8th lutz
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Posts posted by 8th lutz
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I would go back and tell Atari what not to do with Pac-man, ET and the 5200
I doubt they would listen though
I don't the three things would have helped Atari from a money standpoint in 1984 and a good portion of 1983. While the sale of ET would be up, I don't think it would help the later part of 1983. The fact is the Crash was going to happening in 1983/1984 anyway. The only difference would be the amount inventory of Pac-man and ET left.
Atari lost a lawsuit to Activision and that meant anyone can develop and publish games for the 2600. That is a part of the crash happening right there. While Activision did good games, some companies did 2600 games just for making money and caused having too many 2600 games on the market. Commodore was doing commercials that encouraged people to buy computers instead of video games. Video games was a rival to computers than. The other fact is the amount of game consoles on the market in 1983.
The 5200 was going to have problems against the Colecovision in price even if the controllers, launch titles were better. The other catch is the crash was going affect the 5200 anyway for later 1983 anyway.
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Here are my underrated Systems:
1.) Tg-16. A good game library in the United States despite the small game library. I think if the United States got half of the pc engines game library, I don't the system would be overlooked as much.
2.) Sega Master System. It has nice games in the game library in the United States game library in an era that Nintendo had a monopoly on third party developers and publishers. I don't think the system would be considered as underrated if the US game library had the games Europe had.
3.) Sega Saturn. awesome system. It has a good North American game library that get overlooked due to the Japanese game Library.
4.) Atari 7800. This system is underrated based on what the system can do. It is great at arcade ports. If the National release was in 1984, I think more potential of the system would have have been shown based on the homebrew game library proved. Jack Tramiel not having the coin up division of Atari hurt the system as well besides the 3rd party monopoly.
Not a lot of people that aren't board members on this site have no idea what the 7800 is capable of based based on the homebrew game library the Atari 7800 has. If the 7800 back in the day had the homebrew authors as programmers, there would have a lot more would have been out of the system. What the homebrew 7800 games does is giving a peak on what the 7800 can do and the homebrew games actually improve the game quality of the game library.
Beantly Bear: Crystal Quest outside of sound actually isn't an Atari 7800 expansion module game despite how good the game looks. Bob himself even said the game can be played on a 7800 without an expansion module with the only difference being no sound.
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I say console. Atari marketed it as a game console and I also go by what was planned for the 7800 under Atari Inc.
The Atari 7800 was supposed get a keyboard and computer software and that meant it was similar to the XEGS. Here is my proof: http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/7800/7800keyboard.html
Atari Inc. looked at the 7800 as a game console back in 1983/1984 and that meant the XEGS should be looked as a game console also.
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So Atari had first crack at the NES, AND the Genesis? And turned it down?
You ever make a really bad decision and then die to regret it? Heh
The Genesis decision Atari Corp did also caused Atari Corp. to lose their President of the video game division, Michael Katz to Sega. Atari Corp.'s video game division didn't recover from that.
Atari did turn both down, but you were not completely correct. Retro Rogue has mentioned in the past and in this thread that Atari Inc. and Atari corp. weren't the same company. The Atari that turned down the Genesis was not the same Atari that Turned down the Nes based on the history of Atari based on the fact Atari Corp. actually started out as Tramel Technology LTD. that was found found by Jack Tramiel. When Jack acquired Atari, Tramel Technology LTD.was renamed Atari corp.
Tramel Technology LTD. had no dealings with the Nes since it was completed different company. Jack got a rid of all the people of Atari Inc. that he acquired basically he got the computer and the home Video Game divisions. Tramiel got the Inventory of Atari Inc.'s home divisions and wanted to use the Atari name since he acquired 2/3rd of Atari Inc.
All this means the Atari of 1988 had no dealing of Nintendo in 1983 since it was two entirely different companies despite using the name Atari.
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The basic underlying problem, as I see it, is that Warner management was woefully inept. And it wasn't just Atari that was suffering, either. The entire umbrella was faring poorly. Although we can look back with distain at some of Atari Corp's decisions, I don't think that there would have been an Atari at all anymore if Warner had held on. Their only alternative (short of sacking a whole bunch of people) would be to close up shop for good.
