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Tomb Raider & Swagman for the Jag

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I wouldn't say the Saturn is MUCH better at 2-D...Yes, it is better, but really, not by that much.

 

Take a look at the 2-D Capcom/SNK fighting games on the Saturn, and then take a look at their PSX counterparts (if they have one). Night and day difference. Heck, the PSX version of Marvel vs. Capcom doesn't even have the tag team mode because the PSX couldn't handle it (although I think that was due to RAM issues more than processor issues). I also don't think games like Radient Silvergun or the DonPachi series would look nearly as good on the PSX.

 

Tempest

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I wouldn't say the Saturn is MUCH better at 2-D...Yes, it is better, but really, not by that much.

 

Take a look at the 2-D Capcom/SNK fighting games on the Saturn, and then take a look at their PSX counterparts (if they have one). Night and day difference. Heck, the PSX version of Marvel vs. Capcom doesn't even have the tag team mode because the PSX couldn't handle it (although I think that was due to RAM issues more than processor issues). I also don't think games like Radient Silvergun or the DonPachi series would look nearly as good on the PSX.

 

Tempest

 

But Gradius Gaiden is a great 2D shooter.

Radiant Silvergun is not THAT good. I bought it to know whats all the fuss about and its good but not that great. This goes for gfx too.

Gradius Gaiden is way better and I think Raiden Project is better than Radiant too.

Overall I think they are pretty par on 2D with a slight edge for the PSX because it can do transparent effects. I can't help, but the rasterized effects on the Saturn look very ugly.

Edited by agradeneu

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I don't know....if you look at the tech specs for both of them they are pretty close. PS has faster procs but the Saturn has more RAM (especially with the RAM cart). If you look at the Saturns last games they had very good graphics like Sonic R. Easily on par with the best PS graphics.

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I honestly don't understand why everyone thinks that Tomb Raider is not doable on the Jaguar. It was designed for 60 MHz PCs with 8 MBs of RAM, and used a 100% software-based rendering engine. (A rather terrible one at that.) The background rarely showed more than 10-20 polys, with a disproportionate number of the polys pushed being used by Lara and the attacking animals.

 

If the 3D Engine were reprogrammed to take advantage of the Jaguar's 3D features (no matter how weak they were in comparison to the PSX), I see little to no reason why Tomb Raider couldn't have run on the Jag. And it would have looked just as good as the straight-up PSX port.

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BA Toshinden´s hardly a showstopper for either console, but yes, the Saturn version is the worst of the two.

 

Toshinden was jaw-droppingly gorgeous in 1995... ;) It's still not bad looking at all either.

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I wouldn't say the Saturn is MUCH better at 2-D...Yes, it is better, but really, not by that much.

 

Take a look at the 2-D Capcom/SNK fighting games on the Saturn, and then take a look at their PSX counterparts (if they have one). Night and day difference. Heck, the PSX version of Marvel vs. Capcom doesn't even have the tag team mode because the PSX couldn't handle it (although I think that was due to RAM issues more than processor issues). I also don't think games like Radient Silvergun or the DonPachi series would look nearly as good on the PSX.

 

Tempest

 

Not night and day in my opinion...To me, the PlayStation has a more significant edge in graphics quality for 3D games than the Saturn has over the PlayStation in 2D games... I also wonder what the hell Sega was thinking now bringing over some A+ Japanese Saturn games... Pretty retarded of them.

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If the 3D Engine were reprogrammed to take advantage of the Jaguar's 3D features (no matter how weak they were in comparison to the PSX), I see little to no reason why Tomb Raider couldn't have run on the Jag. And it would have looked just as good as the straight-up PSX port.

 

Considering the Saturn port didn't look as good as the PS1 port - even though Core were all but Saturn specialists - I seriously doubt the Jaguar could have come anywhere near even the Saturn port. Both of those versions of Tomb Raider relied on true 3D hardware, so it would have been interesting to see Tomb Raider on the Jaguar using the software-based style rendering engine from the PC, but like others, based on what's been done 3D-wise on the Jaguar in actual fact, I seriously doubt it would be practical without significant omissions and modifications.

