Does anybody knows something about NATIVE??

[Garvin]

Heh, yeah, no sound effects yet. I've looked at some, but I'm kinda torn on what sounds to use. But I always plan ahead when programming and I've already reserved space in RAM for them. At the size they are I can have quite a few of them and not have to take anything out.

 

I'm still wrestling with the idea of using redbook audio during a level or running the sound through an internal music player. So the music jumps between the two when I'm working on the game. The biggest problem is that I don't have any routines to merge the CD audio with sound effects yet. That's something I'll get to at some point.

 

 

-Garvin

[Thunderbird]

Merging Redbook with DSP audio can be a pain. Especially if you're currently just passing the redbook audio through the DSP and not actually interrupting on it.

 

If you use redbook for the music, then you preclude the ability to send more graphics data to the Jag in real-time, unless you figure out a way to interleave it with redbook audio on the disk.

[Paolo]

Removed:

-Money system.  It was too large to keep in and in order to keep all graphics in, I had to sack something.

-objects are not packed and unpacked during a level

 

-Garvin

 

So we won't be able to buy extra things? Or there will be another system to get extra power between the levels?

 

How is a good thing that the objects are not packed and unpacked?

 

Bye!

[Thunderbird]

I hate games where you have to earn money to upgrade. I'm glad that's gone.

 

Taking out the unpack code is how you free the DSP up to play sound.

[Paolo]

You're right! And it's also a bit strange that in the middle of a battle you think at money

However, there had been an old ST game (I think blood money) where your aim WAS to collect as more money you could to get powerups, and it was a nice game...

 

About unpacking: what was the benefit of packing, then? Was it for making room for more graphics, or what?

 

Regards

[Tyrant]

Not to mention Xenon2's "RealCash" and the oh so cute shopkeeper hehe, now that was a fun game, but yeah cash is a strange way to play a game.

 

I only just played the demo today (my big box arrived, JagCD, DevJag and Alpine, ProtSE and the native demo disk). I must say Im very impressed with the graphics on the old version, and the overall speed of it, I cant wait to see the finished version.

 

One ever so slightly off topic question: Does one actually need the CD dev kit / emulator to develop cd games or can it realisticly be done with a bypass cart and a stack load of cdr's?

[Garvin]

Hello gang.

 

For this type of game, I didn't think the money system was that important. Sure, being able to buy upgrades is cool and all, but I couldn't see the value. And when it came time for things to be eliminated in order to make room for the actual game, I felt like it was one of the things that could be removed without changing the dynamic of the game. Honestly, when you play the final version, I don't think anyone is going to miss it.

 

 

About unpacking: what was the benefit of packing, then? Was it for making room for more graphics, or what?

 

The benefit was that it allowed them to store a good chunk of the level in memory. Since the original was a Jagserver game, they didn't have any real external storage devices to hold the data. And even doing it the way they did, they still weren't able to put the last part of the game in. Though, being truthful, they probably could have had more space if they could have found a better way to script the level. Heh, but that's another story. Unfortunately, by packing the graphics they needed the DSP to do the unpacking. Because of this, there isn't any sound to the game. If they would have put the game on CD and left the packing in, perhaps they could have used redbook audio to run music, but sound effects would have been a problem.

 

 

One ever so slightly off topic question: Does one actually need the CD dev kit / emulator to develop cd games or can it realisticly be done with a bypass cart and a stack load of cdr's?

 

Yes. You'll be wasting a lot of CD-Rs, though. What I do is develope sections on cart. and when I get them debugged, I add CD reading code to it and burn a CD to see if it runs. Saves a WHOLE lot of time and money that way. The emulator is just a nice way of doing it without having to burn a bunch of CDs.

 

 

Merging Redbook with DSP audio can be a pain. Especially if you're currently just passing the redbook audio through the DSP and not actually interrupting on it.

 

If you use redbook for the music, then you preclude the ability to send more graphics data to the Jag in real-time, unless you figure out a way to interleave it with redbook audio on the disk.

