goatdan
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Posts posted by goatdan
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I don't know if anyone wants these, but last year they had a launch of the .INFO name where you could register .INFO things for free. I picked up a bunch of things thinking I would link them to certain pages on the GOAT Store, and it just never happened. Some of them are pretty slick though.
If you want any transferred to you, PM me. I have no clue on cost or how transferring them works. I'm asking for $5.00 per name if I do end up transferring any of these just to cover a little bit of my time. Here is the list:
3DOGAMES.INFO
ATARI2600GAMES.INFO
ATARI5200.INFO
ATARI7800.INFO
ATARIJAGUAR.INFO
ATARISYSTEMS.INFO
DREAMCASTGAMES.INFO
INTELLIVISIONGAMES.INFO
MASTERSYSTEM.INFO
NINTENDO64GAMES.INFO
NINTENDO64SYSTEMS.INFO
NINTENDOSYSTEMS.INFO
ODYSSEY2.INFO
SEGA32X.INFO
SEGACD.INFO
SEGADREAMCASTGAMES.INFO
SEGAGAMEGEAR.INFO
SEGAGENESIS.INFO
SEGAMASTERSYSTEM.INFO
SEGASYSTEMS.INFO
If anything tickles your fancy, PM me and I'll figure out the next step. If not one PMs me, all of these will be public domain again in a few months, so you'll still have a chance at them there.
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The reason I mentioned it in the first place because the magazine claims that the Jaguar was falsely claiming that it was 64 bits. I agree completely with what you're saying, but at the same time -- by hardware definition, the Jaguar was 64 bit. It just simply doesn't really matter.
It's strange that a collectors magazine would not know that fact about the Jaguar. A more mainstream publication I would just let it slide because they still do equate bits to power.
A quick aside about "bits": In the early days, a console was usually a fairly simple computing device where you could tell a little something about its performance by the size and speed of the bus everything sat on (in this regard, the Jag does well on size, but poorly on speed). Today, consoles are made of many complex devices each with their own busses and clock speeds, and you have to judge performance based on real-world tests.You are mistaken. Even in the 'early days', a console wasn't simple enough to be judged on bits alone, and you really couldn't tell much at all from just the bit rating. I mean, the Intellivision was a 16 bit console. The NES had the same "bits" in it as the Odyssey2 did, yet the WORST looking NES game is about 100 times nicer looking than the BEST looking Odyssey2 game.
Sega pulled out the "WE ARE 16 BIT!" campaign, with NEC jumped onto the bandwagon with (although the TG16 is a 8 bit processor at heart, with a non-main CPU that was 16 bit... just like the Jaguar) and Atari followed that up with a "WE ARE 64 BIT!" claim that was true, although it didn't really matter. All that it was is marketing. No one in the "8 bit" era tried claiming they were 8 bits because just about everything (except the 16-bit Intellivision) was 8 bits. The number was drilled into people's heads as a marketing scheme, and it is pretty useless for anything beyond that.
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I haven't gotten to check out the joystick that Dan made, but it looks exactly like I would think a high-quality arcade stick would look like... I hope to try one some day or make a similar one...
I'd also like to say kudos to Dan for being able to deal with the Trolls.
I really don't understand how the Jag scene really seems to draw the trolls like flies to shit....
IF YOU DONT LIKE THE JAG, PLEASE SAVE US THE TRITE RAMBLINGS AND BIASED BASHING AND JUST DON'T POST HERE.
It's very clear that certain people do not like the Jag and are severely biased
against any thing that is even remotely related to it.
If you have some constructive to say or can say your opinion in a manner that is appropiate, do so... I don't understand how you people even function in the real world... well, middle school, playground, or wherever you children hang out.
And I'm not being a "fanboy" but I know a lot of people with opinion for or against certain games or systems and they can tell how they feel without being a tool.
I don't go hang out on Gamecube PS2 boards and harrass people because I personally don't care much about the systems. Theyre just not my favorites.. I admit they have some good games, but prefer the xbox... and I don't get my undies in a wad if someone disagrees. But fanboys and trolls are different and do get under my skin.
Brad
I don't understand it either. It's why I haven't been posting as much in the Jaguar community as I have in other things for a while. The taste that Jagfest 2K1 left in my mouth after I was labeled a nazi and had my email address bombed by people telling me that I should never be in the community showed me just how crappy people can be for no apparent reason. Viva la Dreamcast!
That having been said, I still do love my Jaguar and I enjoy stopping by to read the people that I know actually add things to the community. There have been some good opinion sharing in the past over what is the best games and which games suck and so on. The problem is that certain members just hang around here to claim that everything sucks, and we are all wrong.
As for the joystick, I guess that if jesusc is a better source on what a joystick layout should be than the people who construct the real games, play the real games and own the real games, I guess I can't win. He's right. It must suck. I'll call Gene Cunningham sometime and tell him that some no-name on a message board feels that his opinion doesn't matter on constructing an arcade stick.
the point wasn't the amount of buttons. it was the layout.
four in a row' date=' two rows of three in a row, etc. get the picture? hint, the buttons are laid out in a row, thus being more accessible and comfortable to use.
[/quote']
I refuse to see how you do not understand the point. In that case, I'll compare the joystick's button layout to Ms. Pac-Man, because if Ms. Pac-Man had buttons, that would've been how they would've been.
If you want to make a point, find other three button examples because that is what we were talking about and make them. The MVS layout is not a good "in-a-row" example, and the six button layout is that way because of the types of games. There are two general three button layouts -- the layout on the joystick and the upside down version of that. You cited one three-button example, and I explained why it wasn't that one.
