spacecadet

The HiSaturn Navi is officially licensed - the Treamcast, as far as I know, is not. Makes a big difference if you ask me... I don't really remember the history of the Treamcast but I believe Sega had sort of opened the Dreamcast up to anyone who wanted it at that point. So I don't think the Treamcast is an outright bootleg (I may be wrong on that, though), but it's not an officially sanctioned product. It's like all those Famiclones out there; anybody can make a Famiclone these days because Nintendo has opened up the platform, but these are almost all universally worthless from both a collector's and a quality standpoint. (Some of them are actually ok and some of them even look kind of cool, but they're still just no-name commodity hardware.) If I'm wrong on the Treamcast, someone correct me. The HiSaturn Navi is from one of Sega's actual hardware partners, though, and it's from a real name brand, which makes it a bit more desirable even ignoring the rarity. (I doubt you'd see a Treamcast selling for $1,900.)

Here: http://nfg.2y.net/games/hisaturn/ Be sure to click on the auction link just below the pic, and make sure you're sitting down.

There are at least eight different import Saturn models that I know of, and there may be more. The ones I know of: * "Grey" Sega Saturn - the original model (equivalent to the "oval button" systems in the US). * "White" Sega Saturn - the second revision (equivalent to the "round button" systems in the US). * "Skeleton" Sega Saturn - first version (says "This Is Cool" on the lid). * "Skeleton" Sega Saturn - second version (no "This Is Cool", lighter in color than the older model, comes with some Derby Stallion stickers). * JVC V-Saturn * Hitachi Hi-Saturn * Hitachi Hi-Saturn Navi * Samsung Saturn Anyway, you can really go nuts just collecting Saturn consoles, much less games. The Samsung and Hi-Saturn Navi models are legitimately rare (in fact, for a while there was debate about whether the Samsung model even existed - nobody had seen it outside Korea - but this page pretty much confirms it for me). The second skeleton model is easier to find but is numerically probably the rarest of all Saturn consoles (20,000 produced) - it's just easier to find right now because it was the last model to leave the production line and the system was not popular at that point. Better pick one up while you can if you want one. The Hi-Saturn Navi is the only model that was significantly re-designed. This thing is sort of the holy grail of Saturns - it has upgraded capabilities and even has built-in support for an attachable LCD screen. (Finding one with the screen is even harder than finding one without.) I personally think a lot of people confuse the Hi-Saturn and the Hi-Saturn Navi - the regular Hi-Saturn comes up on Ebay quite often and they always sell for some pretty ridiculous prices. There's nothing special about the regular Hi-Saturn, though, and they're not particularly rare. Same is true of the JVC model. Although both are maybe a bit more "exotic" just because they're not Sega. I have a JVC V-Saturn, a second skeleton model, and a US Saturn (as an American, I like to tell people that both my Japanese models were bought "in the wild" in Japan, and the skeleton model was bought new). I actually do hope to eventually have every Saturn model from around the world but I doubt that will ever happen. I at least need to pick up a white Japanese system at some point... these are still really easy to come by, though, so there's still time. Some of the other models are getting really tough to find.

How did you happen to come across 5 boxed units of a rare Japanese system in Sweden, when even people in Japan can't find them? Something sounds fishy about this story I'm really just curious - I'd think you'd have to have a lot of pull to get five or more of these things in boxes.

Likely sold out forever. NCSX isn't restocking much DC stuff, nor could they in most cases. When did this game come out? If it's even a little bit old (like, say, more than six months), I'd say Ebay is probably your only real option unless you know somebody in Japan who can cruise around the used stores there.