Some positive things happened during the years of Atari Corp. Atari returned to profitability, amazingly.
My biggest question is this: when did things start to go south for Atari Corp?
It depends. Financial standpoints says a different year than making bad choices did for Atari Corp.
I am guessing things started to turn south for Atari Corp in the late 1980's from a financial standpoint. I am saying 1989 to 1991 time period.
Jack stepped away for Atari Corp in the late 1980's when his son Sam took over. Sam mad things a financial mess for Atari Corp.The same time frame the Atari St sales were slipping in Europe. The 7800 sales started to slip in 1989 for North America based what info Curt Vendel reported years ago. Atari 2600 was slipping in 1989 also for North America.
I think it was in 1988 that Sega approached Atari Corp with releasing the Sega Genesis for North America, but Jack also wanted the Europe rights to the system also. Sega walked away from that deal as a result. That outcome seemed worse than Atari Corp releasing the XEGS in 1987. The XEGS didn't have the success as the 2600 and the 7800 did in North America for Atari Corp and Atari Corp Discontinued it in 1989. The thing is didn't hurt the future of company.
Jack hurt Atari Corp long term with wanting more than the North America rights of the Sega Genesis. I am bringing that up because of how successful the Sega Genesis was in North America.
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Still, by 1984, going into 1985, these were aging IP's. Asteroids was ancient, and DK came out in 1981. NES would have so many new and innovative titles soon, so anything Warner could offer would have merely been a temporary stop-gap at best.
There is a problem. Atari Inc. didn't have DK planed for the 7800. DK was planned by Atari Corp. In 1984, Coleco still had the rights of the DK series and was planning have Donkey Kong III on the Colecovision.
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From a games perspective, I'm going to say Intellivision. People are saying Atari for the sheer number of games, but I think they're forgetting that all those games can also be run on an Intellivision through the System Changer. Intellivision library + Atari VCS library = slam dunk in my book.
I didn't forgot about the system charger. I actually have an Intellivision 2 with a system charger, and an intellivoice module. I had since the 1980's. I remembered myself wanting an intellivision II for Christmas in 1983 as a kid for reasons I don't know outside of seeing it in a Christmas Catalog matter of fact.
My problem with the intellivision 2 the controllers. Intellivision does have a good game library based on what I played.
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What you are trying to say is platforms with hardware-scrolling support, most appeared starting in 1985 (NES, SMS)
All platforms could do smooth scrolling in some way or other, just that in some it took a little more effort and ingenuity.
The Nes was released in 1983 in Japan as the Famicom.
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MSX didn't have the Hardware for horizonal Scrolling from what I gathered. It seemed like programmers did tricks se some tricks to make possible what seemed impossible.
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The Atari 2600. The Atari 2600 had the best and biggest 2nd generation Libarary.
When I think of the 2nd generation, I think of Atari 2600, Intellivision, Channel F, Odyssey 2,Astrocade, and RCA Studio II as 2nd generation game consoles.
To me, Game Consoles released in 1977 shouldn't in the same game generation as the consoles that came out in 1982.
I consider the Atari 5200, vectrex, Arcadia 2000 and Colecovision 3rd generation systems. I consider the 7800, SMS, and the Nes 4th generation.
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I believe pokey chips would of been added to the games.
I believe they would of competed better with nintendo.
I believe more releases would of came out for the 7800.
if Jack Tremiel wouldn't have dropped the ball on video games all together(focusing on home computers instead) that the 2nd and 3rd party game makers wouldn't have only made games for nintendo....................
But then agin, maybe I'm wrong........it could of went the other way around.........maybe atari would of completly have been dead by 1985 hence no 7800, no lynx, no jaguar...................who knows.
Pokey chip already was planned for Rescue on Fractalus! when Atari Inc. was in charge of Atari. The fact is pokey sound was going to be used for 7800 games, but GCC was doing a cheaper and better sound chip called Gumby for the Atari 7800. The Gumby sound was in research and Development in 1984.