 

I think the big problem with playing the hypothetical game and wondering if anything was possible on the Jaguar, is that we have a very limited pool of software that truly showcases what the hardware is capable of when programmed well. Regardless, I think the worst thing that happened to the Jaguar (OK, throw lack of developer support in there) - and to a lesser degree the Saturn - is the fact that 3D versus 2D really was so important and the hardware was used for things it really wasn't originally designed for. While the Jaguar may have tanked even sooner, if development was kept on a strictly 2D sprite-based basis, we would have had a lot better software for it.

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Gradius Gaiden is way better [...than Radiant Silvergun...]and I think Raiden Project is better than Radiant too.

 

Not even close.

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Considering the Saturn port didn't look as good as the PS1 port - even though Core were all but Saturn specialists - I seriously doubt the Jaguar could have come anywhere near even the Saturn port.

 

Saturn Tomb Raider wasn´t a port, was it? I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was in fact the "first" version to hit the streets.

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I also wonder what the hell Sega was thinking now bringing over some A+ Japanese Saturn games... Pretty retarded of them.

 

What does the above mean?

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I don't know....if you look at the tech specs for both of them they are pretty close. PS has faster procs but the Saturn has more RAM (especially with the RAM cart). If you look at the Saturns last games they had very good graphics like Sonic R. Easily on par with the best PS graphics.

 

Both Sonic R and another latecomer, Burning Rangers, proved that the Saturn could in fact accomplish things like transparency etc. Had the Saturn not "died" sometime during 1998, I´m sure we´d see games on the Saturn that could take on the best the PSX had to offer, even in 2000/2001.

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Considering the Saturn port didn't look as good as the PS1 port - even though Core were all but Saturn specialists - I seriously doubt the Jaguar could have come anywhere near even the Saturn port.

 

Saturn Tomb Raider wasn´t a port, was it? I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was in fact the "first" version to hit the streets.

 

I'm almost certain the PC version was first. I remember it was a big deal at the time that the developers of both Tomb Raider and Super Mario 64 had attacked the same 3D camera problem in slightly different ways, independently but at the same time coming up with the first 3D third person adventure-style games.

 

I also remember reading that the Saturn version lacked the transparencies of the PS1 version, so it does make you think if one had features the other didn't - even though it's "built-in" on the PS1 and requires a software trick to make happen on the Saturn - that the Saturn would be the port. Still, with Core at the helm, I wouldn't be surprised if the Saturn version was started first over the PS1 version.

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Considering the Saturn port didn't look as good as the PS1 port - even though Core were all but Saturn specialists - I seriously doubt the Jaguar could have come anywhere near even the Saturn port.

I've never used the Saturn version, so take what I say with a grain of salt. However, comparing the screenshots between the two revisions, are you sure that the problem isn't that Tomb Raider looks too good on the Saturn? Looking at the screenies, it looks like you can pick out way too much detail for such low resolution textures and models. The result is that the poor quality of the engine stands out more than it does on the PSX.

 

It's basically the same problem as with HDTVs. People hook up their HD sets and are horrified at the picture they get. In many ways it's actually worse than the SDTVs they used before. The SDTVs may have been blurry, but that blurriness hid the poor quality of the picture. As a result, they go out and spend insane amounts of $$$ on getting high quality cables and what-not just to increase the quality of the picture.

 

Again, I've never played it on the Saturn, so I don't know for certain. But it certainly doesn't make sense that the Saturn would show a worse picture than the antiquated PC version.

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One important FACT here that has been forgotten (I have mentioned it before) is that screenshots of the Jaguar Tomb Raider (albeit a very early version) were shown along side Soulstar, Swagman and BC Racers in a pull out supplement on Core games that was in Edge magazine back in the day over here. While the rest were shown/listed as multiple formats Tomb Raider just said Jaguar CD: IT WAS 3D, IT WAS TEXTURED (mostly) and looked very promising (the screenshots did not include muxh background)

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One important FACT here that has been forgotten (I have mentioned it before) is that screenshots of the Jaguar Tomb Raider (albeit a very early version) were shown along side Soulstar, Swagman and BC Racers in a pull out supplement on Core games that was in Edge magazine back in the day over here. While the rest were shown/listed as multiple formats Tomb Raider just said Jaguar CD: IT WAS 3D, IT WAS TEXTURED (mostly) and looked very promising (the screenshots did not include muxh background)

Which issue was that?? I think we'd all be interested in seeing a scan of that.