It's used in *every* game. It's just a standard Saturn pad with an *extra* analog control stick. The d-pad still works just like on all the other Saturn controllers - the only difference is it's the best d-pad available on any controller. The analog pad could be switched on or off as needed. btw, to whoever asked, I wasn't just "calling" it the Saturn 3D pad, that's its name. See this pic: http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSPr...T-3DCont__1.jpg Notice in the top right it says "3D CONTROL PAD". Yes, this is the father of the Dreamcast pad, but Sega went and took basically the perfect controller and sapped all the good stuff out of it. The 3D pad is so friggin' comfortable, with such an awesome disc-shaped d-pad, the cord going the right way out (and detachable!), 6 buttons in a standard configuration *plus* triggers... I mean it was perfect. The DC pad has more things wrong with it than I can even count - I don't even know why they made most of the changes they did, they don't make any sense whatsoever.

Ummmm......why? 899071[/snapback] Yeah... I have both and love both. And like I said before, the Saturn has a lot of exclusives that the DC doesn't have (and vice versa). I wouldn't go by that list in the previous post - I wouldn't call Shenmue a better PDS, for example (they are totally different!), or Ikaruga a better Radiant Silvergun just because one came out later than the other and they're both shooters. The DC has absolutely no equivalent to Guardian Heroes, NiGHTS Into Dreams, Burning Rangers, Silhouette Mirage or Shining Force III, for example. Other games the DC has similar equivalents but they are not the same, in the same way Halo and Killzone are equivalent but not the same. I mean would you rather play Soukyugurentai or Giga Wing? It's a matter of taste, but they are different - even though they're in the same genre. That doesn't mean you shouldn't also have the DC - I mean the Saturn has no Crazy Taxi, no Soul Calibur, no Jet Set Radio. I just don't see why they have to compete. It's not a question of buying one or the other; they are both awesome systems that everyone who likes games should own. btw, yes, to get the most out of the Saturn, you have to import. Some people make it sound like this is a big deal, though, which it isn't. You don't even have to mod your Saturn. The Saturn has a cartridge slot, and among the many things you can put in this slot is a cartridge that will disable all region protection. A basic version of this kind of cart costs less than 10 bucks. I have a 5-in-1 cart (which has memory backup, and extra VRAM for Capcom and SNK games, similar to the N64's RAM Pak thing) that costs a bit more but does basically everything. Or you can just get your system modded. But either way, it's very easy to mod and the games these days are no more expensive than domestic ones... which is to say rare ones are really, really expensive, but common ones are not.

Saturn prices are going up. Certainly sports games are worthless as always, but Guardian Heroes and a system for $40? No chance unless the seller is completely clueless. Guardian Heroes is a $60-$80 game on its own, depending on condition. And I think most Saturn owners at this point do know its rarity and reputation. Saturn systems on Ebay almost always go for at least $40 these days, unless it's a completely bare system in poor condition. You can probably still find them for less out in the wild, but that'll change as people get wind of Ebay prices, same as it has for other systems. And Ebay prices for Saturn stuff are only going up and up. Panzer Dragoon, for example, which was a $5 game back at the end of the Saturn's life, now regularly fetches $30. Rarer domestic stuff like Burning Rangers, Guardian Heroes and Shining Force III go for $50-$100. And holy grail games like Panzer Dragon Saga and Radiant Silvergun usually sell for over $200. I'd say whether or not this system is worth it depends on its condition, which version system it is (the round button system is newer and more reliable), any included accessories and how many and which games are included. If it's really in poor shape and only has one or two sports games, then no, it's probably not worth it and you could probably do better just going to Ebay. If it's in good shape and it has a few non-sports games, then it's probably worth it. But I don't really think you should expect to get a $60 game with a system for $40. btw, there are still plenty of good, cheap games to be had, and you can probably even still find a lot of stuff out in the wild. But people have definitely taken notice of the system now that it's gone and have started collecting for it. It's got a better reputation now than it did when it was current. A lot of its better games still hold up very well, especially as a lot of its best games are 2D games and many of them were exclusive. A lot of people consider it the ultimate 2D system.