I didn't attack the analogy for any other reason than it was a stupid analogy' date=' and it needed to pointed out as such.I didn't attack a stick without any valid point "for such a long time". I refer you to post number 9 "weirdo three button layout." , I stated why I felt the way I did right there. perhaps if you took the time to actually read what I wrote, as opposed to getting all defensive about it, you'd realize that.[/quote']
Yes, after you said, "I said decent stick. Whilst what you showed in the pic surely could be indentified as a stick it hardly looks decent." Had you instead said, "I do not understand how a joystick with a button layout like that could be well used in Primal Rage." it would've been a reason. You attacked the joystick before you cited a reason, and your reason of "weirdo button layout" is purely an opinion that is not based on fact.
Whatever.Yeah. Whatever.
I've stated my point ad nausum' date=' and am tired of repeating myself. How you keep missing it is a mystery to me. Yet I will continue to do so' date=' lest I be accused of painting myself in a corner again.[/quote'']You are a classic troll. You already have been painted into a corner. You claimed that it was obvious to see that it was not easy to use. The exact statement was "I meant decent as in ease of use." Not "I think it wouldn't be easy to use." or something like that.
Again, I know the people involved with these machines. I am friends with Gene Cunningham, who told me that the joysticks looked awesome and used the best layout. I checked with my friend Tom who owns about 40 pins and 20 vids, and he agreed that it would be the layout to use. I asked two people I know that worked for about six years doing repair work on JAMMA cabinets, and they told me that it was the best layout.
So your point that you have stated, that the stick design is not easy to use, is a sentiment that is not echoed by anyone actually associated with arcade games. Why don't you tell me how you came accross such a profound statement without ever feeling the joystick yourself?
[qoute=jesusc]As far as the "intended market" goes, this is the Jaguar community. You know, the ones that happily shell out $70+ for the likes of Soccer Kid. (now that is in no way a dig at Carl Forhan. He provides a nice service for the community, and I hope can continue to do so.)
Actually, the "intended market" was not the Jaguar community, but the person who wanted an arcade like experience at home. We also sold JAMMA Joysticks for the 2600 and the response was again overwhelmingly positive. Besides that, what you are essentially stating is that you feel Carl Forhan is smart because he can rape the Jaguar community with super high prices for games. I hate to tell you this, but I don't think that the people who love the Jaguar are all super-rich people. I doubt many people who were buying his games were doing so just because it was a Jaguar product. Considering what this product is, and the fact that most of them sold to people who I did not know through message boards, I'd say it hit home perfectly.
Then again, I run an online business that has been successful for five years, I have to figure out what we are going to stock, I have released three Dreamcast games and I hope to have more coming, but it is obvious that I must know absolutely nothing about the intended market, nor who it is that are buying things.
You're really grasping at straws here dude. I know you don't want to paint yourself into a corner, but I think I've properly destroyed all of your points. Good luck in the reply. Unless you come up with something new, I won't plan on replying to you.
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Like the controller has different internal designs that can be figured out from the serial number prefix has anyone actually tried to work out which of the Jags have the analog handling chip and which dont, and might it be determined by the Serial number production code prefix? also I would be happy to open up my jags to see if any of them had the chip - if I knew what I was looking for? I guess a pic of the actual chip from someone that has a Jag that works with a Flightstick would be of use here.Which leads me neatly on to my next question - can this chip be retrofitted to Jags that dont have it? Or is the motherboard physically a different design? Has anyone looked into this properly yet? (I guess DKG probably did quite urgently when the sticks began arriving back as defective!)
There is some way to figure it out. I believe it is something obvious too, like K-series Jaguars do have them and M-series do not. I don't recall any more though.
Dark Knight Games never looked into the problem, and simply blamed it on VD3D. DKG was in absolutely no way trying to do anything for the Jaguar community when they 'released' these products. All they cared about was changing their Web site to attract investors. For the whole story, go here:
http://www.ataritimes.com/jaguar/features/dkgstory.html
And ironically, Dave Bell recently threatened Greg that he would sue him if he did not remove this article because they are once again in need of funding, and when you do a search for Dave Bell it is one of the top results. Dave stated that I couldn't back up any of my info, but I still have all of the emails...
Good ol' Dave Bell. Real nice guy who really wants to give back to gaming
Also, in retrospect I would say that their funding didn't come from the stuff that we did. The fact of the matter was that it came from Dave working the investors just like any good dot com bubble guy did. He did a great job of selling the company with absolutely no products whatsoever. We got in trouble -- and subsequently left the company -- because we were trying to produce and sell things.
Hey Dan!Good info, I had heard about the Team 13 Joystick, but alas, it has always eluded me as well.
Hopefully someday I can add it, but I will add it to the rarity list. It's in need a big update. I'll also make a change on the 2mb version of Cybermorph.Yes, I knew Derek made the Jaglink 2, I'll make sure his name is shown there. I'll add some clarification between the Jamma and Jamma LX. Since the Jamma was produced less, would you consider it to be worth more? I never see either of your joysticks on ebay so it's very difficult to price....
I'd say the Team 13 joystick is about a R8, but would only be worth at most $20.00. For as decent of a stick as it is, it looks really stupid in pictures.
