Leeroy ST
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Posts posted by Leeroy ST
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18 minutes ago, Muddyfunster said:
Let's get something clear. I'm not making the poor argument.
You are the one stating categorically that the 7800 is better at 3d than the A8 range. You offer nothing to back that statement up.
Rest of your post is an attempt to roll the subject.
This is very simple, you are the one that has nothing to back up their position.
I have in execution the 7800 software title F18 Hornet.
Since you think you're informed all you have to do is show that obviously more technically demanding game on the XEGS or earlier A8 line computers. It's really just that simple.
All you're doing so far is making pointless paragraphs trying to confuse the topic to act like your winning an imaginary argument, you're not.
You either can show the obviously technically impressive commercial release that's more demanding than F18 on 7800, or you admit you put your foot in your mouth.
You're only supporting the position no one had been able to produce a comparable or better software title. That's why you tried shifting the posts earlier to a less demanding game that "may" run worse on the 7800 because of hardware features of the A8 line, but that is the same as saying a game on 3DO being better than on PSX because it took advantage of the formers hardware features proves the former is more powerful than the latter.
We both know that's false
Remember your informed, but can't find that game to prove you are.
1 hour ago, agradeneu said:No, they are just shifting left and right and objects look like pixelated sprites to me. It's pseudo 3D IMO.
You're ignorance is noted, but the gifs of the game have already been posted in the 7800 subforum thread about this same game. Also it's been talked about here and other sites in the past, Several objects and all the buildings are polygons, you can look at them from multiple angles, they are solid, they are not sprites. Including one enemy as well. There are however SOME other enemies and some other objects are sprites that scale in.
However to say the polygons are shifting sprites is nonsense. In that thread there is even a gif of a player going past a building and you can view part of the side and the shadows as you go past and nothing shifts around, it's a polygon object you are literally passing and moving away from.
And considering you can flip the plane south you can see the front and back of the polygons as well.
Any write up on the game talks about polygons, you'd think someone somewhere would call them sprites if they were shifting sprites as you say.
Strange how only you came to this conclusion over the years they were sprites. Hmmm.
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1 hour ago, Laner said:
While the C128 was little more than a glorified C64 in terms of how it was utilized, it ended up selling nearly 6 million units. Purely from a sales perspective, it was a success. It was never meant to set the world on fire, but rather to fill the gap in Commodore’s lineup as they prepped the launch of the Amiga.
But we are taking in the US, and the C128 hurt the brand there. It may have been worth it worldwide but it was a factor in commodore losing an important market.
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2 hours ago, NoBloodyXLOrE said:
I have to disagree with your comment. TV advertisements for the XEGS do tout its ability to play both cartridge and disk-based games, but all of the best Atari 8-bit games are on cartridge anyway. And while the XEGS was functional as a computer, by 1987, it was no more technically impressive than the other low-end computer option, the C64, with even less productivity software, so other than a handful of productivity applications, some telecommunications software, and BASIC, it just couldn't stack up, especially against "real" computers like the Amiga, PC, and Atari ST.
If XEGS was two years earlier the turn into computer feature may have been a good deal, especially if it retained an old price. It would also be when the 16-bits were new with problems and weren't so hot out the gate.
By end of 87, so may as well be 88, you are basically selling a machine that can turn into an A8 or C64 (which many already had) with the Amiga and cheaper ST now with more software and better pricing.
In Europe there would be even more options making the Xegs computer hybrid approach even more irrelevant.
They really should have just went all in on Xegs being a game machine imo.
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1 hour ago, Muddyfunster said:
Still waiting for some evidence that the 7800 was better on 3D than the A8 range. Asking for something more impressive than the 7800 version of F18 isn't evidence.
You are continuing to not name any titles more technically impressive/demanding on XEGS than F18 on 7800. I did bring up in execution.
On paper theoreticals are fine but that's just that, on paper. F18 is evidence the 7800 could produce a relatively demanding 3D game than a XEGS specced machine. If you make the claim that the XEGS specced machine is better, or in your case obviously better, than you should be able to find a company who released a game showing this. You wouldn't make this poor argument with the Jaguar, why is the XEGS different?
1 hour ago, Muddyfunster said:By your argument then, the 7800 could do Stunt Car Racer better than the A8 as it's better at 3D, right?
