Tyrant

Just booked my room, apparently I'm the first person to use the code to get one of the block-booked rooms lol. I suppose I had better do so too then... [Edit: done, all paid and shiney]

I like the idea of calling them "decks", it's very William Gibson.

Nice, but upon which principles is it working?

Awesome! But they've got the wrong controller

Noooo! I will catch you! Somehow. *shakes fist at your dust cloud*

ARRRGH! So close My advice would be this: Grass is BAD. Any contact with the grass will really kill your speed badly. You can sometimes get away with it but often you'll see the needle dive right the way to the left. The first lap is a write off. The start from zero costs too much time and you're lucky to get it home in under 40 seconds. Treat the first lap as a warm up. The only thing that is important about the first lap are the final two corners. Screw these up and the next lap is a waste too. The first bend needs a little breaking on, but only a tiny bit. If you don't need to break, you weren't going fast enough to begin with. After the Atari and Speed Demon banners there is a shallow turn, followed by the first really nasty bend. Slow down quite a lot here, but not too much. There's a sweet spot where you just miss the grass but carry on round at almost full speed. The final two bends are critical, and really tricky to get right. Again you need to break just enough but not too much. You want to go into the first bend at about 275, and come out of the final one at nearly 360.

So close, but I couldn't quite get into first... yet.

Basically there are two kinds of mice in the world, old Atari/Amoeba mice which, as you say, output the pulses directly as two pairs of square waves, and pc mice which output data serially. The first kind (technically called bus mice) basically they just hook the outputs from the sensor into the computer. They require the computer do all of the processing and basically watch the mouse like a hawk (watching a mouse), as any missed pulses will result in a loss of precision or seemingly random movement. On the ST there is a dedicated processor on the keyboard watching the mouse constantly. It is not left up to the CPU, the CPU just asks the mouse processor how far the mouse has moved since the last time it asked, and it gets told it. This is pretty much exactly how serial mice work, except that in a serial mouse, the dedicated processor is on the mouse itself, and it just reports (when asked), how far it has travelled since the last time it was asked (as well as button states, obv). On the Jaguar you *could* use Jerry to watch the mouse, but like I said you would have to do it on an extremely fast interrupt. A better idea would be to use a mouse with a dedicated processor, either on an adaptor or on the mouse itself. This could watch the mouse and output its data in the bank-switching arrangement atari suggested (look at analog joysticks, it's almost the same scheme). Another alternative would be to hook up a serial mouse to the Jaguar's serial port on the back. The adaptor would be relatively simple to build and it would, again, take the load off the Jag's processors. The problem, however, is that there are currently two games in development which support bus mice (as well as a well known adaptor schematic for ST mice), and it does not seem likely that either Matthias or Lars would want to integrate support for yet another type of mouse which nobody has. What we need is for someone to come up with a really simple adaptor pcb and a simple drop-in bit of 68k code that reads it, and make both available. I agree. It seems like a hard limit to me, and the Vcc and GND rails supplied to the controller do appear to be the main ones of the system (accidentally shorting them together causes the Jag to crash spectacularly). I've been trying to advise against using bus mice like this for years, but I hadn't considered the power problems.

It does mean however that with a small adaptor (easily made with no electronic knowledge required) you can upload homebrew games into it, which adds value to it, but not much monetary value to its resale price.

Of course it is, I couldn't agree more. That's not why I was asking about them What really got me thinking was how many games actually make good use of the upper buttons, and how many can be played with just the extra buttons without needing the keypad.

oops double-post.

Great list everyone, thanks! I'm interested in all of them so I can see different ways dual-sticks have been used. Naturally a lot of games will be top-down shooters, but to a certain extent once you've seen one of them you've seen them all, there's only so many variables to change with the formula. The interesting thing is working out what other games have been done with the dual-stick layout. Cool. Only problem is that it only covers games that are emulated in MAME. It's a good start, though... That is indeed a good start, thanks! Do you happen to have that list still?

I was wondering that myself. What can you use a Jaguar mouse on? I'd certainly buy one if there were any mouse games! If only Cannon Fodder had mouse support... As has already been said, the upcoming Impulse X will support mouse input, as will Eerievale, when it is eventually released. Also I believe mice can be used on T2k as a poor-mans rotary.

