onmode-ky

They wouldn't necessarily have to do a whole lot of game-specific work if most of the PS3-native parts of the code are able to be used across multiple games. Thus, they could pack the PS2 game along with a small library of in-common PS3 functions and instruct the emulator to run the PS3 parts when certain instructions/functions are called in the PS2 code. The expense of doing it this way is basically analogous to the expense of fixing a bunch of bugs that get found in the emulator itself; it may cost more than that, but it similarly benefits a wide spectrum of your product line. Could you point me to what you read? I don't mean that I disbelieve you, rather that I'm trying to find as much hard information about the background of this as possible. Until I see definite evidence of this, though, I still don't think this is the same as the method used by Microsoft. As I understand it, the Microsoft solution had 3 parts: emulator residing in the firmware, emulation profile downloaded to the hard drive, and then game itself either on optical disc or hard drive. What I think we have on the PS3 is just emulator in the firmware and game on hard drive, where the game has some substantial differences from the PS2 game, rather than just being accompanied by a list of settings for the emulator to operate under. The whole reason the PS3 quit PS2 emulation for so many years was that the PS2 GPU could not be (satisfactorily) emulated on the machine, and I would be surprised if the solution were as simple as simply having the emulator switch modes or switch subroutines based on a settings configuration file. Well, actually, it does make sense, and what it accomplishes is allowing the game to run without performance issues. If you try to run a SNES emulator on, say, a 486DX2-66, I would imagine the game might run very slowly, with lots of frame-skipping, etc. If you converted the code to be x86/Windows-native, it would play at the right speed because it's not stuck spending the entire time trying to translate instructions. Similarly, if you took PS2 code that ran poorly (i.e., bottlenecked) when being translated on the fly by the PS3 and ported it so that it could just run without having to go through the translation step, you would improve the performance of the program. What you would then have to do is flag the emulator: "translate the PS2 code on the fly like normal unless you find one of this set {A} of instructions/functions, in which case fetch instructions from this PS3 code over here that have already been translated and optimized, then return." Note that I'm not saying the PS2 game actually needs to be recompiled/relinked, which would indeed require more business resources. Does what I said sound reasonable? Unreasonable? onmode-ky

I just successfully put in an edit on the plug-n-play post. Thanks, Al! I did notice something odd, though, and I can't remember if this was the original behavior: in advanced reply mode, when attaching a new document (text file) to the post, the attachment did not show up automatically, nor autoreload the page, nor display any sort of message to indicate that it had worked. I did it twice and then thought to check my user attachments list under my profile, whereupon I discovered that both attachment attempts had actually worked (so I deleted one of them). Did the attachment process always give no indication of success? My vague memory says no. I would like a "Malcontent" button on the riot version. onmode-ky

Al, I seem to have lost the indefinite edit privileges I used to have on this post and this post. At the least, if I still have these privileges, I can't figure out where the Edit button went on the posts. Help, please? onmode-ky Edit: Oops, I just saw your status update on post editing getting broken today. I guess that answers that. Time to wait.

Shaggy, I called the movie theater who hosted your DBAC cabinet just before you got it, and I asked them if they would be getting the game back once it was released. The answer was no, and they cited technical problems with the machine when they had it, e.g., problems with the coin mechanism and the screen. Since the machine is yours now, have you had any such issues with it? onmode-ky