You can't say Jack drop the ball on Video games in 1984 because Jack needed to buy the 7800 from GCC. That meant Jack can't attract 3d party developers in 1984 or early 1985 as a result. The Atari 2600 was the only other option, but the problem is trying to attract 3rd party to that system. In 1984 and 1985, the Atari 2600 was very long in the teeth in technology.
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Atari Inc. didn't have the money to pay GCC for the development of the 7800 or its launch games (either that, or they just chose not to pay). Either way, GCC holds onto the 7800 and its games, so the point is moot. Atari Inc. couldn't have released it in 1984 anyway.
But supposing they could have, and did, I see a couple of problems:
1.) Consumer confidence in the 5200 is shaken even further. "You just put this thing out two years ago and you're ditching it already?"
1b.) Resources that could been used to improve the 5200 (better controllers, new games, cost-reduced hardware, etc) are siphoned to the 7800.
2.) The games were nothing nothing new, even in 1984. "I just bought these same games for my 800XL and 2600!"
3.) NES would have crushed it within a year or two anyway.
4.) It might have done reasonably well in the brief period before the NES came along, but the 7800 still would not have generated enough revenue to get Atari Inc. out of the deep, deep shit it was in.
I'd even argue that the 7800 kind of screwed Atari (both Inc. and Corp.), in hindsight. For one thing, it ensured that the 5200 -which was supposed to be Atari's present flagship console- would never be anything more than a redheaded stepchild, and the resources and money spent on the 7800 left the company unable to develop a console that could actually compete with the NES (or even SMS) on an equal level when the time came. And Jack/Atari Corp. was saddled with it and forced to pay GCC (out of Jack's own pocket) for the now-obsolete system when what they really needed all along was to leapfrog the NES entirely and go with something like a consolized 520ST, which they probably couldn't have afforded to develop at the time. On the other hand, they couldn't afford to sit on all that old stock, either. Regardless, Atari Corp. didn't have an answer to Super Mario Bros., so perhaps it wouldn't have mattered what hardware they had in stores anyway.
(The "development" and release of the XEGS is kind of a head-scratcher when they could have done an "STGS" instead. Maybe they just couldn't get a satisfactory product at a competitive price point? Although in the end, it's just as well; there never was an overwhelming amount of ST games stateside anyway, and the way Nintendo locked up third-party console developers would probably have meant a similar -if not more severe- fate for the "STGS.")
Or, Atari Inc. could have jumped on Nintendo's proposal back in 1983 to launch the Famicom in the US as an Atari product, and all would be hunky dory.
Woulda-Coulda-Shoulda is fun, isn't it?
I don't know if calling the Atari 5200 a flagship to begin with for Atari. It boils to the fact GCC started to work on the 7800 in late 1982 or early 1983. That meant the 5200 was doomed almost from the time it released like the 32x was doomed from the beginning for Sega. Atari Inc. screwing up the 5200 launch didn't help matters that included Super Breakout instead of having Tempest developed as a 1982 Luanch title.
Atari 5200 was only developed because the programmers didn't like the Atari 3200. The 2600 was going to 5 years in 1982 and Atari couldn't wait another 2 year to find a true successor to the 2600.
The 7800 was going to be released in 1984 based on the fact it was test marketed in California in June 1984 despite GCC stil having the rights of the 7800.
I agree the XEGS was a head scratcher.
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The Atari 2600 for 1984 was going to have more games released in 1984 if Warner kept the company through 1984. Garfield, Elevator action, Jr-Pacman (released in 1984 instead of 1987), The last Star Fighter (later known as Solaris) would have released in 1984 at least.
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That's probably true. But in my opinion. That if Warner held on in later in 1984, that the 7800 would of took off. If had a full national release by the end of 84. It's also possible the 5200 would of had a longer life span, and new games with it. Especially if Tempest would got released , back then. Maybe newer games for all 3 systems . Who knows , maybe the crash would of turned around by the end of 84. But by 86 Nes would of took over unless ATARI came up with really new and awesome games.