Just because the non-LX JAMMA was made in lesser quantities shouldn't mean that it should change prices at all. It didn't sell as well because it simply wasn't as good of a design. I haven't seen them sell either recently, but I would guess that your prices are actually just about right on them. If we don't decide to "restart the line" in a couple months here when we open up the new section of the site, I know that if I see one on eBay, I'll be bidding myself
I don't even have one! -
Oh hey! One more thing...
The Flight Sticks were not created by Team 13 / the GOAT Store. They were created by VD3D (Visual Designs 3D) and were going to be limited to a run of 100 sticks. The fact that only certain Jaguars had the chip in them that allowed them to read analog meant that of the first 5-10 that were produced, Dark Knight Games (who was selling them) got most of them back as "defective." As the story goes, DKG sent the defective sticks back to VD3D, who tried them and found no problems on their Jags-with-the-chips. Thus officially ended the life of the flight sticks. I assume those other sticks were sold, but I would be floored if more than 20 of them exist.
The Team 13 joysticks (of which you do not seem to have one of
I'll have to take a picture of mine sometime) was the joysticks you must have been thinking of. They were by no means professional, however. The fiasco with the VD3D sticks was the reason DKG wanted to see the JAMMA Joysticks before we began selling them through DKG, and when we told DKG that we essentially couldn't afford to pay for the parts of the JAMMA Joystick to let him test it, that was the beginning of the end of our relationship.And one other thing while I'm going through everything... There was also a Jagfest 2K1 shirt that was really quite nice in my opinion. I helped to design it, but was really surprised by the end result. It looks like quite a bit like this shirt:
http://www.jaysmith2000.com/images/DSC01174.JPG
I'll have to see if I can get a picture of that sometime too
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One peice of hardware, and one rarity correction for you
There was also the "Team 13 Joystick" which was the "stick added to the D-pad" method of making a joystick. This could be bought in preassembled or prepackaged format. About 50 of these were sold. They were originally sold for $13.00 apiece. I haven't ever seen one except the two Gary and I kept since they were sold.
The Jaguar JAMMA Joystick sold far less than the Jaguar JAMMA Joystick LX, so much so that we discontinued the non-LX joystick about halfway through the run. It also helped that making the damn thing was nearly impossible.
Oh yes, the Jaglink 2 was not made by Atari, but by Derek Else under the name of Else Engineering.
Other than that, quite the impressive list. The only price things I would say is that the 2MB version of Cybermorph is worth more than the 1MB version, if it is noted as being the 2MB version. We sell it for $8.00 at the GOAT Store loose, and whenever we get the 2MB version it leaves quickly.
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"Where did I make such a statement?
right here
It doesn't matter what you think, but looking at a picture of a joystick and claiming that a stick like that "hardly looks decent" is a pretty bold, stupid statement.
If you still think that by at it and claiming that, it is the ultimate word on it, you're crazy. Your opinion in that paragraph didn't matter, because you did not give any reason for it. If you give a reason (as you did later), you can state such things.
There is criticism, there is stupidity. I can criticise Halo, and I do -- but I do not state it is a horrendous game. Even I know that although I think it isn't great, it is a very good game.
Where is this corner I talked myself into?You made a stupid analogy, and I presented a scenario where it could possibly be true. I didn't personally attack you. i didn't call you names. I attacked a stick that was made by you.
i apologize if you can't understand the difference between the two.
The fact that you can come on here and attack a stick with absolutely no valid complaints for such a long time proves what a troll you are. And the fact that you have to then attack the analogies that I make as not making sense, I'd say that was you trying to take attention off the fact that you don't have a point, which you only make more clear by your posts.
As far as Xmen and Nba Jam go, yes they were pretty uncomfortable as well. But the button positioning still is different than what is on your stick. We have arcades where I work as well: two MVS, four converted Street Fighter 2 cabinets, and NFL Blitz Gold. Guess what kind of layout they have.Hmmmm...
Well, lets see here:
The MVS cabinets have four buttons in the straight row style layout, which personally I think is one of the hardest ones to use if you have a game that uses all four of the buttons. The layout is spread out rather far, and people that don't usually play on the machines usually have to look at their hands to figure out where the buttons are. Personally, if you have a four button layout (which doesn't apply here, as the Jaguar is a three button layout), I much prefer the layout that was used on such cabs as Tekken.
The Street Fighter 2 conversion cabinets use the six button layout that was pretty much made a standard by Street Fighter 2. It isn't a bad layout at all when you are using 6 buttons, and if there had been a Jaguar JAMMA Joystick that I made with six buttons it would have used this layout. But really, the Pro Controller had eight buttons, and the six button control scheme simply wasn't worthwhile for the few Jag games that utilize it (it would have added an extra $12+ to the final price.)
The NFL Blitz Gold cabinet has the three buttons configured in the reverse JAMMA shape that the Jaguar JAMMA Joystick has. This is because during the game, the white button is used for Turbo, which is almost always pressed down by the players. It is not a button that needs to be mashed, nor a button that you try to "avoid" as the special is in the layout of the joystick itself. Considering that the only game to have a turbo button was NBA Jam (which changed to this joystick configuration in subsequent revisions) and it would have otherwise got in the way, the decision to go with the three button "special" layout was much easier.
Now, if you'd like to cite some more games that would actually back up your point (NFL Blitz is the only three button game you named, so I don't know what you meant to prove with the other ones?), I would understand it more. But again... Take the opinion of a troll or take the opinion of some of the people who I know who own hundreds of arcade games about a Jaguar joystick... I *think* I'll go with the people who actually own the arcade games.