This is not addressing the point, instead you're trying to move the post. While possible, I never made this argument I said there wasn't any polygonal game (yet seen) that is as demanding on XEGS or more as you imply, than F18 on the 7800. Mentioning Stunt Car racer actually works against you because it's not a more hardware demanding title. The possibility that SCR may or may not work as well on a 7800 because of features of the hardware has nothing to do with actual power, otherwise games superior on 3DO than PSX due to hardware features would mean 3DO is stronger than PSX. It's not, instead with an original game of the same genre/type the PSX would prove much more powerful.
Issue is I see no commercial release proving better 3D on XEGS or before than F18 on the 7800.
This is what happens when YOU the accuser are uninformed and think you're smarter than you actually are. Resulting in dishonest tactics and trying to spin the argument.
You can easily resolve this by just acknowledging and fulfilling the request. Just post the game and it's done that's more demanding.
1 hour ago, agradeneu said:And why was a polygon engine using prescaling sprites?
This was not only not said, but you attempted to cut out the context by removing the word "with" to create this intentionally fake argument.
1 hour ago, agradeneu said:What makes you so sure that F18 Hornet was a polygon 3D engine?
Various objects and all the buildings are polygons, you can view them at multiple angles, they are all filled, close up there's limited texturing, and one of the vehicles is also made up polygons though more flat and pixelated.
In addition there's scaling sprites with the polygons, it's an ambitious and technically impressive game, if the XEGS spec or lower Atari computers were more capable of polygon 3D titles, let alone having that combined with another graphical implementation that requires relatively powerful hardware, then where is the game that shows it?
Remember F18 was thrown together by a small team way after it was clear 7800 would have a limited buying base. The 8-bit line until death of Xegs is 79-90/91 surely you can just post this powerful game that just ends the argument showing more demanding graphics, if it exists. And Battlezone isn't that game.
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Was Pac & Pal ever released on any console or computer before the compilations?
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While the goal seems to be mixed, it's clear
InfogramesAtari SA intended for the VCS to he somewhat competitive, and being able to run windows on it is a plus. It's basically a computer posing as a console.Well I guess that's not much different from Sony and Microsifts latest offerings...hmm.
But anyway, I think one thing I find baffling is that Atari SA did not include a DVD drive. If you run windows or Linux there is much software on discs, especially if you configure things to run older software. Some software require disc for install, there are still games released on DVD for PC (though more for just the license and 90% of the time the games barely on the disc), and of course DVD playback for movies, and storage for storing files. Maybe also disc burning.
As it is, it seems lacking without the Disc slot. It also would have helped Atari reach more retailers having new fp or third party software in boxes. Making it a more serious competitor to the general consumer.
While pricy for questionable reasons, it's cheaper than the new consoles and has decent specs. It's the one thing they are missing to really sell the "game console" vibe to the general consumer instead of a "dedicated device" vibe, or the "Pi+" reception it's getting now.
It's still not to late to make another version with one but Atari would likely price the device higher than the current VCS, even though from breakdowns I've seen, the current VCS price is already inflated.
And yes I know the new consoles have 4K BR drives, but PC never really went in that direction and those drives are expensive, unlike cheap DVD drives. It's not really necessary.
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12 hours ago, KG7PFS said:
You should see Koronis Rift and Rescue on Fractalus on the Tandy Color Computer 3. The Commodore and Atari versions are good, but the CC3 version is much better. I also suggest that you not look at the Apple II versions of those games.
Curious, what ways is the TCC3 version better?
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On 10/2/2021 at 8:00 AM, agradeneu said:
Battlezone
A non polygon game more technically demanding than a polygon game with pse-scaling sprites?
On 10/2/2021 at 8:04 AM, agradeneu said:Thanks for the clearup! ?
You both use emojis but have not listed anything to show otherwise. Classic youtuber comment tier behavior when you have no argument.
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58 minutes ago, agradeneu said:
I read quite the contrary. E.T. - was it released before the crash or afterwards?
And after the crash, Atari never again regained their position as a leading force and innovator in video games for home consoles. Can you tell me why?