Sorry, I wasn't trying to refute anything you were saying. I was just making a side note about the PSP parts. The PSP's PS1 emulator actually creates 2 virtual memory cards for each game, and the game will only be able to use those cards. If you hook the PSP up to the PS3 (or stick the Memory Stick into a PS3 with a slot for it), the PS3's utility is able to see those as PS1 memory cards even though the actual file structure is not the same. The PS3 is able to copy save files back and forth between its own virtual memory cards and those of the PSP; however, when copying to the PSP, it asks if you want to reformat the save file to be playable on the PSP or if you just want to put the save file on the Memory Stick for transport/backup purposes. The differences are visible if you look at the Memory Stick via a PC. The memory cards are individual files in the PSP-playable implementation, while the save files are are the individual files otherwise (they're also not stored in the same directory trees). Okay, I finally found a Sony-side comment (response to a user comment) in that blog post which confirmed that the PS2 games were being converted for the PS3. If you combine that with the other Sony guy who said they were being emulated, I guess that's "evidence" that it's part port, part emulation. . . . What I'm really looking for is some detail on which parts they have to convert, though. That would give some greater visibility on whether this is possible (probable) across the full spectrum of PS2 titles or only certain ones, that used a common library they've done conversion work for already. I think they meant "hard to find nowadays" rather than straight "obscure." Granted, I can't say I know the rarity of any of those; maybe even the GH releases are not easy to find now? The software BC models still had the PS2 graphics chip, while using emulation for the PS2's Emotion Engine CPU. The non-BC models lost the PS2 graphics chip, which is what killed PS2 compatibility for them. The implication is that the PS3 cannot effectively emulate that GPU, perhaps only able to do so with noticeable performance impact. These PS2 Classics downloads most likely emulate the CPU and parts of the GPU, while redirecting certain GPU tasks to PS3-native code. I'm most curious about whether the parts that got converted are applicable to all PS2 games or whether PS2 games used a big bunch of different graphics libraries which would have to be converted separately (thereby both slowing the flow of incoming PS2 games to the Store and limiting the number which would be converted, as some would no doubt be considered not worth the programmer resources). A closely related question: how low-level was the conversion done? Were programmer-readable libraries converted, or did specific strings of assembly language known to be commonly used get converted, or somewhere in the middle? However, the existence of PS1 disc compatibility in addition to PS1 Classics in the Store contradicts that theory, doesn't it? The PS1 Classics are largely unmodified PS1 games, though. That is, their code expects multi-disc games to be on multiple discs. You would have to rewrite/recompile the source code in order to take that out (after all, they're coded to ask for disc-switching upon event triggers, not just when "the data isn't on this disc, so it must be on another one" occurs). I think the most that was done in making the download versions was editing object pointers so that things which had the same name on different discs now have unique identifiers in the file (and, if things had different names on different discs but were the same object, they're now the same, single object). Of course, I'm just hypothesizing. onmode-ky

I bought Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch: Lost Colors expressly because the game allows you to save one of the characters who dies in the original TV series. This would be an even stupider reason if I couldn't understand any of the Japanese dialogue at all, but I actually can, for the most part. onmode-ky

Technically, these two can be combined under the label "PSP Save File Backup Capability," since any PSP save file, no matter whether the PS3 can use, will use, or will never be able to use it, can be managed through that utility. I see. I don't have any NeoGeo for PS3 games, but I have one for the PSP. I recall there being far more than just 2 save files for the emulator there, and I believe individual games may even have multiple files (without including replay files). The PSP versions of these work similarly. Curiously, the PS3 and PSP emulators (i.e., the individual game binaries) are so disparate that their save files are totally incompatible with each other. It's kind of weird making one purchase and getting one game playable on two systems--but without cross-compatible save files as I've grown accustomed to with the PS1 Classics. That's what I suspect as well, but do you have a reliable source for that information? That's what I'm looking for. I'm not trusting that PSN guy I found, since his claim of emulation "just like with the PS1 Classics," rather than partial porting, seems implausible. I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I'm aware that whatever is being used to allow these games to run on the PS3 is limited to what is currently being offered in the PS Store. My point in bringing up my own disc not working was to counter the claim by that PSN guy that it was straight emulation just like how the PS3 runs PS1 games, since it clearly isn't the same mechanism. The reason I brought it up was not that I couldn't understand why my disc didn't work. I have to disagree with this analogy. The Xbox BC patches were meant to provide compatibility with physical disc copies of games, which is not what we're getting with the PS Store PS2 Classics. That PSN guy noted that they specifically chose hard-to-find titles to start off the program. Assuming that these PS2 Classics releases are indeed partial ports, with some portions rewritten to be PS3-native, I'm hoping that Sony will eventually release "PS2 compatibility patches" per game in the PS Store as free downloads. That is, these would be binaries which hook into the PS3's existing PS2 emulator such that the emulator translates code from a PS2 disc in the drive along with running as-needed "replacement" code from the patches (e.g., "when disc code calls function X, use code Y from patch file instead of attempting translation"). This would be a workable method of reinstating backward compatibility, though perhaps not entirely user-friendly, along with being limited to a trickle of titles being patched in this manner. onmode-ky