I'm looking to find a list of games that utilise a dual stick control system like robotron, but google is only giving me short lists of a few here and a few there. Thanks in advance.

Matthias has mouse-supporting routines & infos. Check about 1/2 way down the page: M D GAMES. His next release will support it Like I said earlier, I just hope he polls the mouse fast enough to keep up with an 800dpi monster. Yea, that's true. The exact model of mouse isn't chosen yet so he can experiment a bit. If he could make one up as an adaptor I'd be happy to go test all the different flavours I have here & buy a half dozen or so more to test with... I'm pretty hard on my mice & I have to say these Logitech optical mice are great value, if I can have the same type of mouse on my PC, Falcon & Jaguar I'll be happy Talk with him about it. It should be possible. As I once suggested, there should be enough time to poll for changes (and write them into a buffer) inside the sound-rendering interrupt, and I'm pretty sure that runs often enough to keep up with... about 27 inches per second mouse movement at 800dpi from a 22khz sample rate.

Matthias has mouse-supporting routines & infos. Check about 1/2 way down the page: M D GAMES. His next release will support it Like I said earlier, I just hope he polls the mouse fast enough to keep up with an 800dpi monster.

In my part of london you're forever seeing stuff left on the pavement, no need to post online about it, it'll be gone within the day. Someone finds a home for everything.

Ah, so they're super-secret walled garden members-only tools then? No wonder nobody else has heard of them.

What on earth is your problem?! Srsly, chill out man.

Don't forget Shisen-Sho, another popular computer game with Mahjong tiles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shisen-Sho

I think you're misremembering ; according to the schematic, everything except the audio section is powered down if there's no cartridge inserted. Since philexile's Jag's LED lights up even when it doesn't boot, the cartridge detection is not the problem I'll have a check again when I'm back home, but I thought the video did produce a black screen in that situation, could be wrong. However you're right that if the LED lights up, it shouldn't be a problem with that mechanism. Uh... lets see... * Tripple-BIOS mod (Retail, BJL, Green-Stub) * 50/60Hz switch with LED change * Cart insert pins soldered together * Stop cable header populated * Integrated resistor on Stop cable header all of these were done by Stone btw, not me, although I do plan to do an A/V mod soon. The only other mod I've seen people do is adding the ADC chips, but mine was a K series which had them already, so I don't need to do that. I've also had my Alpine upgraded with remote reset and halt mods.

I think it's a pretty neat thing. Sure it's basically just a CD-Bypass CD, but that's something that's been missing for a while now.

Sounds like a brilliant idea. I'd be interested in one for the Jaguar, but why not simply make them all with 9 pin ends and make a 9-15 way adaptor. I suppose it would increase the cost slightly, but it adds flexibility. Also, one thing to note: On the ST, mice are read by a dedicated processor on the keyboard. On the Jaguar, polling for changes is entirely up to the programmer. I hope an 800dpi mouse doesn't lead to pulses being transmitted too fast to be recognised.

I just had one final idea to try before you give up. I'm sorry it didn't occur to me before, but it's not a problem I ever really see (as you'll see). The Jaguar is supposed to only power up when a cartridge is inserted. The exact reason for this design decision is lost to the mysteries of time, but it does mean there's a lot of Jags sold "as seen" because the owner didn't have any games and thus couldn't power it up. It is possibly also the source of your problems, because not all of the system shuts down. As far as I remember, the video circuits are still active when the power switch is depressed and no cartridge is detected. Someone else can hopefully confirm this (I'm at my gf's for the weekend so don't have any stock-Jaguars around). My main Jaguar has had every modification under the sun done to it, including a very simple solder-bridge connecting two pins of the cartridge slot. I forget which two, but they're only used to detect if a cartridge is inserted, which has the effect that my Jag will boot even without a cartridge, and then give a red-screen. It's useful if I ever switch to the BJL ROM. I'm not certain if this is the problem you're having, but cross-connecting those pins permanently won't do any harm, and might fix your issues.

Ah-ha, I'd seen those bits before but always wondered what the screws look like.