Because Atari Corp didn't have the money to back Atari like warner and unrelated actions of warner Atari pissed of retailers and the Atari brand still had an uphill battle in 1985.
Then in 1985-87 Atari had rebounded and was the leading force of video games on the new generation of computers.
On console end there was a new competitor out of nowhere that had $$$ from overseas who worked with a distribution company to pressure retailers and hugged the shelf space while stuffing the shelves with stick and having exclusivity deals from eastern developers and scared most western devs away from consoles. Leaving little support.
Even then Atari corp sold out and ended up 2nd without the cash flow or chest if the other two, and if you combine their 3 active consoles before 88 one could argue they were number one until then.
Oh wait, you wanted it to just be an influx of bad games, my bad.
Also lol ET. how is one title (that still sold decent) a influx of "games"? Most of the writers to news papers and journalists complaints about the quantity:quality issue were after the crash, because they were the result of the crash not the cause.
Did you forget Atari was misleading to investors and the press until right before the crash happened? Then sometime after Atari reported likely hood of (much) lower than expected sales and crashed almost all the video game stock but Coleco and maybe a couple others?
The IGN version of things has always been wrong.
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22 hours ago, agradeneu said:
Lol...the RTS genre has evolved a lot since Dune 2, but nevermind.
One of the main reasons for the crash of 1984 was the influx of bad quality games and cheap clones/rehashes of the same ideas (Pacman).
No, the crash CAUSED the influx of bad (and some decent) games on shelves, usually at rapidly shrinking prices, not the games themselves.
The reason why retailers were freaking out and deciding to effectively damage themselves and the industry is they took out too many orders from too many companies, and the crash bankrupted those companies, so there was no one around for buybacks. Retailers believed they had no choice but to crash the prices and throw out video game stock at bargain value because they gave up since they had one big set back with gaming. The price wars didn't help either coming from the computer industry.
All of which happened also due to retailers, retailers basically caused the crash and made it worse.
Even then there weren't that many clones of Pacman as people think there were, at least not on the big 3 consoles everyone knew about. Same with others big games, if anything space shooters was were most of the rehashing went.
I mean even the heavily invested gamers barely knew what KC munchkin was and O2 was mail order in many places in the US by then.
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12 hours ago, mr_me said:
but you're saying its 1.3M? Based on what?
I didn't say this at all.
15 hours ago, mr_me said:then they were still behind the Colecovision which was at 1.4M in mid 1983.
It's likely looking at Coleco sales data here and elsewhere that 1.4 millon was probably shipments. This would explain why only 600k would sell from mid 83 to fall 84 with a two million article for CV. A bunch of that stock was likely in preperation for the adam, and you have already said yourself that CV was harder to find in late 83. Granted it was probably worse in Canada then the US.
But in either case this is from March 83 latimes found on my drive:
So it definitely seems like to me the 5200 was ahead for a bit. At worst dead even, but as I said above that's unlikely. By the time the CV sold or shipped the 1.4 million, Atari was already winding things down, and the negotiations for the GCC deal started a few months after that.
Heck, the negotiating could have been even earlier for all we know. It's just clear Atari was ready to replace the thing.
But as I said, I believe they could have done well keeping the machine alive but Warner will Warner.
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Just played Driv3r on GBA.
It's a pretty ambitious attempt at an open world on the device. It's no Ngage but pretty impressive.
It at least shows Rockstar didn't need to result to overhead gameplay on GBA, although I like GTA1.
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4 minutes ago, mr_me said:
If it's Q3 rather than Q2 than they were even further behind Colecovision sales.
I didn't say this at all.
4 minutes ago, mr_me said:IDefinitely no evidence that it outsold Colecovision in 1982.
1983.
5 minutes ago, mr_me said:I haven't seen any evidence of no 5200s being available for Christmas 1983. My experience with 1983 was that videogames disappeared from a lot of stores, not just any one system. They all got harder to find.
Didn't say no 5200's, you're implying low sales and stock didn't make sense for the rest of 1983 after the 5200 hit 1 million earlier in the year. Yet are ignoring there was basically no presence of the 5200 in 84 in general. The wind down happened in the second half of 83 along with GCC negotiations for the 5200s replacement.