 

Well, at the moment, I'm just running the Redbook without interrupting. This is easier because it doesn't require any processing outside of adjusting the volume. I'm sure this will all change as I get further along in production. For right now, I only use redbook audio when no loading is going to happen. Mainly at title screens, and the first section of Native with the credits.

 

In the game, I find that MODs work better because I didn't load the whole level in and I'm trying to load what's left of the level without a break in the game. Unfortunately, because of the graphic load of the game, sometimes the MOD slows down. That's something I'll end up fixing also.

 

 

-Garvin

[AwfullyJohnToday]

Here is some good information on Native if you are still wondering about it...

 

Duranik is a very talented man from Germany, some problems are that I am assuming Garvin doesn't know German, therefore he doesn't understand any of the comments in the code... Oh well... However, Duranik has done a lot of work on video games and has done top-notch work, including all the FMV for the PSX Version of Iron Soldier(which I have to admit, the textures win me over!)

 

And there are some screenshots, I think more than availible at Jagu-Dome.

 

http://www.cyberroach.com/jaguarcd/html/native.htm

 

 

Game is not listed in the Atari Dealer Price List Q3/1995.

In early 1999 Ville Järvi wanted to try to bring Duranik's Native back to life by collecting info on the game, looking for possibilities to get it finished and gathering a development team. He called this project Native Reborn. Ville had previous experience in the game development process, as he had been working with a few other games (none Jag-related) in the past, but unfortunately none of the team members had previous experience on Jaguar developing except for the main programmer.

At first everything went fine, they got pretty far in the planning stage, made some new graphics and the head programmer played with the code, but soon they noticed the difficulties of the process - only one programmer who had enough knowledge of the Jaguar and on the top of that he was also very busy with other things. Also, many team members, as had been feared, lost interest in the project after they realized how much time it would take to finish Native. So in the end it was pretty much Ville, the main coder and a couple of other guys. They also noticed upon closer investigation that Native was in a lot earlier stage than they had thought, and soon realized they had to give up the project because of the lack of people interested in helping out, lack of time and lack of knowledge. Ville had in mind some thoughts of recreating the game for Lynx or GameBoy Color (he stated that the GBC is a lot easier platform to develop on than the Jaguar), but it would have been pointless. Native may yet get another chance: Carl Forhan has expressed some interest in looking at Native.

(From email conversation with Ville Järvi)

 

This demo does not contain sounds, level bosses, and the Native extra weapon system due the low amount of available work RAM. Remember: It is not possible to reload data with the current version of the Jag-Server software, therefore we have to store all the compressed Native data in memory. We have to divide the memory into 1 MB work RAM and 1 MB compressed data. It was simply not possible to include more data like all the sounds and the 2 level bosses. Sorry.

Native is a horizontal 2D shoot'em up. Press the A, B, or C button to get started.

Extra Weapons (not included in the demo!) Native does contain two combined extra weapon systems. Some of the destroyed enemies leave a coin or a star. Collect the money to buy extra weapons in the shop in the middle of each level. You can buy for example a satellite, lives, energy etc... The star is something different. It contains a letter like for example a "O" or "X". Every letter picked up will transform your ship completely. There exist five different classes of ships. If you pick up the same letter again you will power up the shot power of your ship (again 5 different power classes for each ship).

Some Technical Details: 60 FPS (50 Hz PAL is not supported in the demo), 16 Bit CrY mode, Up to 4 layers of parallax scrolling, Transparency and lighting effects, Up to 120 sprites (OP-Objects) on-screen, Scaling effects (OP), Real time data decrunch (DSP), Game engine running completely on the GPU, Rotation effects (not included in demo - not enough work RAM).

Roland Graf - Coding, Johannes Graf - All graphics - Level design, Gordon Gibson - ICE decrunch routine

We don't have a publisher for Native yet. If we don't find a solution in the next 4 weeks we will stop any work on this game. As you can see on the demo size it is not possible to make a 16 MBit (2 MByte) cartridge out of this game. The complete level with the 2 bosses and FX samples will take about 1.6 MByte (and still does not contain any music). We are using a good compression algorithm but 2D graphics do need a lot of memory. The only solution is a CD version but we don't have a CD-devkit.