It is strange that the PS2 Classics are not being listed in the main New Releases section on the PS Store, while the PS1 Classics do get listed there, but they at least do have their own section right now under New Releases. If you go (storefront) -> New Releases -> Only on PSN -> PS2 Classics, all of them are in there. Since you've got one already: do these games use PS3-type save files, or do they use the virtual PS2 memory card system on the PS3 (i.e., actual PS2 save files, that would be cross-compatible with a PS2 disc copy of the game)? Is the PS-button menu the same as with the PS1 Classics (i.e., same black screen and white text list of menu selections)? A guy who works doing something on PlayStation Network (seems to have something to do with bringing indie games to the Store) claims that these are emulated, just like the PS1 Classics. I find that hard to believe, because, well, my disc copy of Odin Sphere still won't play on my slim PS3. If there is emulation going on, maybe it's only partial, with some parts of the code rewritten for PS3 optimization. onmode-ky

Just some minor comments on your (written) review: - The name of the company is "AtGames," not "AT Games." I'm not sure where people have been getting "AT Games," but "AtGames" is how it's written in their press releases and on their packaging. Their website omits the camelcase and goes with "Atgames." - The FB2+ was not created for any sort of inventory clearance reasons. It was specifically ordered by General Mills for a product promotion. I have one of the Honey Nut Cheerios boxes with the promo. onmode-ky

Damn it, I wish I could go over and help you out with Chronicle Mode. Have you gotten the timing down for a head-on Counterburst attack? I hear it's different from the PSP original's timing. Do you have or know where to find a list of the locations where this American test is happening? I'd love to find one around my neck of the woods. One more thing: when not using headphones, how well does the music come out in a busy arcade atmosphere? onmode-ky Edit: Are you FREAKING KIDDING ME??? Your DBAC cab had previously been at a movie theater less than an hour away from me, and which I have been to before (years ago)?! Why did I have to find out like this? WHY???

I have a backward compatible 80-GB PS3 and a Slim model. The Slim is much, much quieter, about on par with my PS2 (also a Slim). Its big brother gets somewhat loud while playing PS2 games, but it otherwise has no noticeable issues. onmode-ky

Hmm. It sort of sounds like you might be thinking of Septerra Core, though that game concerns concentric continents of a single planet, rather than multiple planets. There might have been keyboard shortcuts, but it was generally mouse control, and the main character was a blue-haired girl named Maya. The game had significant anime influence in its art and design, with a distinctive bit of Nagano Mamoru (The Five Star Stories) mecha style in the imperial soldiers. onmode-ky

Well, there are plenty of 70s/80s/90s arcade titles that have not appeared on plug-n-play game systems, so if Jakks' new Taito stick actually does lead to a retro plug-n-play revival, there is still a wealth of material to mine. And even if they do start to lean toward console titles, the fact that these units have save data capability means long-form games are also doable. Space Invaders is the most famous Taito IP, after all. Elevator Action actually came to mind for me as well, mostly because a new game in the series just hit the HD consoles' download services. However, I don't think it's in this unit, because surely the ESRB ratings summary would have included references to shooting other people in that game. After all, it already talks about using throwing stars to kill enemies in Legend of Kage. What's the gameplay like in those? Not to my knowledge. Back when these were just starting to rise in popularity, IGN had reviews of some of Jakks' products, but that stopped before 2004 was over, I think. Your closest bet is probably Amazon.com user reviews, but then you have the problem of some reviewers being even more clueless and/or unqualified than "real" reviewers. You might get better results searching here at the AtariAge forum for reviews. I did spot a fairly new Wikia site with some coverage of a handful of models . . . but the writing style leads me to believe it's written by a kid. So, quality/accuracy of the evaluations may be lacking. Thanks for the suggestion. The next update of my pnpgames.*.txt files will include some new indicators: em = runs original binaries on an emulator na = runs original binaries natively on the hardware (absence of both "em" and "na" means the game was ported/recreated for the new hardware) sd = includes an SD card slot hh = handheld system (i.e., has an LCD screen while also supporting TV output) js = joystick controller (to distinguish from "hh" models). Also, your Genesis stick, assuming you mean it's like an arcade joystick-and-buttons panel, is the Fightstick I listed. From looking at the screenshots, those aren't Genesis games. They're either native to the unit's ARM CPU or run in another emulator. There's actually an AtGames Sega-brand device which seems to play cell phone games Sega made a few years ago. I don't remember which specific phone platform it ran, but the downloadable games for the device are here. onmode-ky