To paraphrase a famous quote... New means new! That's it. Once any part of the package has touched human hands that wouldn't have how it left the factory, it's no longer new. I get so sick of these auctions where items are described as new that are clearly outside the packaging in the pictures, just because the seller has never personally used it. That's meaningless. The main point is once the packaging is opened, you no longer have any point of reference for what happened to that game prior to your ownership. If a game is new and unopened, you know for a fact that it has never been played, never been touched. If the packaging is opened, it may not have ever actually been played, or it may have been played every single day and just kept in like-new condition. It's not just a question of semantics, it's the difference between knowing the complete history of a game and knowing absolutely nothing about the history of a game. Sellers don't think this matters because they're using the term "new" as a grade of playing condition. But that's not really what matters when you describe a classic game as "new" (if all anyone cares about is playing a game, "mint" is perfectly fine). The only people who care about whether or not a classic game is "new" are collectors. And to collectors, new means new - it's really got nothing to do with condition. A box could be totally crushed and beat up, but if it's not opened, it's still new. Most collectors probably will not even open most "new" classic games if that's what they really are - they'll buy a bare cart in addition if they just want to play. Anyway, technically any game that's been opened but is in new condition can only be described as "like-new". As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the package is open it can never be described as "new" again. (It's the same thing as what happens as soon as you drive a new car off the dealer lot. You could drive it 20 feet, you could drive it less than all the test drives ever put on its odometer - as soon as it's off that lot in your possession, it's a used car.)

No, it is that rare. Coincidences do happen. I've been to Japan plenty of times and only ever saw one of these there and that was about six years ago (like a moron, I didn't buy it). I've never actually seen another one on Yahoo Japan, although they do probably turn up there more often than they do on Ebay. I have checked various times on Yahoo Japan in the past and never saw one before, though. btw, the auction I actually posted above is gone now. I don't know why - I refreshed the same page earlier today and it asked me to log in, then when I went back and just searched for 2800 in the video game section it doesn't show up. Supposedly it had 8 days left, but it seems like the listing is totally gone at this point. No other 2800 auctions there at the moment.

Well, it's tough to directly compare, but I just looked it up to verify my earlier statement and the N64 does have a quoted polygon throughput of 150,000 polygons per second vs. a maximum of 360,000 per second for the PS1 (though a more realistic comparison would be the 180,000 shaded and textured polygons per second Sony also quotes, given that Nintendo always quotes performance with these features turned on). I think performance-wise they are actually about equivalent, but the N64 had some extra graphical features that, if not used judiciously, could really slow things down. So, you've got a lot of games on N64 that run really poorly and look really muddy and yucky because they've got too much filtering and whatnot going on. I also think the actual TV output of the N64 was really lacking - the DAC, or the analog circuitry alone or whatever that actually sent the signal out to the TV. I'm convinced this is where a lot of the blurriness comes from - you just could never see a sharp edge in any N64 game whether you were using s-video or not. Nintendo's own games always look the best on any of their systems and that's true of the N64 also. The PSX, though, had a lot of great-looking games from third parties too. Final Fantasy VIII and IX, Chrono Cross, Ridge Racer 4, the Wipeout series, Fear Effect II, Vagrant Story, Gran Turismo 2, I mean these were all really good looking games. I'd put up any of the later Squaresoft RPG's against any of Nintendo's Mario or Zelda games for the N64 any day of the week. Oddly enough, the Saturn had by far the best raw 3D performance of any of that era's systems. The problem was nobody but Sega could figure out how to access it and even Sega only really managed it on a few games (Virtua Fighter 2, for example, remained the best-looking fighting game on any system until Soul Calibur on the DC). The Saturn was also missing 3D features like transparency, which both the N64 and PS1 had, and filtering, which the N64 had but not the PS1. Overall I think the PS1 had the best graphical package, the best balance of features and performance of that era. The N64 had some nice looking games but overall it just felt really unrefined.

Because you couldn't use one for more than a couple of minutes before it broke. I kinda like the 5200 controllers but if you were around at the time, you knew why they sucked. There's nothing worse than getting your brand new, expensive system home and a month later having to go out and buy a replacement set of controllers. Plus, as someone else said, any controller with side-mounted fire buttons is crap. Thank god the industry moved away from this design.