I'm not sure how much more you think Atari would have sold. CV was ahead during the wind down and the press was eating them up, I doubt there was more than 300k 5200s sold, IF that, between post selling 1 million in early 83 and the discontinuation in April 84. So it makes perfect sense that 5200 had the lead and basically gave it to CV because Atari bit off their own arm.
You can also see this with the CV sales you posted, 1.4 million q2,1983, I assume closing of the quarter, so June? To reach two million by late 84 from that point would require sales of 600k+ units, and that includes a bunch of months AFTER the 5200 was discontinued.
So how much did the 5200 from early 83 until mid 84 cancellation when CV was the major seller? Remember no increase in sales was big enough to stop reports from reusing the 1 million sold, so it had to be at best 300k or less.
There's no way Atari sold anything more than table scraps (comparatively) after they hit 1 million. They reached that number first and then died off.
But even in the other case, it still would have been close either way, so no matter which scenario you believe Atari still was competitive and gave the win to CV for free.
I believe they would have been in a better position just supporting and keeping the console alive. I think killing the 5200 was a mistake since it had good performance despite losing money, which eventually would have reversed.
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43 minutes ago, mr_me said:
The 5200 has a huge colour palette, larger than the NES, compared to fifteen colours on Colecovision. The 5200 has hardware scrolling and can put eight sprites on a line without flicker. The only thing Colecovision had was a higher resolution which made screenshots look good. There's certainly a technical argument for the 5200 over colecovision. The Commodore64 would be much closer to the NES than either of these two.
The issue as I said, is execution.
There's generally a more common point of comparison between a CV and a base famicom than a 5200 and a base famicom due to this. Even though on paper the 5200 should be obviously closer.
The C64 has nothing to do with the subject
4 hours ago, Keatah said:I think there's more tricks to be found in Atari's 8-bit stuff. Back then and now.
There are, but reading on here apparently not all of those apply to the 5200.
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25 minutes ago, mr_me said:
If the 5200 was at 1M by mid 1983 then they were still behind the Colecovision which was at 1.4M in mid 1983. It's hard to believe that Atari sold no 5200 consoles after that, nothing for Christmas. It was listed in the Sears, Mongomery Wards, and JC Penney, 1983 Christmas books.
I consider q2 and q3 mid year like some businesses do, not literally June ify course.
But in any case it's not hard to believe at all. I have no idea why you think the 5200 was widespread after the first few months of the year, or 4. It was being winded down by Atari and THEN discontinued.
Remember they were losing money on every product they put out at the time (Atari) and hesitated to drop the price of the 5200 much during the price wars, they were barely producing new consoles because they were slowly cutting the production.
Also remember the 7800 was on the board in 83, the rumors and finishing negotiations were in early 84, and the release was a few months after that.
If they had as much out there as you implied surely they would have had a surge of stock in the holidays of 83 plus stock from before, so why was there little presence in 1984? It doesn't make sense.
That means EITHER, that many 5200s were sitting on shelves and no one was buying them, OR there weren't many 5200's in the first place. There's no other way to cut it.
It's clear by the lack of stock and slow sales pace late 83 onward it wasn't the former. Atari had been working with GCC on negotiations at that point, before it was discontinued. They aren't pushing big shipments, and as mentioned before there was already frustration with the game releases.
Look at this grilling example when the 7800 was announced:
These were common sentiments. The 5200 stuff was already getting hard to find along with software and this discontinuation happens just as it seems things were looking more promising to owners. It was already lacking a stable flow of new exciting games, any chance of that dried up, although that dry up unknown to the consumer happened a bit over half a year earlier.
So yes, it makes complete sense the 5200 production being cut in 83 with no high shipment by the holidays and barely having presence in all of 84, would indicate Atari barely sold many more consoles after they hit 1 million. With CV selling 3x as much in the same time frame until discontinuation.
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On 9/27/2021 at 3:59 PM, electricmastro said:
Serious Sam Advance
Didn't know they did this, but just the though of a SS game on GBA doesn't sound like it could turn out well.
20 hours ago, Tanooki said:While faux rare annoyingly so, so priced accordingly, look up Colin McRae racing. Solid game, solidly annoying price unless something changed.
Speaking if racing CNK on GBA is pretty dang good, possibly better than the console version, and looking around online that seems to be a common opinion.