Yeah. The 1st Yellow number is the 100 Million place for some reason. B The reason is that it is a Japanese game. In Oriental cultures, the increment between words describing large numerical magnitude levels is 4 digits. For example, there is a single word for what Western cultures call "ten thousand" (10^4). The way you say "one million" (10^6) is equivalent to "one hundred ten-thousands" (10^2 * 10^4). And, accordingly, there is a single word for what Western cultures call "one hundred million" (10^. onmode-ky

I spotted this new entry in the ESRB database earlier today. Outside of the Flashback 2+ and AtGames' controversial Sega and (now) Atari efforts, the retro plug-n-play games scene has been extremely quiet since 2008, and the last one that wasn't just a reorganization of previous plug-n-play systems came out in 2006 (well, unless you count Big Buck Hunter and Golden Tee Golf as retro). Given that the market as a whole has been trending downward, I'm honestly a little surprised to see this as an upcoming release, but there it is. If your clicking finger is too tired, here is what it says (it's an "E for Everyone" rating assigned for Jakks Pacific, for a plug-n-play game system): That the publisher is Jakks Pacific is not actually visible in this link, but it's visible in ESRB database search results. There was a previous Taito Space Invaders plug-n-play system, incidentally, by Radica Games in 2004 (prior to Mattel buying them up), which included Qix, Lunar Rescue, Phoenix, and Colony 7. I wonder if Jakks' new system will have any repeats aside from Space Invaders. Regarding those five unnamed games, it's too much to hope for Darius or Ninja Warriors (triple-wide games), but I'd be interested to see some of the games that were in Bandai Namco's Japan-only Taito Nostalgia plug-n-plays from 2006 (in addition to Legend of Kage, that is), particularly Slap Fight. What's really interesting in the ESRB description is the mention of Tube-It, which is from 1993, far newer than any previous Taito arcade game released in a plug-n-play system. Might the 5 unmentioned games include contemporary titles . . . like Metal Black or Darius Gaiden? After all, with today's Generalplus MCUs supporting NAND ROMs and SDRAM, there's a lot more capacity available. However, Tube-It ran on simpler, slower hardware than either of those two titles, so it's not a good indicator. Perhaps this is a better question: is this the beginning of a revival in retro plug-n-play, or will it be just a one-off appearance? Personally, I don't see this being such a huge sales success that it will be followed by more, but I also know jack squat about consumer tendencies. Besides, it's perfectly conceivable that this is only part of a retro blitz Jakks Pacific might be planning. onmode-ky

Meant to reply to this earlier but forgot. In my earlier post, I was intending to attribute your post to misinterpretation, not intentional misportrayal. Specifically, that editing quoted text can lead to the guy doing the editing himself misreading what someone else wrote. I hope no one read my post as an accusation of ill intent. onmode-ky

I recently got a Move starter set (1 Move controller, 1 Eye, 1 game) when it was an Amazon.com Lightning Deal for half retail price. Since I'm not interested in golf games, I'm planning to sell the included game unopened, which should cut my cost for the hardware to between $20-$30. Even without a sale price like this, the starter set is still the best way to go to get a Move setup, if you sell the parts you don't want/need. I've never used a Wii Motion+ controller, but the Move is definitely far more accurate than a standard Wii remote. In my experience with the Wii, I constantly get misread inputs seriously screwing up my target accuracy, but not so thus far with the Move (mind you, the only things I've played with it so far don't involve lots of large motions, but it's definitely quite good with small-scale precision). Also, the light-ball tracking with the Move is much easier to handle than the Wii's infrared pointer system. As for how widespread it is, I really can't tell, but it doesn't seem anywhere near "dead on arrival" level. onmode-ky