Well, I dunno about that, but the big problem I have with the N64 controller is ergonomics. It's too big, too heavy, and it requires you to literally move the positioning of your hands and re-grip it to use the analog stick. This makes games that require the use of both very difficult. And the stick itself will rip your thumb to shreds if you use it long enough (I had the same issue with the DC pad thumbstick). The d-pad is no picnic either. Then, of course, there's the Z button. I'd put the N64 controller near the bottom of my controller rankings. If not for the original Xbox controller, I'd easily put it dead last among modern first-party controllers. What the heck, I've got some time to kill so I'll just put a ranking list together for all the systems I've played. This isn't complete, just a list of first-party controllers for systems I've actually played (not necessarily the pack-in controllers, but any general-purpose controllers made for a system by its original manufacturer): 1. Sega Saturn 3D pad 2. Sega arcade sticks other than the US (and later Japanese) Saturn model 3. GameCube Wavebird 4. GameCube stock pad 5. Neo Geo AES original model joystick 6. Sony Dual Shock 2 7. MS Xbox "Controller S" 8. Sega Saturn pad (2nd version) - some people like this pad best of all, but I gotta put it at #8 because it has no analog controls and it's not as good of a "digital" controller as any real arcade stick. It is the best digital-only gamepad I've used, though. 9. Sega Genesis 6 button controller - basically the exact same pad as the Saturn pad in a slightly different plastic mold. 10. Sega Genesis stock (3 button) controller, original version. 11. Super NES stock pad - some may not agree with my putting the stock Genny pad over the SNES pad, but if you use both long enough I think the Genny pad definitely wins out with its snappier, bigger buttons and its more responsive d-pad. 12. Sega Dreamcast stock controller 13. Jaguar stock controller 14. Original PSX digital gamepad 15. N64 stock controller 16. 1977 Atari VCS joystick (the one with the springs) 17. NEC Turbo Grafx 16 stock pad 18. Atari 2800/Sears Video Arcade II controller 19. Atari 7800 joystick (I have not tried the European gamepad) 20. Nintendo NES stock pad 21. Sega Saturn stock pad (1st version) 22. MS Xbox stock controller (original "canned ham" version) 23. Intellivision controller 24. Coleco Vision controller 25. Atari 5200 controller I think in general, Sega has the most distinguished record of first-party controllers, but they've had a few duds too. I'm actually kinda surprised to see that Atari has probably the worst overall record, in my eyes. A lot of manufacturers have also done some great one-off controllers, a few of which have already been mentioned... in my experience almost any of these made by Sega (the Twin Sticks, any light gun, the Samba De Amigo maracas, etc.) and even most made by other manufacturers (the Nintendo bongos) have been awesome. But I wouldn't put them in the list because they're not really general-purpose controllers. (Though if you want an evening worth of entertainment, try to play all your other Dreamcast games with the maracas. It does work!)

Yeah, but like you say, it's too specialized. It's the only way to play Virtual On properly, though (the PS2 dual shock pad is ok, but the Saturn and DC standard pads were no substitute with only a single stick). But I can't nominate it for "best controller" because it doesn't really work well with many games... if I was going to nominate something like the Twin Sticks, I'd have to consider stuff like the Steel Battalion controller too, which is just getting ridiculous. I actually don't own a set of Twin Sticks but I wish I did. Last time I was in Japan you could buy them new for 1500 yen; I just couldn't carry them back with me at that point, I'd bought too much already. I'll pick one up eventually...

