Foebane

Actually, you're right, I was lucky to just find the right level of randomness I wanted. You see, I wrote a fractal landscape generator, and what use is that if you can't repeat certain random patterns - that's why I wrote the routine. When I was testing my routine I compared it with the standard random number generator by filling the screen with random-coloured pixels, to see if any regular patterns emerged. By the time I finalised my routine, my random pattern was indistinguishable from the standard, even if it did have a different "style" of randomness to it. I never thought of the test for randomness you mentioned in your post. I think I still have the original code somewhere. If I find it I will post it here, but it's been a long while, I'm not sure where it is.

I discovered to my dismay that on the Amiga's AMOS programming language, the random numbers generated there were non-repeatable, as the seed was derived from the timer. So I created my own random number generator. It was simple, really. I set up a variable for the seed, and I then used a combination of bit rotation and flipping of fixed bit positions on that variable. Each time, a random number came up. And I figured out that's how most computers generate random numbers - simple bit manipulation. The A8 method sounds very unusual here...

You could use PMG for the device and the hand, using those colours, etc. Then use the top range of the interrupts for the background, changing to the rabbit colours for the middle, and then the white suit thing at the bottom. Am I on the right track?

Restrictions? WHAT restrictions!? ROFLMAO! J/K Well, yes, there are restrictions, but I'd like to know how the artist responsible for this piece did it: (Apologies, but the Simpsons examples in the gallery on that website are fairly rude, this was the least offensive) Now, I know this is high-res, and that it is usually monochrome, but that by judicious use of sprites and copper-style effects you can add colour, but I've never seen such fine examples of the technique. I suppose this example uses sprites that fit the various coloured outlines of the picture, and that the colours of some sprites change half-way down the screen, but what about the resolution? I'm surprised it's so... high. Is there sprite multiplexing in use here? If that program on the frontpage of the website generated all of those pictures, then I have a newfound admiration for what standard A8 graphics are capable of. EDIT: Oh, I see now, the background and the 'yellow' skin are the original colours, right?

Sometimes I wonder how the C64 demos never need more than 64K, and yet have plenty of room to precalculate and store stuff for animations, yet the A8 seems to do a lot of its stuff realtime and requires more memory than usual in some cases. Or does the C64 spool a lot of its demo stuff off the floppy disk?

What I'm curious is how the C64's colour palette was "chosen". Was it similar to the A8's palette, which is based on HSV values (I think) or was it someone's personal choice? Any docs on this?

Can you give an example of what you mean ? 898157[/snapback] Like the effects in this collection of pics from Reditus on the A8: I mean things like the effects in blue, like the real-time lit top-left effect, or the texture mapped and lit cube bottom-left, or the raytracing effects on the face on the cube at bottom middle. I've seen similar effects on the C64 and PC, but not on Amiga. That's what I mean. EDIT: In response to TMR's last paragraph: Oh I see now.

Thanks for the advice, TMR, but I figured it out in the end. I just forgot to post. The C64 demos are all impressive, and have higher resolution than the Atari ones, mostly. The only thing that lets C64 demos down IMHO is the simple 16-colour palette, although all colours can be used at any time, say to have all 16 on screen - the downside is the lack of shades, giving a "distinctive but samey" look to the colour schemes. Apart from that, though, I'm impressed at some factors: 1. One demo I saw had high-res text overlaid directly over a low-res background. Either the C64 can mix modes like the Amiga (dual playfield) or the text was made up of sprites, which I've heard are high-res on the C64. Which is true? 2. A demo called Tsunami had amazing graphics, and even had high-res multicolour images moving around! Is that a result of up to four colours in every high-res 8x8 block? If so, that's impressive! It also surprises me that the C64 is capable, like the A8, of PC demo-like effects (like texture-mapped lighted cubes, rotating bitmap tunnels, etc), except of course on a much lower scale. And yet, I've hardly seen those kinds of effects on Amiga demos. I suppose it's down to the difference between bitmaps (C64, A8) and bitplanes (Amiga). I'm not really too surprised though about the improvements in hardware - I mean, the A8 came out in 1979 and the C64 a few years later, so there was bound to be progress, wasn't there?

Oh, I see - that expains the protractor!

So you can use a PC HD with the humble A8? COOL!

As of right now I am actually 32, FYI. For your information, Speccy owners, my very first computer was a ZX81. My parents were proud I was able to concoct a "wriggling spider" animation in next to no time. Come on, in the 1980s, how many "my computer's better than yours" arguments were floating around between kids? At the time, I never got into that as I felt excluded from those main competitors in the market (having an A8) and I didn't have enough information on the competitor's specs to be able to form my own opinion. BUT, I finally got into that childish habit when I was 16+. How? I got an ST in 1989, but I then decided on the Amiga. About a year later, I meet someone who later becomes my best friend, except for the fact he goes on about my "crappy Amiga" all the time, when he has... an ST! I eventually go round to his house, where I discover his vast collection of Speccy tapes (his previous machine). All this is immaterial as by this time we have both gotten PCs, and this pointless arguing goes out the window. But, years later, I finally get full information about the Speccy's... specs, and with emulation examples, I finally decide it's not a machine I would want. I guess I'd been spoiled by superior, if not cheaper, hardware. It's not my fault, it's what my parents got me. BTW, my parents got me the A8 as they didn't want me playing games all the time. I was 11 at the time. And so everything leads up to that beknighted thread I started on the WoS board that Malc74 pointed to. I suppose my outburst was a last vestige of my wanting to be part of that "my computer's better than yours" moronic crowd... ...which I feel ashamed for and regret, having read all the posts until now.