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Gradius Gaiden is way better [...than Radiant Silvergun...]and I think Raiden Project is better than Radiant too.

 

Not even close.

 

Gradius and Raiden are both Top shooters and in the same class technically and gameplaywise, no doubt about that. :cool:

 

There are several things I don't like about Radiant:

 

- The gfx are good, but a bit pixelated and the sprites are pretty average. THe 3d animated backgrounds are defeintely great though.

- The artwork is average, enemy design is a bit bland.

- Stages are way too short, boss battles are too long and tiresome. This is common with many modern shoot 'em ups. That is why I prefer old school shooting.

- the RPG like weapon upgrade approach does not pay off through the short stages, with underwhelming effect on gameplay.

It simply does not match the nature of shooting games IMO.

 

 

Shoot 'em ups better than Radiant IMO:

 

- Raiden II (PSX)

- Gradius Gaiden (played the PSP collection)

- R-Type Delta (PSX)

- Thunderforce V (SAT)

- Terra Diver (SAT)

Edited by agradeneu

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I also wonder what the hell Sega was thinking now bringing over some A+ Japanese Saturn games... Pretty retarded of them.

 

What does the above mean?

 

............meaning why didn't Sega bring over games like Radient Silvergun etc etc...

 

* OH...ooops...I meant to say, "I also wonder what the hell Sega was thinking 'by N O T' bringing over some A+ Japanese Saturn games......................* :D

Edited by kevincal

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the jaguar is really far from having the 3D capabilities of the psx (because there is no 3D chip at all), even the saturn version of TR is lower than the psx version.

 

But given enough time and ressources, don´t you think it would be possible for a highly competent team of programmers to do something like Tomb Raider on the Jaguar? They´d have to take the long road and find ways around it without custom 3D chips, but still I think it would be doable.

 

The Saturn could, at times, run circles around the PSX when programmed properly. But yes, Tomb Raider on the Saturn isn´t totally on par with the PSX version in some areas, which I believe I read somewhere, is due to its hardware being quadrilaterally-based as opposed to the PSX´s triangular-based hardware.

 

No.

Even with proper programming, the Saturn hardly can touch the PSX. Sega had one of the best coders, Am2, working on the Saturn and they failed to give the Saturn the edge it needed against the PSX. It's decent, but the PSX can do so much more than the Saturn.

-better resolution

-runnning in 16 bit

-transparent polygons and effects

-multi colored lighting, multiple light sources, specular highlights etc.

 

However the Saturn is a good machine for 2D and many believe it beats the PSX in that category.

 

 

I disagree.

 

The PSX is easy to program and got pushed to its maximum capabilities. The Saturn is a nightmare to program and died far too early before its true power was tapped. Have you seen the videos for Shenmue for the Saturn? Amazing. They even got the SOUND CHIP to help out with the graphics (a very powerful at-the-time Yamaha chip) Their basic designs are so completely different that it's impossible to call one a clear overall winner in the hardware department. One dedicated CPU with a math co-processor and a straight-forward sound chip (PSX) just does not compare on paper to the Saturn's two general-purpose CPU's sharing one bus, two dedicated (but complicated) GPU's, a very high-end sound chip, and a bunch of other chips to make the whole mess work together.

 

Software? Not so much. The PSX wins by a landslide but that doesn't mean the Saturn doesn't have dozens and dozens of awesome games that were either system exclsuives or better than their PSX counterparts (Tomb Raider not being one of them.)

 

The PSX is better than the Saturn in some respects but the two machines are far more equal than most people realize. The Saturn is superior to the PSX in some areas (and not just 2-D.)

 

And the Saturn has higher resolution so scratch that from your list.

 

And I think the Jaguar could have done a decent port of Tomb Raider given the time, effort, and expertise.

Edited by fishsandwich

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The Jaguar could do Tomb Raider. It just wouldn't look like the PSX version. It would quite a few less textures at least.

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