Best all-around controller has to be the Saturn 3D pad. Extremely comfortable, still the best d-pad ever made, great 6-button layout, and just an all-around good feel. For arcade-style controllers, probably all of Sega's "real" first-party arcade sticks - the original Saturn Virtua Stick, the Dreamcast arcade stick, the new PC version of the Virtua Stick, the Virtua Fighter Stick for PS2, etc. All of these are basically the same thing and they're all exactly like real Japanese arcade machines. For best third-party controller I'd nominate the MadCatz Microcon - especially the Xbox version, which is even smaller than the Controller S. For arcade sticks, I'd go with any Hori arcade stick (almost all of them are excellent), or the original Interact Alloy Arcade Stick for the Dreamcast (the Shadowblade for PS2 looks the same other than the color, but the buttons feel completely different). Of course, there's also stuff like the X-Arcade that's even better, but I'm sort of trying to limit myself to mass-produced, cheap stuff that you could buy at Best Buy or whatever. As for the worst controller, gotta be a tie between the 5200 and Coleco Vision pads. The 5200 controllers break easily but the CV controllers break your hands easily. Massive cramps from using those things when I was younger.

Yeah, 8 days left and no BIN (I don't think Yahoo has such a feature). I'm curious to see what both of these finally sell for - I am sure they will both sell, only question is for how much.

Just FYI, these come up a lot and I've seen BINs lower than this. This isn't the stick you want. The Japanese stick comes up every now and then and if you saw a $10 BIN on that, I'd say that's a steal. I keep trying to win these things when they come up and I never do... here's the most recent one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=8206579482 Even $31 is not bad for that stick, though... I almost placed a last minute bid on that. $10 for the stick you found is probably about right, but I doubt I'd even pay that much. It's not a very good stick.

I think the only ones that *may* someday be worth a bit of money are any copies that are actually re-stickered with an AO rating. Those will probably be genuinely rare (or at least uncommon), because few stores are going to bother doing that, most people who want the game already have it, and there will be a "remastered" version of the game out shortly that'll be back to an M rating anyway. Of course, anybody can make a sticker, but I'm sure like anything else it will be fairly easy to tell a genuine AO sticker from a home-made one. Regular copies of the original version of the game will be worth nothing, though. Anybody who's trying to profit off this had best do it right now... and even now, I doubt most of these people are going to make any money. It sure looks like there are plenty of cheap auctions to go along with the expensive ones even now.

First auction in that list at the moment has a BIN of 1 cent. Something fisy about that. Or maybe the dude just made a mistake, in your favor! A lot of auctions near the top of the list with reasonable $20-$30 BINs, though. The expensive ones seem further down. I think it's possible some people tried to gouge, and then a bunch of other people came in and basically shut them down with their more reasonably priced auctions.

It's no secret they're the same machine (though the 2800's were made in a different factory). The difference is there are probably still about 10,000 Sears machines in existence and probably only a few hundred 2800's, especially with the box. And probably 90% of those that are left are still in Japan and you will never have access to them. The sales numbers on the 2800 even when it was new were pretty ridiculous (on the low end). And this was back before people really started collecting this stuff, especially in Japan, so most of them that were bought got thrown out long ago. I have only ever personally seen one other one with a box anywhere, let alone for sale on ebay. This is the first one I've seen on ebay. You never even see these for sale in Japan. Although, if you guys really want to cry, I just did a check on Yahoo Japan and there is one more there: http://page8.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h29742619 Won't ship overseas, though. And only one game included (the Japanese games alone are pretty expensive). You can see his starting bid is close to $200, so even in the home market of Japan, when these do go, they go for a lot. That's probably nearly equivalent to the $350 starting bid with three boxed games on the unit on ebay. So, now I've seen three of these in my life

Ok, this might be somebody's here, but I've never seen a boxed 2800 come up in an Ebay auction before, so maybe someone else out there is interested (I would be, if I had $750 to waste!): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...5&tc=photo&rd=1 If this is someone here, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it yet...

Might want to check if that's a system subject to the power cord recall... as we all know the issue is really with the power supply, so if this woman couldn't get it to turn on that might be why. The contacts on those old power supplies go bad when the system is moved too much, and maybe you've got it in a position right now where they're sticking. Go to the Xbox web site and plug in your serial #. If it comes up ok, I'd say you got a steal and you're good as gold right now. If it comes up as a system subject to the recall, then I'd say you still got a good deal, but you probably want to do something about that power supply because from the experience of the previous owner it sounds like it's probably going bad.