On a side note, Gene Cunningham was very impressed with the joysticks when I showed him one of them at the 2003 Midwest Classic. Coming from the man who now owns Bally, Williams, Capcom and Alvin G pinball companies, as well as has a collection of arcade machines that number into the hundreds and that he doesn't enjoy consoles at all, I think that his opinion would be a pretty good indication of if the joysticks were any good and if they were well received by their intended market.
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I guess i'm just getting terms mixed up.The big joke used to be when a company would say "we shipped five million systems this christmas"
then someone else would state "yeah, but only 500,000 sold through".
As in five million were sent to stores, yet only 500,000 were actually bought by people. leaving you with an installed base of 500,000; and the stores with 4.5 million units collecting dust.
anyhow, throughout all this all i know is that no one seems to know anything for sure.
No, quite unfortunately no one really does know.
The stats you are talking about above are shipped through vs. sell through numbers. Most companies cite their shipped through numbers, although the sold through numbers are what actually matters. Before the launch of the PSP, Sony claimed that it would have a sell-through rate of 1,000,000 units on launch day. When the PSP failed to reach that number by about half, Sony still triumpantly claimed that they did in fact ship 1,000,000 units to store for launch. It was a slight difference, but one that was a 500,000ish sales figure (which is no bash, as a 500,000 first day sales of a console is pretty damn amazing no matter how you look at it, but Sony shouldn't have claimed the bigger numbers.)
If I recall correctly, user base is the numbers actually using it. So, (hypothetically, I was just looking at the May numbers on the PSP so I know this isn't right), if the PSP didn't sell another console, and 250,000 people traded them in or stopped playing them, the PSP would have a:
Shipped through rate of 1,000,000
Sell through rate of 500,000
Active user base of 250,000
That would mean a new game only had the potential to sell to the last number of people, which I bet is what Atari was claiming as to get the biggest tax-break possible.
:shrug: Who really knows how it did. I also wonder how well the 3DO did, considering they were the two big competitors at the time, and it seems like the 3DO, even with its crazy $799 price tag sold about an equal number of consoles.
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that AvP to Tempest ratio must be regional. I've worked at a mom/pop store for five years now, and it's the other way around. We get in many more Tempest than AvPs traded in. Then again, you have guys like jaysmith2000 who apparently have six copies of the game.Should start a poll. How many copies of AvP do you own?
To my knowledge installed base is your sell through. how could you have more active players than units sold through?
I don't think the AvP thing is regional, as I don't purchase anything in-state unless it happens to be from the eBay auction that I've seen. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've probably had close to 1000 Jaguar games pass through my hands now, and that is just what I've personally seen.
What I meant by that is not that you would have more active players, but that I think there is (something like) sell through and installed user base. "Sell through" is simply the number of consoles sold, period. Installed user base is the number of consoles being actively used and purchased for. Therefore, if a console has sold 5 million hardware units, but 3 million people are not playing them, the installed user base is 2 million people.
Again, not positive on that.
By the way, after checking my facts, here are the only Dreamcast games that sold more than 360,000 copies:
SONIC ADVENTURE
NFL 2K
CRAZY TAXI
NFL 2K1
NBA 2K1
NBA 2K
SOUL CALIBUR
READY 2 RUMBLE BOXING
SHENMUE
WORLD SER BASEBALL 2K1
SONIC ADVENTURE 2
VIRTUA TENNIS
That having been said, the top four games on that list sold nearly one million copies apeice, which is about a 20% sell-through rate for the approximate number of consoles sold in the US (5 Million.) I would assume that AvP sold at a higher percentage because there were not many killer apps for the Jaguar beyond it (Tempest, for as good as it is simply isn't a killer app), and it lasted a shorter period of time. If the Dreamcast had been cancelled six months after launch, I bet that Sonic Adventure would've had a 50% sell-through.
By the way, just of note Sonic Adenture is much rarer than the NFL and NBA games on the list now, even though it sold more. Soul Calibur and Sonic 2 still fetch a decent amount of money thanks to the fact that they are sought after, even though games like South Park Rally and ECW Anarchy Rulz sure as hell are rarer. It all comes down to the demand.
Also, my memory was incorrect about the amount of PSX games that reached over 360,000 in sales. The number is closer to 100.
And finally of note, the N64 had nearly a 35% sell through rate with Super Mario 64, which is quite superb noting that a lot of more mature gamers bought it for GoldenEye, which had about a 25% sell through rate. Both games have maintained a decent value.
All just things to think about. There really are no good answers to the Jaguar issue thanks to the fact that the Tramiels were definitely trying to get the most back from their investment at the end, and people couldn't trust them with what was going on. In the end, the world may never know.
But to come back to the original topic, I do think that it was overly harsh to say such a thing in VGC, and very odd.
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"It doesn't matter what I think? Now that is a bold, stupid statment. A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are just a few."
Where did I make such a statement? The Halo point was the fact that just because 95% of the people like something doesn't mean that the other five percent have to, but that doesn't mean the product is useless. Personally, I'm glad that you don't like it because the picture obviously shows it to be "horrible," but considering the fact that just about everyone who purchased it knowing what they would be getting and expecting that it better be damn good for the price was pleased. We offered a money-back guarantee, and no one that mattered -- IE the customers -- cared to send us the stick back for a refund. That speaks volumes, especially when the cost was around $75.00.
"I put my hand up to the expanded pic of the stick, and to play it "like an arcade", you'd have to curl a finger underneath the rest of your fingers to hit the lower button.
Hardly what I'd call an ergonomic let alone enjoyable experience."