Release date: Oct 24 1997

(JEO 2/1)

 

Q: As far as I understand, your primary problem is that you didn't have (or couldn't get) a CD-DevKit - right??

A: Right, that was our problem. In the meantime we could probably get one, however we want possibly to do something quite different which has nothing to do with the Jaguar anymore. If that works, we would have no more time to finish Native for the Jaguar.

Q: Or do you need financial support? (for what?)

A: No.

(JEO 2/1)

 

Related links:

http://members.aol.com/duranik/index.htm  http://personal.inet.fi/cool/villepiia/native/

 

There is also video footage...

[AwfullyJohnToday]

BTW. Garvin, why did you change the intro video? I liked that video, VERY High quality work there...

 

You changed too much. I was really looking foward to Native, maybe done by Carl or Thunderbird, but your work has already disappointed me. I have not been impressed at all by any of your work for the jaguar, or video games in general. You pick something up, you look at it, you put some sugar on top and give it to the ants. When have you actually finished anything? You sound like a college student to me, no work ethic.

 

It is my personal opinion that Duranik's vision for Native was so great and so inspirational that what you have done to Native is horribly in the wrong direction. He is a much greater programmer.

 

But that's just my personal opinion. No offense targetted.

[+Sauron]

I guess the trolls from JI2 are finally making their way over here...

[Thunderbird]

I guess the trolls from JI2 are finally making their way over here...

 

You can thank Lars for telling them where we went...

[Tempest]

Well thankfully Al and Alex won't put up with that crap. I don't think we'll be hear much more from Johnny any time soon.

 

Tempest

[Starcat]

BTW. Garvin, why did you change the intro video? I liked that video, VERY High quality work there...

 

Yes, it was cool.

 

You changed too much. I was really looking foward to Native, maybe done by Carl or Thunderbird, but your work has already disappointed me.

 

I think only Duranik could finish Native. Unimportant who else would do it, it wouldn't be the same.

 

It is my personal opinion that Duranik's vision for Native was so great and so inspirational that what you have done to Native is horribly in the wrong direction. He is a much greater programmer.

 

Duranik are actually two people. Roland (Coder) and Johannes Graf (Graphics). But I think they were indeed really great at what they did.

 

But that's just my personal opinion. No offense targetted.

 

Yes.

 

 

I guess the trolls from JI2 are finally making their way over here...

 

Why ? Just because he states his opinion doesn't mean that he is a troll.

 

You can thank Lars for telling them where we went...

 

Oh, yeah. Great. Just say that I'm responsible for everything that is bad in the world

No seriously, I dont understand what your problem is... If somebody here is a troll and gets annoying he'll be banned.

 

Btw, normally trolls won't register to get access to a forum. That makes AtariAge already a much better and safer place than JI2.

 

 

Regards, Lars.

[Tyrant]

I think Im with Lars here, his post was crude and a little offensive, and definatly not a good way to start life on a new board, but not quite troll like (yet).

[Thunderbird]

I think Im with Lars here, his post was crude and a little offensive, and definatly not a good way to start life on a new board, but not quite troll like (yet).

 

Well, he's entitled to an opinion like everyone else.

 

I wouln't ban him as a "troll" unless he persists in actring like one. Everyone can have a bad day or write something that reads different than they mean once in a while!

[+Sauron]

That is all true. However, I just fail to see the point of posting something with the intention of trying to rip someone for trying to make a contribution to the Jag community, and expect anything good to come of it. He is definitely entitled to his own opinion, though. I guess not everyone was taught that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

[Thunderbird]

That is all true. However, I just fail to see the point of posting something with the intention of trying to rip someone for trying to make a contribution to the Jag community, and expect anything good to come of it. He is definitely entitled to his own opinion, though. I guess not everyone was taught that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

 

I'm sure he's just frustrated because there are so many projects that get started and never get finished. The only thing that ever comes out any more for the Jaguar are just old titles that Atari abandoned. I'm sure he'd like to see something new get finished.