The 5200 wasn't going to a longer lifespan. Warner themselves already planned of discontinuing the 5200. Atari Inc. had that plan in May 1984. That meant the system would have been gone After December of 1984. Atari Inc. under Warner already had plans of a 16 bit computer and a more advanced Video system system than the 7800 according to Marty and Curt that Jack Tramiel didn't know about when he aquired the home video game and home computers divisions of Atari.. I think it was the Amiga matter of fact being the more advanced video system. That meant the Amiga was going to replace the 5200 and would have been Atari's 16 bit computer instead of the St also.
The only difference would have been more game releases in 1984 for the 5200. That meant Gremlins would have been released in 1984 instead of 1986. Super Pac-Man appeared to be one the games that was worked on past May and that meant that Super Pac-Man was going to be a 1984 game release. Tempest And the Laster Star Fighter was going to be a 1984 release under Warner also.
The 5200 also had games completed or near completed by March of 1984, but weren't released such as Final Legacy, Jr. Pac-Man, Stargate, Millipede and Xevious.
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I don't think the 7800 would cause Atari to turn around much sooner. The problem lies in how much Atari Inc. was losing at the time and Warner had to sell as a result. The system itself had a solid launch lineup in 1984, but the truth is Atari didn't have anything earth shattering for 7800 that was different than the 5200 or the 2600 in terms of games. That means Atari Inc. had nothing like Super Mario Bros. planned in 1984.
The launch titles in 1984 planned were Ms. Pac-man, Pole Position II, Centipede, Joust, Dig Dug, Desert Falcon, Robotron: 2084, Food Fight, Galaga, Xevious, Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractalus! and Track and Field. Atari Also had Asteroids 3-d for the 7800. The launch titles was good, but Asteroids should never been developed because a 1979 arcade game in 1984 isn't a good idea at all.
There also is a problem the titles Atari inc. planned for the 7800 after the Launch titles for the 7800. Master part list had similar issues as the launch titles titles. The games I am referring to is Crystal Castles, Millepede, Moon Patrol, Stargate, and Gremlins as Atari 7800. The problem is those games also were released or going to being released for the Atari 2600 and the 5200 also. There also was a report of Elevator Action for the 7800 was supposed to be shown at the 1984 CES show also according to Digital Press.
I didn't mention Chopterlifter because that game appear to be on Atari Corp planned for the 7800, not an Atari Inc. title. That meant it isn't clear if Atari Inc. would have planed on gaving Choperlifter as a 7800 game if Warner kept Atari longer.
The Arcade devision of Atari had Marble Madness, and Paperboy released in 1984, but It would have been too late for Warner in terms of the 7800. Marble Madness and Paperboy would have been 1985 or 1986 Atari 7800 arcade ports and that meant those games can't help the 7800 in 1984. Tramiel would have bought the home video game and computer game divisions of Atari only in 1985. That meant there was no chance of Marble Madness and Paperboy as Atari 7800 games anyway.
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I remembered that era well enough. I did not get a Nes before 1991 though despite playing it at other people's houses before than.
In early 1988, My Dad and I went to Toy"r"Us for me to pick a game console to buy. There was a Nes, SMS, Atari 2600 Jr., Atari 7800, and Atari XEGS. I looked at the systems and the games. I remembered the Nes having the biggest game libarary at the time in the store. I ended up with an Atari 2600 jr. since price the games was a factor at the time
While I was 9 in early 1988, something seemed odd with the amount of games Nes had compare to its compeititors in the store. When I was a teenager, thinking was correct since it was revealed that Nintendo had a 3rd party Monoply. Nes was going to win no matter what without a third party monoply for North America. It boils to the fact Nintendo had the best 1st party games, and would have had a bigger game Libarary than the SMS or the Atari 7800 anyway.
The percentage of the market would have changed though for North America for the Nes if there was no third party monoply with SMS not being behind the 7800 in System Sales in North America. The fact is Nintendo's 3rd party monoply caused 3rd parties not doing games for multiple platforms.
What would happen is Sega would have waited to released the Sega Genesis in Japan for 1989 or 1990 instead because North America would have been more successful for the SMS. That means the specs of the Genesis would have improved some and Sega Might not have been so desperate for an add-on.
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Reading back in the thread, I thought another (rather prolific) developer had taken this over..