That's fine. I'm sure that you also hate arcade games like X-Men ( http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=X&game_id=10496 ) and NBA Jam ( http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=N&game_id=8813 ), to name a few. Not too many arcade games had three buttons, and the two - one layout is one of the more comfortable ones. The way that you play this is to put your hand over the two main buttons (the two that are grouped together nearest the joystick) and hit the third ("special") button with the side of your hand.
It seemed to work pretty darn good for those games in the arcade.
"Inferring from what you stated this configuration was used to help cut down the size of the stick, which was done for cost concerns. that's fine, you did what you had to do. But can you honestly say that in a perfect world you'd want to have to use this contorted mess as opposed to the standard three-in-a-row configuration found in damn near every arcade cabinet layout?"
From a person who has friends that own dozens of arcade games themselves and who asked them before making the stick, from a person who worked in two different arcades and got to try out tons of different layouts and from someone who owns his own arcade games, I'm not kidding when I say that this is the preferred layout. I'd like to know how many of these other games actually have the "three in a row" line up you talked about. I can think of two offhand -- Bucky O'Hare and Ajax -- and neither was comfortable to play. And I know this because I worked with a Bucky O'Hare machine for a few years and owned an Ajax for two. And it wasn't just my opinion on that.
Most JAMMA arcade games had two button layouts, with the third being used only to be the button for starting the game. Tons of JAMMA machines are like this -- TMNT, Simpsons, Battletoads, etc. But we weren't going to cut out a button.
The other layout is essentially the upside down version of what is on the stick, with the third button closer to the other two but below it. This is used on arcade games like NBA Showtime, NFL Blitz and some of the others. The problem is that the buttons are placed very closely together, and if you are using your index finger on the first two buttons and your thumb on the lower button, it is much harder to react quickly to the button that is under your palm.
So anyway, coming from someone who dealt with the machines as well as a bunch of my arcade-machine owning friends, that was the best layout to go with.
Again, you may not like it. That's fine.
"If Halo's gameplay was as broken as the layout of your stick, I'd say you have a point."
Well, as usual the troll talks himself into a corner and then uses a personal attack to try to prove how he is superior. *sigh* It is really annoying trying to talk any sort of reasons with the likes of you.
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When Paper Mario dropped, not just did it drop online but also in-store. At the same time, EB offered a $20.00 rebate on Paper Mario if you bought it, effectively making it free (well, in-store credit wise.)
Once in a while they make an error, once in a while they are ahead of the curve. They dropped Dead or Alive Ultimate to $19.99, and it has stayed there. On the other hand, Burnout 3 dropped to $19.99 at Target two weeks before it did anywhere else when it went to Greatest Hits packaging. Maybe EB thought MP2 was going Platnium?
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You are arguing semantics. Yes, it's an exageration that there was zero consumer interest, but not by much. What was the total sales figures? I believe I've read 250,000. Pretty pathetic....
I agree that bits do not matter at this point, but it did matter then. Atari made the mistake of pushing the bit argument forward. (remember the elephant behind the tree ad?) Just about every ad extolled the greatness of Atari's 64 bit machine; however, the games revealed did not deliver on hat Atari was promising.
really, this whole thing is incredibly childish. If I stopped reading a mag simply because I liked something and they didn't, i wouldn't read any mags at all. The persecution complex has to go.
I'd argue that back during the lifespan of the Jaguar (and no one will ever have a figure on how many were actually sold, more on that in a second...), even 250,000 consoles sold wasn't a bad figure. Seeing the millions that are sold now skews our thinking, but the Jaguar probably sold in the same neighborhood as the Master System, Turbografx and so on. Not a success by any means, but not a horrendous failure.
And yes, part of Atari's failure was pushing their 64-bits when it actually didn't really mean anything. It was the beginning of the end of the 'bit-wars,' which are thankfully finally over.
Atari at one point claimed they had only sold 250,000 consoles. Supposedly though, for the initial test launch in New York and LA (or was it Dallas?) Atari sold 50,000 consoles in less than a week, and when the console was released at one point Atari stated that they figured they could sell 1,000,000 consoles within a year, which I would assume meant they sold at least 250,000 quite quickly.
I have heard the same sales figures about AvP as someone pointed out below -- somewhere around 360,000 copies.
The biggest problem was that the Tramiels quickly found that they made more money on the Jaguar if the console didn't sell than if it did. It is believed that they started claiming less and less sales to get a larger and larger tax break. Obviously, the console was also not selling well at the time, but it just doesn't add up.
I would assume that during the Jaguar's life, about 500,000 to 750,000 Jaguars were sold. After it died and Atari liquidated their inventory, I would bet that another 100,000 went into circulation, which would put their number between 600,000 and 850,000 sold.
And I really don't think that's exaggerating. When the Jaguar died, I saw three different Kay*Bee stores in different states (Wisconsin, Ohio and Illinois) that had at least 50 Jaguars in stock at blow out prices. I bet that most of them got the console and blew it out.
Not to derail myself, but the Sega CD was definitely a success. We can have that argument some other day though...
I doubt there were any that won't sold-through at liquidation prices. Otherwise, what would they do with the extra 100,000 to 200,000 consoles? Then again, it could have been a Tramiel tax-cut.
About sale figures...
360,000 might be good for 1993, but not for today... Even the "rather unspectacular" DS title Pokémon Dash sold over 323,741 already. Of course Pokemon has many fans, but even among pokemon fans the game can't have sold much, as it doesn't have much to do with other pokemon games and gets boring real fast.