[+Sauron]

That's true also, but talking shit like he did is uncalled for. I'd like to know what he's done to contribute to the Jag community that gives him the right to badmouth someone else who really is trying.

[AwfullyJohnToday]

Well. If I am a troll. I apoligize.

 

Bye then.

 

I was trying to be a tad bit helpful in the first post. Unfortunantly it appears I came on to strong in my second post.

 

If you don't recognize a name, it doesn't mean they are a troll. Just because I haven't been initiaited into your tight-knit community

[Starcat]

Hi !

 

That is all true. However, I just fail to see the point of posting something with the intention of trying to rip someone for trying to make a contribution to the Jag community, and expect anything good to come of it. He is definitely entitled to his own opinion, though. I guess not everyone was taught that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

 

I'm not sure if that's always the best way. I think you should rather tell the people about problems rather than ingoring them.

 

If he sais he doesn't like Native the way James is working on it, maybe he can help to improve it with his critism.

 

That's true also, but talking shit like he did is uncalled for. I'd like to know what he's done to contribute to the Jag community that gives him the right to badmouth someone else who really is trying.

 

This is true for many other people as well. A lot of people complain, but don't actually do something themselves.

 

 

Regards, Lars.

[+Sauron]

If he sais he doesn't like Native the way James is working on it, maybe he can help to improve it with his critism.  

 

If he wants to help with criticism, he could at least TRY to be a bit more tactful with it.

 

If you don't recognize a name, it doesn't mean they are a troll. Just because I haven't been initiaited into your tight-knit community

 

If I don't recognize a name and they're ripping into someone on only their second post, 9 times out of 10 they turn out to be a troll.

 

If you want to be welcomed into a community, it's generally a good idea by NOT ripping into someone. That's a sure fire way to NOT make friends.

 

Honestly, if you have a problem with how James is trying to work on Native, why don't you email him privately instead of trying to demean him in a public forum?

[Garvin]

Hey folks.

 

Before I go on I want to say how crappy it is that someone would start slamming someone for trying to do something for this ungreatful community. Perhaps you guys would rather I just let this game sit on the shelf and do nothing. You want Duranik to do this game? Fine, ask them to do it. I surely have, and they made it very clear to me that they have no intention of doing it. Not even adding a new title screen graphic. So before you go on about how those guys are "better", you need to look at the whole picture. I thought by picking up this game I'd be at least bringing to life a game that people wanted to play. If you don't like it, then take up the reigns and do it yourself.

 

 

You changed too much. I was really looking foward to Native, maybe done by Carl or Thunderbird, but your work has already disappointed me. I have not been impressed at all by any of your work for the jaguar, or video games in general. You pick something up, you look at it, you put some sugar on top and give it to the ants. When have you actually finished anything? You sound like a college student to me, no work ethic.

This is funny. What have you played of mine that is bad? I haven't released anything even in the way of demos in a long time. The last demo I released was a few years ago. Have I been working on stuff? Yeah...off and on. What about you? Besides, if you have been paying attention, you'd know that I was a college student, but don't question my work ethic, because I'm only one guy. I've put in lots of hours on this thing and a lot of times, I'm up until 2 or 3am working on something Jag related. So say what you will, but I've spent lots of time cleaning up the Native code so that it was functional.

 

Oh, and just because I took out the money element, I've changed the game too much? Are you kiddin' me? The game is EXACTLY the same except it's missing the money that flies around the screen from time to time. And you know, the people who played it would have never noticed it if I didn't tell them.

 

Also, what I find funny is that of the two games I showed at Jagfest (Native and Dark Guardian) Dark Guardian got the most interest. Funny since that happens to be my own project.