A SP racing adventure in the GBA sounds ambitious but they pulled it off. Good number of tracks too, and the boss battles aren't terrible.
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35 minutes ago, NoBloodyXLOrE said:
Yeah the ColecoVision definitely had some good ports like Galaxian and Donkey Kong, it's probably the closest to the 5200 in terms of graphical prowess.
The implication here is the CV is weaker than the 5200.
CV and a basic Famicom are within the realm of each other outside multi color sprites, so if the 5200 was stronger it would make it virtually a basic famicom and be more comparable than the CV.
But looking at both consoles best games (graphically) and shared games with NES the CV seems to be closer to a base famicom than the 5200.
Granted, the 7800, stronger than the Famicom in several areas, especially the base, showed differing strengths can lead to different goals based on the machine (free sprites vs. tiles etc )
But the 5200 and CV seem to be aiming for similar objectives so if the 5200 was stronger surely it would be closer to a base famicom than the CV in execution?
Both machines got some big software to show off capabilities despite the up-ports and nothing on the 5200 outside one game seems to shows it's closer to the famicom than the CV.
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9 hours ago, mr_me said:
We don't know how many Colecovisions sold in 1984,
Coleco sold over two million by late 84.
9 hours ago, mr_me said:For the 5200 to reach 1M before Colecovision they would have to had done it early 1983
Mid, but yes this is exactly what happened and this has been discussed here before iirc.
But the 5200 was being winded down in 83 and was heading toward discontinuation outside left over stock at select retailers around the start of 1984. Some months in from then the 7809 rumors started and shortly after that, they were confirmed.
So you can barely bring up 5200 sales in 1984 because there was barely any. There was already few 5200s by Q4 1983, for many the console was already unofficially discontinued in many places by then. Just VCS and CVs were plentiful comparatively.
People were writing questions to papers asking why they couldn't find 5200 stuff late 83 and early 84. When the 5200 discontinuation was announced some articles grilled them for it because they already were upset at lack of releases and distribution before the 7800 was confirmed.
Atari sold around a million 5200's at around the same time they were starting to kill it. Giving CV the ball until early summer or so 1985 (and the CV was still marginally profitable even in 85 according to Coleco.,)
If warner just rode the console they would have been in a good position. But Warner was of course mismanaged and disconnected from the consumer market all the way until the end.
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1 minute ago, agradeneu said:
I would say a breakdown is meaningsless numberwang if it just went for the smallest common denominator and ignores all complexity and nuances of each genre.
Platformers are samey, but only on a VERY VERY superficial level: Metroid, Mario, Mega Man and Castlevania can be all described as platform games, but they are quite different and invented their own unique gameplay mechanics and style.
But this would apply to nearly every major or B level console and since several have unique games you end up with exclusive sub genres, then you will also have games that fall in the middle of two descriptions having elements of two subgenres or more.
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5 hours ago, JagChris said:
What?
I'm talking about actual activity not YT views.
Those were two separate paragraphs I don't know why you combined them.
I said in the first paragraph literally I used a homebrew game list and the Jag is barely still ahead(of the two consoles you mentioned). The second was explaining why what you said will eventually (soon) be correct.
There's no longer anything to bring attention to the Jaguar anymore.
As much as people for years were upset at multiple social media and video sites spreading misinfo, it did prolong attention to the console, and created interest in finding the non-existant secret sauce on the side as well.
Thus resulting in some really nice 3D tech demos for the Jag, but sadly I don't think we will actually see a full original 3D game using any of those techniques.
There were projects but no one's heard from those or they were canned and after 20 years how many people are left who want to make a full time consuming 3D game on the Jaguar?
The reason why that's important is if someone did put out an original 3D game showing the Jag had a bit more juice than previously though, it could cause another wave of interest for the console, but I just don't see that happening, so in another 1-2 years I expect the Jaguar scene to nearly be dead outside current projects.
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9 hours ago, DavidD said:
Sorry -- I wasn't aiming that at you, but more generally mentioning it in the thread as several people seemed interested in it. That was clumsy framing on my part.