Actually, 360,000 would still be good for today. While there are many more consoles in people's homes today, there are many more games to go to people's homes. If I recall correctly, only about 10 Dreamcast games sold more than 360,000 copies, and we all know the Dreamcast was more successful. I think there are about 25 Playstation games that sold more than 360,000 copies too.
Actually, from having so many games pass through my hands at the GOAT Store, Cybermorph is obviously the most common, but I doubt has an actual number sold associated with it. As for Tempest, it really isn't that common. It's just that there are still boxes of unopened copies of the game out there. Alien Vs. Predator there isn't. But I get three used AvP games for every one Tempest. The difference is that AvP was based on a great license and is well-known for being a Jaguar exclusive. People feel that the other versions of Tempest can step in, or don't bother with it.
Atari probably had its sales records posted like the others, but it was probably with one of the expensive reports (the current sales ones that are official cost something like $2000 per copy... but people get ahold of them and illegally post them to the web.) It is probably a combo of them not being common due to price and Atari not posting their own sales figures because it wasn't anywhere near as impressive as what the SNES and Genesis were doing.
And while the SNES and Genesis were selling millions and millions of units, they also had a lot more games, so except the blockbusters (Sonic's, Mario's, Donkey Kong Country's, etc.) 360,000 would still be exceptional.
People typically don't give it up. I have an Atari annual report from either 1994 or 1995 where they come right out and say that ALIEN VS. PREDATOR is the best selling Jaguar game so far ... even over Tempest 2000. I agree that 360,000 copies is a stretch ... perhaps Rebellion was inflating the number.
I doubt Rebellion was, but Atari very well could have been... although it would have been stupid for Atari to inflate the numbers of a game sold like that if they didn't have enough consoles sold to support it. Someone would have caught them on that.
Ok, back to topic. Let's talk Jag
I can not believe that AvP sold better than T2k. Or it was like it is with music charts... Some artists buy their own music to get a higher position in the charts.
I mean, almost every Jag fan has T2k. Many still search AvP and pay high prices for it. So it can't be that AvP sold more. Even if people want to keep it and don't sell it, that doesn't explain it. There are maybe a few hundread Jag fans remaining, maybe even over one thousand if you count every single one worldwide, even those without internet connection. But what happened to all the other carts? Did people throw them away? Bury them in the desert?
Atari said a lot of things to promote the Jag, maybe those sale figures weren't "final". Even though that is illegal I think, or isn't it?
As I mentioned above, AvP is much more common. Besides that, it is the game that people who aren't Jaguar fans want to play and keep. When I mentioned I had a Jaguar at work, a bunch of people asked me if I had Alien Vs. Predator, and what it was like. No one asked about Tempest.
That also explains why it is worth more online.
Only one thing with this -- Installed userbase does not mean active userbase, if I recall correctly. Perhaps, by that point in time when the Jag advertising was essentially over and the boat was nearly sunk as the final rats jumped overboard, that there were only 150,000 active Jaguar users.
And then this figure would help that big tax-break.
The Jaguar numbers just don't add up. I'm not saying I'm sure so many were sold, but at the same time I don't think that it was as low as 150,000.
Good point. One data point it is missing is how many Jaguars were sold after market at liquidation prices. Right after the Tramiels shut down operations, they (and then JTS) started selling Jaguar units, games and peripherals for firesale prices. My hypothesis is the total number of Jaguar units sold is probably quite a bit highher than 150K, but many of those folks likely bought at $20-$50 instead of $150-$250 when Atari unleashed Jaguar stuff to the clearance houses.
I would believe that at least half of the total number of consoles sold were at the $150 price point or lower. While it had a great start, it just didn't go over so well. Atari had consumer interest for a short period of time before Donkey Kong Country came and stole all of it, no matter how many consoles were really sold.
Okay Saturn, since I was "childish" by stating that the Xbox was 32 bit, could you please point me to an article stating that the Xbox is not 32-bit, and that the measure of "bits" in a console is a much better way to determine the power it has... much better than using other specs like processor speed or RAM size?
Last I checked, it was a fact that bits have nothing to do with the power of a system -- as the Jaguar proved first even though it _is_ 64-bit, and the Xbox proves currently because it _is_ 32-bit.
Grow up.
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I didn't really get pissed at you, I just defend things that I have personally done from getting bashed by people for no reason.
You have to bash everything that anyone has ever done for the Jaguar community, as well as the Jaguar, yet you are bored enough to hang out on these boards all the time. You are a worthless poster and do not add anything to any of the discussions on this board.
jesusc started this when he said:
"I said decent stick. Whilst what you showed in the pic surely could be indentified as a stick it hardly looks decent."
It doesn't matter what you think, but looking at a picture of a joystick and claiming that a stick like that "hardly looks decent" is a pretty bold, stupid statement. A quick example: Most people think that Halo is an awesome game. I think it isn't very good at all.... but I don't go onto Halo message boards, claim that "there are no good FPS games for the Xbox" and then when someone shows me Halo state that "Halo hardly looks like a decent FPS."
Since jesusc states he doesn't like it, you (saturn) have to go and back him up, so you state:
"But it's also square and the buttons apear to be on the side of the stick."
Take another look at the picture here - http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...e=post&id=36278
Where do you see anything resembling buttons on the side of the stick? All five fact buttons are clearly seen on the top of the joystick.
Then, from post #34...