Yes, for series like this with very low likelihood of proper licensed release, I would definitely recommend fansubs over bootlegs. First of all, there's no profit being made from someone else's work; secondly, you're a whole lot more likely to get comprehensible and correct subtitles with a fansub than with a bootleg. Like, say, "Hang on!" rather than "Cheer up!" for "Shikkari shiro!" in the context of one character holding a mortally wounded comrade in his arms. At the other end of the spectrum, you could go with the Japanese Valkyria Chronicles Blu-ray 4-disc box set, no English subtitles, for over $300--and that's before international shipping charges. An official North American release would really be a nice middle ground. onmode-ky

Eh? What?! I think I would have known if the Valkyria Chronicles anime TV series had been licensed for North American release. Where did you find it? Or were you talking about a bootleg (in which case I have to ask why you paid money for a bootleg rather than just finding fansubs for free on the Internet)? onmode-ky I picked up the Japanese import (with English subtitles) at a Flea Market booth that sold nothing but Anime stuff. Cost me $15 new and to me it was a bargain. Mendon Well, that was a bootleg (most likely Chinese). The actual Japanese release of the series on DVD was 9 discs, no English subtitles (hardly ever any subtitles on Japanese disc releases), and way more than $15 per disc. And it would not be playable in a Region 1 DVD player because it would be Region 2. I don't know how you feel about bootlegs, but I'd be upset if I were you. onmode-ky

Eh? What?! I think I would have known if the Valkyria Chronicles anime TV series had been licensed for North American release. Where did you find it? Or were you talking about a bootleg (in which case I have to ask why you paid money for a bootleg rather than just finding fansubs for free on the Internet)? onmode-ky

Let's Golf 3D takes up about 196 MB. Not sure if that's the limit or not, assuming there is a limit. [snip] Edit - Let's Golf 3D isn't even a WiiWare release. It's a E-Shop game for the 3DS, a system with 2 gigs of internal memory (4 times that of the Wii). Oops. Forgot to mention it was a 3DS eShop title. You didn't need to; it was clear from the context. Atariboy edited the quoted text and managed to confuse himself in the process. Here's the original text, edited but keeping consecutive text intact: Let's Golf 3D takes up about 196 MB. Not sure if that's the limit or not, assuming there is a limit. To me, anyway, it seems obvious from this that you were talking about a 3DS eShop game. The dangers of quote editing! onmode-ky

Curt, was it Atari or AtGames who asked you to review it? It doesn't seem like it should be Atari, since they're just the licensor in this case, yet it also doesn't seem like it should be AtGames, since their track record with Genesis plug-n-plays doesn't show much interest in correcting obvious bugs. onmode-ky

The only thing about this theory is that there are already several CD-based games available in the Virtual Console section. The Turbo DUO Dracula X: Rhondo of Blood, Gradius II Gofer, and Lords of Thunder, to name a few, all sound great. I'm not sure I would buy that excuse even if they ended up publicly stating that as a reason. Maybe they are simply riding the "time to abandon the Wii" train that a lot of publishers are doing these days? Who knows.. Virtual Console is not part of WiiWare. The maximum game size allowed on WiiWare is 40 MB. Also of note, the minimum sales threshold (needed to be met by your game before Nintendo will actually pay you) is lower for games under 16 MB. DSiWare has a 16-MB size limit and no thresholds. Maybe the size limit thing is also why this isn't coming to 3DS. I don't know the 3DS limits, though. onmode-ky

I'll link to my earlier post with scores. onmode-ky

I haven't checked on compatibility, but I'd like to nominate: 1997: G-Darius 1998: Gradius IV: Fukkatsu onmode-ky