take me. So now I will completely rework the characterset. My immeditae goal is to get a playable entrance sequence. (entrance screen 0 - 8 on the NES). This will allow me to see how Gameplay mechanics will work. Which I'm sure is more important to all of you than how many pixels are in a brick. (I really wish that everyone had a modified controller that utilizes both contoller ports 1 & 2 to allow for using all the buttons on an NES gamepad. Because i really don't like using "UP" for jump.) Thanks for all the feedback. I'll make use of alll of them, and get up a partial playable level. From that I can decide whether the game will be fun to play on the Atari. ~zen

Thanks Zylobane, Yeah I keep on using the term "squished down". But I mean that as an overall appearance. Because it creates a visual distortion. Since the pixels are wider, everything becomes fatter (and because of that it "appears" to be shorter). It's just a ratio thing. So, I realize they are the same height. You are correct with the top picture. I'm not sure if people will accept it or not??? =============================================== It's the same effect as playing an original Gameboy Title on the Gameboy Advance, and spanning the image to take up the entire screen. Now, my double wide character set was absouletly awful. I will need to be smarter and alter the tileset. Then I have the option of whether to use the entire screen or to use the display method that Analmux is using in Super Mario Brothers. It will just take me a little while to figure out what will look best. Thanks for the help. I'll create 2 mock-ups of the game screen and let people here tell me which one they feel is better. ~zen

And I forgot to mention that if I try to double the vertical pixels -and use 4 characters to 1 Nintendo -The images will look identical except... They will be twice as BIG. Which will cause me to Not be able to display as many tiles on the screen. So the graphics will look 2x's bigger yet only half the world can be seen on each screen. Not really an option IMO. So I will try to come "close" to the Nintendo characters; Within in the confines of my 4x8 pixel resolution. I'll just have to be creative. ------------------------------- It's either that, or perhaps Zylobane is on to something that I just don't understand. @emkay, I'm still using G2F for large screen art. But I don't know how to use it for Character->Tile->Map purposes. "Charpad" has all three together with a good description of the file formats. So I can write a Utility to load the images and maps. Plus, If I edit a "character" it automically makes the changes across the other two "Tile" and "Map". It lets you save the entire package as a .ctm as well as the ability to save each of the components individually. If G2F can do this, I will pobably need to wait until a lot of the detail instructions are translated to englis. I understand how to draw, and add some nice effects, but I can't read the details to the file formats. ~zen

I'm not sure that I am understanding... I think a couple of good pictures will help make sure we are all on the same page (mainly me, because I'm not sure my explanation is good). So here are some better, Zoomed-in Pictures Of: The Nintendo chars & tiles VS. My Chars & tiles: Example of Nintendo Character 8x8 4 colors My handrawn Characters Using Charpad 4x8 4 colors (The reason I am using two 4X8 is because I can't control each pixel in the 8x8 grid. In order to get 4 colors My pixels are twice the width. So horizontally I only have 4 individual pixels) Now Here Is a Nintendo Tiles of Sixteen characters in a 4x4 grid And here are my Tiles. they are 32x32 pixles So each of my tiles has Sixteen Characters in a 4x4 grid: BUT! IT TAKES 2 of my tiles (horizontally) to equal the graphic depicted in one Nintendo tile. The final result is squished down tiles. I am actually "drawing the character by hand", using the Nintendo Characters as a reference. The only problem is. The Nintendo can use All 4 colors in an 8x8 character AND control each individual pixel. If I'm not mistaken the Atari antic Mode 4 can have 5 color characters BUT, the pixels are "twice as wide" as "they are high". So truly each character has 4 "individual pixles" in the 8x8 grid. I might be really confused but I don't see a way around this. Except for the fact that I must try to reproduce the nintendo 8x8 character (64 individually controlled pixels) with an Atari 8x8 character (32 individually controlled pixels <4 horizontally/8 Vertically> This would mean losing half the resolution. Obviously my firt attempt at using two charcters to make up the difference didn't work as it squishes the image down and strettches it wide. My other Alternative is to Double the vertical pixels so that it can maintain a square ratio. Hence I would Have to use 4 characters To produce 1 Nintendo character. =============================================== I really hope I am wrong and just mentally exhausted from the ammount of information I have been taking in the last few weeks. If so, perhaps someone can elaborate more on what I am missing. Lastly, The method of doubling up the vertical pixels, is the method I use to draw In Rambrandt. Because in the mode I am using Atari's pixels aren't square. Heres a text example two Atari pixels in Antic Mode 4. Notice the width is 2x's the Height #### #### #### #### To square it I double the pixels vertically #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### This might not look right on the board. because the spacing beteern rows. But I think you can get the Idea that each pixel is 4 "#'s# in length and 4 "#'s# in height. Thanks for all of your help. And I'll appologize in advance if I am just not seeing something correctly. ~zenassem

Ok, I worked with "Char Map" today. I've decide to draw all Characters, Tiles, Maps by hand. Following is my first attempt at creating lvl 1. I was hoping that I could get away with using 2 characters to 1 Nintnendo, but I'm not happy with the results. Everything is squisehd down and stretched wide. So I have 2 options. 1) Double the pixel height to match the double wide character 2) Sacarafice detail and try to create tiles that are 1 to 1 with Nintendo. I'll try both methods and then post here to get input from you guys on which looks better. Well here was the first attempt ..... ~zen