"Fine it's square (which does not feel good i dont care what you say)"
I pointed out the fact that almost every joystick made for any system ever is in a square format.
"and it's very thick."
An issue of the components. Real components are thick. Joysticks do not often use real components thanks to the higher cost and size issues. Those joysticks were specifically made to be 100% real arcade sticks, which also made their price points rather high.
"Also the button's are on the side not the side side the side of the top."
I didn't even try to understand what you meant by the "button's were on the side not the side side the side of the top"?
The button layout of the joystick was based on actual arcade machines, so if you don't like how a lot of three-butotned arcade games are laid out, there isn't much I can do. If you hate the standard configuration of arcade machines, I doubt you'd ever like any joystick intended to mimic them.
Now, from post #37:
"So in saying i hate square stick's that was another punch at the jaguar? And you act as if stick's that are not square are not real stick's."
Hmmmm... When I stated that "you apparently don't like any joysticks in general," how was I implying that you were just doing another sucker punch at the Jaguar? If you *liked* lots of other joysticks, and were just saying this one sucked then I would believe that you were taking another sucker punch just to take another sucker punch. If you like other joysticks though, you are basically using the square argument as a "I can't think of a better reason..."
The Atari 2600 joystick, NES Advantage, SNES Super Advantage, Saturn arcade joystick (from Sega), HORI Dreamcast joystick and most of the other popular joysticks were all in square form. I really don't see one reason why any of the above joysticks are a horrible thing just because of that...
"There are plenty of non square responsive sticks out there even if they dont use real arcade parts. Hell a lot of them are thin too!"
The point of this joystick, as I've pointed out was to be an arcade joystick. It does that better than these other joysticks you're stating are so much better than it. People who bought it knew that it was intended to be an arcade type of joystick,
"I never said it was inferior i said it looked hard to use. And i take fan boy's opinion's with a grain of salt. So why would any one respect mine? Hmm....well for starters im not a fan boy."
I'd argue that you just as bad as a fany boy. People that cannot see the valid opinions of others are basically "anti-fan boys". If you wanted to bash the joystick for valid reasons, I would love to hear them, as it would be something I would take into consideration if I ever made them again. And there are some valid criticisms, of which I'll get into in a little while...
But anywho, if you want people to care about your opinion, you should either not reply to a message when you don't know anything about it, or try to be objective and state your reasons. I am objective when others are, but I will always defend myself, the GOAT Store and the products that I helped develop from stupid criticism that is nothing more than people complaining for no reason, which until this point sums up your side.
"I never bash just to bash if i don't like a game or system i have a reason for it. And for the most part they are pretty valid"
Your reason was because jesusc said something, and you felt you had to back him up. Your complaints are not valid with the context they were in.
Now, jesusc said in post 39:
"perhaps I should ammend my original statement.
When I said decent, I wasn't refering to quality of craftmanship, as that is impossible to tell from a picture.
I meant decent as in ease of use. I'm sure that stick is of the highest of quality (btw, who made it?), but as I stated right below the decent comment, the layout looks awful. The button arrangement is awkward and based on the size comparison to the jag controller, it seems as though it would be very cramped."
Now, this is a much more clearly defined "issue" with the joystick, and one that I can actually undestand. The fact that the Jaguar controller was designed with the buttons in a line and the joystick was not means that if you wanted the joystick to be the same, it wouldn't work so well. As I pointed out before however, the configuration was based on actual arcade machines, down to the measurements of how far apart the buttons are. The only thing that was added was the Start and Select button, which are located above the joystick in not-the-best-place. It would have been better if the plastic housing was better and the start / select buttons could have been spread out a little more.
The buttons themselves however are large enough to not be an issue with their spacing. The way to play with that sort of arrangement is to put your right hand over the two lower buttons and hit the upper button (C, if I recall correctly) with the non-thumb side of your hand.
Personally, I love this arrangement for the controllers, but again -- if you don't like arcade games, it is a valid concern.
On top of that, the other problems that the joystick has that I know of or have heard are as follows:
- the cord tends to be loose.
- once in a great while, the buttons stop responding. Usually, this is from a connector being pulled off inside the joystick housing. We believe we stopped that problem with our future revisions.
- the first design of the joystick (not the one pictured) is cramped. We wanted to make it for as cheap as possible, and we saved like $5.00 on the housing by going one step smaller. It wasn't worth it.
- it doesn't have buttons
If you would like to expand on one of those, go ahead. But don't bash stuff just because you feel like bashing something. Someone did work very hard on putting it together. I'm all for constructive criticism and actually love getting it, but I can't stand stupidity.
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...oh yes...
And the fact that *real arcade components* are much thicker then the fake ones they put in the cheap joysticks.
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Fine it's square (which does not feel good i dont care what you say) and it's very think. Also the button's are on the side not the side side the side of the top. They are in more of an odd up and down lay out rather then a left to right. And i typed this after talking a good look at the stick.Well, even if you talked a good look at the stick, you apparently don't like any joysticks in general, so you -- a known Jaguar hater -- claiming that the stick is obviously inferior to other joysticks and expecting anyone on here to accept your opinions on it is stupid. You've proven before that you have no respect for people's opinions. Why should anyone here have respect for yours?
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The problem is that people still equate bits to power.
The frickin' Xbox is 32 bit.
The Jaguar -- by definition can pass a 64-bit command, making it a 64-bit machine. That doesn't mean a Jaguar game should look better than an Xbox game though.