Now, obviously if that's the case, it would be lower priority than his other projects, but might still be in the queue..
desiv
I know who you mean and is the same person that Gorf asked to finish the game Gorf. I forgot about the take over of Warbirds.
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I've seen lots of "dead projects" eventually produce something...
I am interested tho...
What "inside information" do you have to know that the project is actually "dead" as you say???
Or is that just your opinion because it stalled?
desiv
The first thing is the developer of the game Gorf, has been banned from Atariage for 2 or 3 years. The 2nd thing is I don't think anyone has taken over this project to finish it.
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Your link doesn't that they actually developed the games.
Here is my link of a list of games LucasArts developed.
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While you made a red square, It was under publisher. Gregory DG meant by LucasArts didn't do the Lego games was the fact Lucasarts didn't Develop them.
LucasArt not Developing the lego Star Wars games meant the only thing LucasArts was involved with the game was releasing. That basically meant LucasArts had nothing to do with the game from a developing standpoint and LucasArts outsourced the game.
I also have a list to show you. The list has games that Travellers Tales developed and it included Lego Star Wars: The complete Saga.
Link to list:
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Virtua Racing Deluxe, Space Harrier. and Virtua Fighter
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I know when the 7800 was discontinued, there was arcade ports of Toki, Road Riot 4wd, and Steel Talons planned and there was no prototype found yet. There hasn't been a more advance prototype of Ramport or Pit Fighter found.
The sadder part is Atari had a numbered part listing for 7800 games and a good amount of them weren't released or have a prototype copy found.. Arcade ports of Millipede, Jr. Pac-Man, Crystal Castles, Moon Patrol, Toki, Road Riot 4wd, and Steel Taloons was planned for the 7800, but there was no prototypes of those games yet going by Atari's Master List part on 7800 games.
Computer ports of Thunderfox, California games, Defiektor, Eliminator, Prince, Star Breaker, Xenon, Capone, Nine lives, Bad Lands Pete, and Black Lamp were planned for the 7800, but there was no prototypes planned yet based on Atari's 7800 master part list.
The 7800 also was supposed to have Atari Lynx ports of Chip's Challenge, Blue Lightning, and Gates Of Zendocon, but no prototypes were found either.
I forgot to mention about Midnight Magic, and Lode Runner being computer games with no prototypes found either.
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I see "Tag Team Wrestling" on that list of never released shit for the 7800. I would love to see what that was about.
I didn't see tag team wrestling on the list, but Atari Team Wrestling. Atari Team Wrestling from what I gathered is the title that became Mat Mania Challenge.
Here is a couple of the list: http://www.jaguarsector.com/index.php?showtopic=13953
It is similar to the Digitpress version of the Atari Master list for the 7800.
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That stinks. It makes me wonder what else was hiding away in limbo when the axe fell on the 7800 back in the day. Tengen had a number of good titles on the nes. Road Runner, Rolling Thunder, and Toobin were in that time period in addition to the awesome nes Ms. Pac Man and Tetris.
I know when the 7800 was discontinued, there was arcade ports of Toki, Road Riot 4wd, and Steel Talons planned and there was no prototype found yet. There hasn't been a more advance prototype of Ramport or Pit Fighter found.
The sadder part is Atari had a numbered part listing for 7800 games and a good amount of them weren't released or have a prototype copy found.. Arcade ports of Millipede, Jr. Pac-Man, Crystal Castles, Moon Patrol, Toki, Road Riot 4wd, and Steel Taloons was planned for the 7800, but there was no prototypes of those games yet going by Atari's Master List part on 7800 games.
Computer ports of Thunderfox, California games, Defiektor, Eliminator, Prince, Star Breaker, Xenon, Capone, Nine lives, Bad Lands Pete, and Black Lamp were planned for the 7800, but there was no prototypes planned yet based on Atari's 7800 master part list.
The 7800 also was supposed to have Atari Lynx ports of Chip's Challenge, Blue Lightning, and Gates Of Zendocon, but no prototypes were found either.
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Wow! Great news
in Atari 7800
Posted
I am glad to hear that your XM test unit back up and alive again. Thanks for the update.