I don't think "make an offer" works anywhere. Most decent salesmen will tell you the same thing (I used to be a salesman... not a good one, but I knew plenty who were). I was actually pretty shocked when buying a car a week ago and my salesperson pulled this on me... but I wasn't surprised afterwards when she told me I was the only person she'd ever dealt with that didn't get pissed off when she did that. (Luckily I'd done my homework and knew exactly how much dealer invoice was.) I think if someone's selling something, it's pretty obvious they've got an idea of what it's worth or they wouldn't be selling it. So why not just tell people what you think it's worth? Otherwise it just seems like you're trying to rip off someone who doesn't know any better, because you're obviously not going to sell it for less than it's worth. I mean if somebody offered you $500 because they'd never seen one of these before, would you take it? What if they offered you $25? That's what it always seems like people are hoping for with these "make an offer" deals, that somebody's going to offer a lot more than something's worth. If you're just trying to get what it's worth, why not just say so? (Ebay is a little different because it's more of a transparent and competitive process, vs. just dealing with a bunch of PM's.) I'm not saying people who do this are dishonest, just that I don't think it's helpful to either buyers or sellers... and it's actually kind of annoying to people who might be interested in what you're selling. (Obviously I was interested in this X'Eye or I wouldn't be here.)

Well, Nintendo didn't "lose" Rare. They sold their share in the company willingly. What has MS gotten from Rare to justify their investment? Grabbed by the Ghoulies? Please! MS will have PD0 as a launch game for Xbox 360 but I'm not sure that would have been worth Nintendo waiting four years for and passing up $350 million in cash (not to mention the continuing costs of funding Rare). So I think Nintendo got the better end of that deal. I should clarify my earlier comments and say that I actually like the GameCube a lot better than the N64 - I don't think the GCN does anything worse than the N64 does and in fact I think it's a far more polished system. The N64 was really rough around the edges - its textures were blurry, its frame rates choppy, its graphics extremely over-hyped (the reason Nintendo doesn't hype their graphics anymore is because they got burned so bad with their "SGI workstation-quality" quotes from before the N64's release). A lot of games on it looked really bad. Despite being a 64 bit system it actually had a much lower polygon throughput than the PSX (something like 360,000 to 170,000 per second). It did run at higher resolutions and had features like bilinear filtering that the PSX lacked, but overall I think most PSX games look and run smoother than comparable games on the N64. The GameCube, though, is almost flawless as a game system - every game I own for it looks fantastic, runs completely smoothly (whether first party or third party) and with basically no load times despite being optical media-based. I also love the controller. The problem with it is just Nintendo's policies regarding game development and how they treat third party developers. They also haven't marketed it particularly well, and they have been outspent by MS and Sony. And of course, there's no real online push for the GameCube, which while I think is overrated, is still 2 million Xbox users and 4-5 million PS2 users that may have been GameCube owners instead. I think it's a shame, but blame Nintendo. The system itself is great, though. The N64 was inferior even for its time, I think, despite selling more units... the SNES sold 46 million and a lot of people did buy based on brand loyalty. That only lasts for so long, though... the GameCube was wounded from the start by the N64's reputation.

Well, it sounds like you're looking back on the N64 with sort of rose-colored glasses. I see you're in the UK so maybe it was different there, but the N64 didn't have a great reputation in the US and was not as popular as the PlayStation. It did have a lot of really good first-party games and that was the main reason people bought it, although it also had two really popular first-person shooters in Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. And it sold a decent number of systems but nowhere near the amount of the NES or SNES that came before it. The GameCube has just continued Nintendo's long, slow decline in home console sales. I saw a chart somebody had posted a while back that showed Nintendo's console sales basically going in a straight line down since the NES, from 65 million for the NES to 46 million for the SNES to 30 million for the N64 to just under 20 million for the GameCube. I'd say this is more a result of some of Nintendo's long-standing policies regarding third-party development combined with their diminishing first-party output (especially with regard to establishing new "franchises" - they've been mainly milking the same ones dry for decades now).