 

I take nothing away from the Duranik guys, what they did with the game was impressive, though the inner workings of the code needed some improvement to be modular. Heh, if you're not looking forward to this game, then in my opinion you're not a gamer.

 

 

BTW. Garvin, why did you change the intro video? I liked that video, VERY High quality work there...

At what point did I say I changed the intro? I changed the title screen animation. You know the big NATIVE graphic that scales into the screen? It now fades in. I think this looks better, and it doesn't slow down like the scaling. You know, I am in the process of changing the intro with the letters, but I'm not getting rid of the letters, just changing the background. I think this will look better than a plain black screen.

 

 

It is my personal opinion that Duranik's vision for Native was so great and so inspirational that what you have done to Native is horribly in the wrong direction.

Ha, ha!! Have you even played Native? How about the version I'm working on? The only way you could say this is if you were at Jagfest.

 

 

He is a much greater programmer.

Oh? How so?

 

 

I think only Duranik could finish Native. Unimportant who else would do it, it wouldn't be the same.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Lars. There wasn't much there to make a comparison. Only most of a first level that lacked sound effects, music, and even the end boss. Which means that 95% of the game was missing. The only area where the game might suffer by someone else doing it is in the graphics. The underlying code is relatively easy to maniuplate especially now since I've made it more modular and more streamlined. You haven't played the version I'm working on now, so I ask that you hold your judgement until I put out a finished copy.

 

 

I'm sure he's just frustrated because there are so many projects that get started and never get finished. The only thing that ever comes out any more for the Jaguar are just old titles that Atari abandoned. I'm sure he'd like to see something new get finished.

I'm really trying to change this. But it's hard to do with so much pressure from people who keep badmouthing those who are legitimately working on projects. We're not talking about studios of 20 or more people trying to make a game. Most of us are only one or two strong and it's hard to do in a short amount of time.

 

 

If he sais he doesn't like Native the way James is working on it, maybe he can help to improve it with his critism.

How can he not like what I'm doing if he hasn't even played it? Save the critisicm for when there's something to criticize.

 

 

And just for the record, I do keep in contact with the Duranik guys about the game. Maybe not as much as I would like, but I do try to keep them in the loop about what's going on. The thing is, they seem to want to wash their hands of the game and so that leaves it up to me to make decisions about how things should work. Believe me, I want this game to end up as close to their vision as I could get, but this is hard. For this reason, everyone is just going to have to suck it up and face the fact that those guys AREN'T working on the game. As my mom used to say, "we just have to make due with what we have." Most of you guys haven't even seen what Native is like now. I don't mind listening to everyone's opinion, but complaining when you haven't even played the game is crazy.

 

I've done things with the game that other people have not been able to do or taken the time to do. The game is now CD native, it has sound effects, and music. Not to mention polish. A lot of things have been cleaned up and I think it looks better because of it. If this is not what you want out of a game, then fine. I'll just let it fall into the realm of obscurity.

 

Anyway, I think you guys will be surprised when you play the final version. This is all I'm going to say on the matter.

 

 

-Garvin

[AwfullyJohnToday]

If I am a troll. Again, I apoligize.

 

If I am a troll, I will therefore not reply to Garvin's post because that would be kindling a flame. I do not want to continue onwards in the direction my second post brought us.

[Garvin]

If I am a troll, I will therefore not reply to Garvin's post because that would be kindling a flame. I do not want to continue onwards in the direction my second post brought us.

 

Dude, it doesn't matter. No matter what you say about me or the game, I'm going to continue working on it. I'm going to work on it until I get it finished. The best form of protest you can apply in this situation is just not purchase a copy of the game. It's just that simple. I can't please everyone, but if 50% of the people who play it...like it, then I'm happy. So say what you have to say if it makes you feel better, but that doesn't mean it will change anything.

 

 

-Garvin

[tst89]

Hi Garvin!

 

I'm really looking forward to get sometime an full version of Native - so please finish it!

 

I think one time you will show us a finished version and all of us will

have the best (i hope so!) shooter like R-Type on our Jag!

 

Regards,

Thomas