You mean, "don't diss something when you're surrounded by the something's fans"? It was only that one time, and that was because of a drunken outburst one night when I got frustrated about things in general. I have since tried to make up, but I not so much touched a nerve as pinched it, apparently. Check my other posts on the WoS boards if you don't believe me.

That machine only stood out in my mind because of the built-in joystick and the colourful keyboard. I honestly don't know anything else about it. Maybe it's time I found out.

Maybe I should've been clearer. I know how to run the demos, they just seem to freeze on me either in the beginning or half-way through. Should I add more memory or what?

Can anyone help me to run these C64 demos on VICE? I seem to keep having problems, but I'm not familiar with C64 architecture to know what's wrong. Also, does it really take that long to load from disk using LOAD "*",8,1?

Hear, hear! I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest with the Spectrum discussion, though. I wish I'd never started that thread now, I never expected such a backlash!

I don't mean to create hostilities, that's the last thing I want. I just felt persecuted by Malc74's post, just because at one time on the World of Spectrum boards I made a (admittedly stupid thing to do) drunken post about my true opinions of the Speccy, when the rest of the time I was happily discussing retro stuff with them. I managed to offend almost all of them all with that one post, and I have deeply regretted that ever since. Then Malc74 sees my (to his eyes) "anti"-Speccy thread, which is just part of a trend I'm CONTINUING, not starting on this board with platform comparison threads, and he jumps down my throat. I was actually trying to find out what Atari users thought of the Spectrum, that's all. I didn't even have a go at the USERS of the machine, just the hardware itself. They just massively overreacted, as if I had walked into a mosque with boots on or something, or said bad things about Mohammed. This just proves to me how protective Speccy users are of their platform. But then, some people are funny about their favourite things.

I'm not stirring anything. Stay out of this Osbo, you have no idea what happened between me and him, so don't you get involved.

I started this thread because twh/f2 started a thread comparing the Atari 8-Bits to the C64, and I felt the Speccy deserved one. And how dare you call my opinions "crap" - I could say the same about yours! Besides, I was quite friendly to all of you on the WoS Forums, even if I did let slip my true feelings, once or twice. You call that "crap", do you? I think you're overreacting, BTW. Erm, as for comparing the two - I notice this is the first time you've posted here. Whereas I was in the minority on the WoS Forums concerning my opinion, I think in turn you'll find you're in the minority here on the Atari 8-Bit board. Curious last sentence - and what have YOU done about global poverty recently?

By this you mean that the C64 people first came up with the ideas for their demos that the A8 variations and other platforms that came later improved upon? The same could be said of any person programming on any platform. Unless you have positive proof that a particular party created a new design or effect first, there's no way to know. I mean, the first time I saw effects like the ones in Reditus was on an Amiga AGA demo, but then later on I got a PC and found that the PC had achieved those effects earlier, but for all I know the C64 could've done it first! Yes, I fully believe that the C64 was the birthplace of the Demo Scene, but of course, others followed, and later the Amiga dominated, and then the PC took over. That doesn't stop all other platforms from trying to see if they can achieve the same effects, though. Mind you, that's the problem, the same effects. When I got my Amiga, I became far more interested in programming my own games and watching Demos as opposed to playing Amiga Games, which always seemed to consist of cutesy themes, the same old same old. What I detest about the Demo Scene is the Old Skool stuff, when every, and I mean, EVERY demo consisted of variations of sinus text scrollers, copper bars, bouncing bobs, panning starfields and simple modded music. Anyone remember those? Why did I hate those? Because they were UNORIGINAL, it was just Demo groups trying to outdo each other in how many bobs they could get in one frame, etc. Thank God common sense came later when they tried new things, and Innovation & Originality, as well as (not just) Pushing the Envelope has been the backbone of the Demo Scene ever since. Just my thoughts.

It's a pity that Atari badly marketed the XL series then, especially the XE series that came later! All Atari cared about in their product range post-1985 was the ST - they neglected and then abandoned the A8 totally, like a beloved dog tossed out into the street. It was only loyal fanbase support that kept it alive, especially in Europe - so the beloved dog was adopted by an animal shelter. Happy ending. Pity Commodore were doing the same thing (bad marketing) to the Amiga almost a decade later.

(sigh) I know. There was also Rare for the consoles, who started off as Ultimate(?) for the Speccy. I didn't mean to snap, it's just I got so mad at people saying those other machines are better when they're just more popular.

What gives the C64 people the monopoly on creative software development?! The same could be said of anyone who develops on their respective platform, be it C64, A8, Spectrum, BBC, CPC, Oric, etc. To be frank, I'm starting to resent this thread. THIS IS MEANT TO BE AN ATARI FORUM, NOT A C64 ONE!!

What about the ZX Spectrum and the BBC Micro? Both those machines use 3-bit RGB (1 bit for each electron gun (on or off), producing red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, yellow, black and white) and I bet they don't need a PAL decoder either. BTW, I can't stand these two for graphics, as they only have the most basic colours, whereas the CPC, C64 and A8 give you more choices. And with the ST and Amiga, well, the sky's the limit!

It's OK, I figured it out. All I was missing was checking the H: patch box! D'oh!