At this point, I'm generally curious as to the breakdown as far as genre diversity -- I'm only about 50% through the classification of the NES library, and the real problem is the lack of truly "standardized" genre classification systems for video games. I've been creating one as I go, using major genre breakdowns and subgenres as needed when I felt that a significant number of the subgenre games existed. I've got about 50 unique subgenres now, and that seems to cover almost everything... although there are a few weird games I'm struggling to properly classify.
Bomberman, for example...
So I take it you are putting Mega Man, SMB, Kirby, and Contra in different subgenres as you implied last time?
But that would create a ton of problems since for every genre like platformers or shooters you are creating a 5-10 subjective sub genres which doesn't make sense for a break down.
But ok.
28 minutes ago, leech said:The reason there wasn't any standardized genre back then was because people didn't tend to copy each other's ideas as much. Almost everyone plays it safe these days by making games that fit into an easily labeled genre of game so they can sell to the people who like such genre of games.
Like I generally don't buy RTS games, because, quite frankly, they rarely have anything new from when Dune 2 was released.
Yes, the NES is really when things started to become more consolidated as platformer, jumping, ladder games, or in some cases, climbers or climbing games could all have different or similar games to each other. Also 7800 as game releases were labeled by genre in some press, but that was to a lesser extent.
Most (but not all) of those ended up becoming just platformers or ladder games, with the more unique ones being "arcade" games or rather classic style arcade, those didn't get a specified lable.
But in modern times while things did get safer for years, recently we are starting to see widespread labels once again. Action games can be anything now, half the RPGs aren't rpgs, open world game can apply to nearly anything, Battle Royale and Moba are meaningless new terms. There are like 12 different shooters just on FPS alone, fighting games (outside Smash and rip offs) is probably the most consistent genre these days, that sells anyway.
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2 hours ago, madman said:
Jeff
Strange off topic jab involving something that wasn't mentioned but ok.
5 hours ago, JagChris said:I don't know if that's true anymore. Might have been true 3 years ago but the 32X and Saturn homebrew scenes are starting to heat up quite a bit.
Someone recently posted home brew counts, but just going off the dates of release of the recent ones, it still seems Jag is a bit ahead.
But eventually yeah. There's no catalyst for Jag these days and you can't get 500k views on youtube attacking it anymore. So the attention will dry up.
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4 hours ago, NoBloodyXLOrE said:
FMV games may have been huge, but they were still just a fleeting fad, and for a reason - they were terrible. Besides, even if they went for the cheapest LD player they could muster, it still probably would've been more expensive than the 5200 itself; it just wouldn't be a mass market item that would have "people waiting in lines".
It would probably cost the same. But the novelty would have been attractive in the 80's having those games at home, and may lead to more software.
As for FMV, 10-15 years is a bit long for a fad, I know it feels like it was a shorter flash in the pan, especially with add-ons like Sega CD and games like Mad Dogg being common but there were several styles of FMV for a very long time being produced. They didn't really die off until 97.
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On 9/27/2021 at 2:43 PM, zzip said:
Dosbox is an emulator like any other. To me it's the same as me running Stella for 2600 games, Vice for C64 programs, etc. It does make the PC the ultimate retrogaming device since it can emulate almost everything, but it doesn't have the 100% native compatibility all the way back to 1981 like some people like the claim. The architecture and OSes have changed too much
Try running games from Win 2000 downward on a win20 pc. Pain in the azz.
Don't even try pre 95 and post dos. I have all these FMV adventure games from decades ago I can barely play.
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Which post-2600 Atari console do you like best?
in Atari General
Posted · Edited by Leeroy ST
So you have nothing.
See the problem is F18 proves it's more capable 3D, which is why it was mentioned, but you're trying to twist things to make it seem like it doesn't. That was always the point from the start despite you acting obtuse/disingenuous.
But you don't have a game that showcases otherwise despite it being obvious to you. It's also clear at this point you never will.
Remember you're informed, but can't find the software to support you are informed.
I mean you brought up SCR again yet it's not as demanding as F18.
So I'll take this as a concession. Since you don't have the moral compass to admit you have nothing.
Now since you lost that discussion, even though you won't admit it, we could use the 2D flight simulators on the 7800 to prove it can do better than XEGS and friends at pseudo-3D too.
But I guess you won't have a game to counter those either?
Maybe the problem is you think you're informed.