Also, zero consumer interest is wrong -- the Jag sold out in test markets and was trumpted as the next big thing for a little while... It died out because Atari didn't have the game support for a long time, and by the time they started to get it, Nintendo pulled out Donkey Kong Country and essentially claimed that the SNES was as powerful as the Jag because DKC looked as good as any Jaguar game (which is mostly true.) Once that happened, consumers became even more enamored with the SNES and left the Jaguar for good.
And inifintely bad games is not really true either.
It is very strange to me that in a magazine that is usually so well thought out and written that these errors could be made. I'm not expecting anyone to say the Jaguar was great -- but to blow it off as a system that never had interested anyone is going a little far.
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It's hard to imagine Baldies or Alien Vs. Predator without the keypad. Besides, there have been a few rotary controllers (do those not count as third party?), so the Jag isn't completely bereft. No controller seems to be universally liked, though, and I personally find the normal Jag controller feels and works pretty good.All of the joysticks / rotaries / etc. that have been released have cannabilized prior Jaggy parts. By my rules:
- Third Party = New product released during the time the console is still relevant (within 10 years of release, give or take) and is made with only it's own parts.
- Homebrew = New product that is released either a long time after support for the console has ceased when it is only a collectable, *and/or* an item that had to cannibalize existing products to create the new one.
So, by that it doesn't have any new ones.
Also, while it would be hard to imagine Baldies or AvP (or Iron Soldier, or DOOM, etc) without the buttons, how hard would it be to imagine Raiden, or Ultra Vortek, or Kasumi Ninja, or Tempest 2000, or Zool 2, or Zoop without the buttons? Not too hard at all. Add to that the fact that a lot of the multiplayer games didn't take advantage of the keypad (DOOM is the only exception above) and it would make sense for me for someone to release a budget third party controller for the Jaguar that would've stripped it of the keypad... intended for second players.
Personally, I *adore* the Logitech wireless ones. They are expensive though at $50 a pop. If you're going for straight budget, there are some cheaper controllers... HipGear, if I recall correctly, that are $9.99 new at Blockbuster video (or they were when I bought them) and they are about 95% identical to the Controller S... just with a little cheaper plastic and rubber buttons for the Start / Back buttons. I like both of those options, and either way I think you're a winner
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Do you even look at the pictures when you are replying? It is extremely easy to see that all five of the face buttons are on the top of the joystick in question.
And the NES Advantage was square... and so was the SNES Super Advantage. And the HORI stick for the Dreamcast (which might I add is the only multi-platform classic joystick to come close to using pure arcade parts). And so are most of the HUGE current-gen arcade joysticks.
We're not talking about a controller here. We're talking about a joystick. And that's a damn fine joystick, and much better than just about all of the crap that I have found on the market. I never use joysticks on consoles because they don't have the right feel, although I LOVE playing arcade games. That one has the feel.
If you want to bash it, you can come up with other reasons than "It's square."
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Level 64 can definitely be done. It is one of the really hard levels that Minter purposely made to try to stop people at certain points. If you think it's difficult, beat the game and then try it with the slower shots! Insane!
And yes... I've managed to do that
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Last I've seen, a Catbox still sells for $200+ on eBay. I was very lucky to get two of my three for $75.00, and the third for $100. If I recall correctly, I still have all of their packaging.
I would personally offer $150 if you're really interested in it. Seeing as how you did that, I think that you're probably pretty good to go
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Actually, I can pretty much guarantee that the particular joystick in question is of a much higher quality than any joystick that you'll be finding for the Sega Genesis. Real arcade components > mass produced knock offs.
The drawback of that joystick is it only has three buttons, but for the most part that is all that you need.
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Sweeeeeeet.
I hope it is still this price when I get home tonight. I've been wanting to snag it for a long, long time.
Anyone know if the price is the same at the brick and mortar stores too?
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Sorry to be so slow on all the PMs that I got. I should have replied to everyone now. If not, please PM me again and I will
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Yup, we've got them
Thanks again, SD They aren't up on the site yet, but they should be within the next couple weeks. If anyone wants to pick one up before then, PM me or email me and I can hook you up
I'm also hoping to get time next week to sit down with one and write up a review for the Atari Times. I still need to inform Greg of that though
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Jag bashing in VGC issue #3 mag...
in Atari Jaguar
Posted
Actually, the Xbox's graphics processor is built on NVidia GeForce 4 technology, which was all 32-bit graphics cards. Why does it look better than the Jaguar? Well:
The XBox'x CPU runs at 733 MHz (again, 32-bit). For comparison, the Playstation 2 runs at 294.912 MHz and the Gamecube runs at 485 MHz. The Xbox's graphics processor is a 233 MHz card running on NVidia tech. The PS2's graphics chip runs at 147.456 MHz. The GameCube's graphics chip funs at 162 MHz. If I recall correctly, both the PS2 and GameCube's graphics chips are 128-bit, although it may only be the GameCube that is.
As a note, the Dreamcast did in fact have a 128 bit processor at its core. But then of course it was running at 200 MHz, while its graphics processor ran at only 100 MHz.
The Jaguar on the other hand had Tom (the graphics chip) running at a blazing 26.591 MHz (although it was 64 bit), and Jerry running at the insane speed of about 26.6 MHz. The 68000 ran at the slowest speed of 13.295 MHz.
So, by taking this all and looking at it - bits really don't mean a damn, especially in this day and age. It was all a marketing scheme -- one that worked so well, you have to dig DAMN hard to find info about the bits in the current consoles since they want to make you believe they are SO powerful without referring to something stupid like that.