Does anybody knows something about NATIVE??

[Starcat]

Before I go on I want to say how crappy it is that someone would start slamming someone for trying to do something for this ungreatful community.

 

The community is ungreatful. But that's just normal, because humans have always been and will always be ungreatful. There are always people that appreciate your work and others who don't.

 

Perhaps you guys would rather I just let this game sit on the shelf and do nothing.  You want Duranik to do this game?  Fine, ask them to do it.  I surely have, and they made it very clear to me that they have no intention of doing it.  Not even adding a new title screen graphic.

 

I know. I talk to them quite often.

 

So before you go on about how those guys are "better", you need to look at the whole picture.  I thought by picking up this game I'd be at least bringing to life a game that people wanted to play.  

 

I haven't seen enough of your work to judge if they are "better", but they are darn good.

 

Also, what I find funny is that of the two games I showed at Jagfest (Native and Dark Guardian) Dark Guardian got the most interest.  Funny since that happens to be my own project.  

 

That is indeed strange. On the €-JagFests Native always caught a lot of attention.

 

I take nothing away from the Duranik guys, what they did with the game was impressive, though the inner workings of the code needed some improvement to be modular.  Heh, if you're not looking forward to this game, then in my opinion you're not a gamer.

 

I'm looking forward to every serious Jaguar project.

 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, Lars.  There wasn't much there to make a comparison.  Only most of a first level that lacked sound effects, music, and even the end boss.  Which means that 95% of the game was missing.  The only area where the game might suffer by someone else doing it is in the graphics.  The underlying code is relatively easy to maniuplate especially now since I've made it more modular and more streamlined.  You haven't played the version I'm working on now, so I ask that you hold your judgement until I put out a finished copy.

 

James, you misunderstood. This shouldn't be a judgement of your version. That is just supposed to mean that it would be different.

If it's better or worse can not be said before the game is out.

 

I'm really trying to change this.  But it's hard to do with so much pressure from people who keep badmouthing those who are legitimately working on projects.  We're not talking about studios of 20 or more people trying to make a game.  Most of us are only one or two strong and it's hard to do in a short amount of time.

 

I know what you are talking about. I have teh same problem. A lot of people take new Jaguar projects not very serious. And doing a good game if you are alone is really difficult.

 

And just for the record, I do keep in contact with the Duranik guys about the game.  Maybe not as much as I would like, but I do try to keep them in the loop about what's going on.  The thing is, they seem to want to wash their hands of the game and so that leaves it up to me to make decisions about how things should work.  Believe me, I want this game to end up as close to their vision as I could get, but this is hard.  For this reason, everyone is just going to have to suck it up and face the fact that those guys AREN'T working on the game.  As my mom used to say, "we just have to make due with what we have."  Most of you guys haven't even seen what Native is like now.  I don't mind listening to everyone's opinion, but complaining when you haven't even played the game is crazy.

 

Yes, Native is part of their past.

 

I've done things with the game that other people have not been able to do or taken the time to do.  

 

I think most people didn't have the interest to finish the game.

I played around with the source quite a bit as well. First I wanted to use the native engine for Star Alliance, but I soon found out that it made more sense to code everything myself. That way I can find bugs and solve problems much easier.

 

The game is now CD native, it has sound effects, and music.  Not to mention polish.  A lot of things have been cleaned up and I think it looks better because of it.  If this is not what you want out of a game, then fine.  I'll just let it fall into the realm of obscurity.

 

Anyway, I think you guys will be surprised when you play the final version.  This is all I'm going to say on the matter.

 

I hope we will be pleasently surprised :-)

 

 

Regards, Lars.

[Tyrant]

My opinion, for what its worth (ie not much in the grand scale of things), is that the native demo rocks, it needs lots of work but the shere level of graphical detail and style is incredible, and as long as the final game remains close to that, I dont think Duranik will have a right to feel wronged (or anyone else to feel the game or Duranik's dream of it has been damaged).

 

As for them not wanting to be a part of it, maybe you should try working on your own then sending them copies / vidieos of it when you get to big steps. Seing their dream realised, may give them the motivation to tell you how to make it closer to what it was supposed to be.

[SwedenLynxer]

Is there any way you can tell have many levels Native will have when (not if I hope) it is finished?

 

I think a game like Protector is great but it is a little to short

[Thunderbird]

My opinion, for what its worth (ie not much in the grand scale of things), is that the native demo rocks, it needs lots of work but the shere level of graphical detail and style is incredible, and as long as the final game remains close to that, I dont think Duranik will have a right to feel wronged (or anyone else to feel the game or Duranik's dream of it has been damaged).

 

As for them not wanting to be a part of it, maybe you should try working on your own then sending them copies / vidieos of it when you get to big steps. Seing their dream realised, may give them the motivation to tell you how to make it closer to what it was supposed to be.

 

I thought OMC said they had "exclusive rights" or something and nobody could work on their own. Did I miss something?

[Starcat]

Hi Thunderbird !

 

No. There are no "exclusive rights". Duranik declared Native freeware (or even public domain ?) long ago. The source is free to anybody who wants to work with it. Anybody who wants to could try and complete their version of Native.

 

Of course they still like to be asked before you do something with their stuff, but that is obvious anyway.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Thunderbird]

Hi Thunderbird !

 

No. There are no "exclusive rights". Duranik declared Native freeware (or even public domain ?) long ago. The source is free to anybody who wants to work with it. Anybody who wants to could try and complete their version of Native.  

 

Of course they still like to be asked before you do something with their stuff, but that is obvious anyway.

 

Regards, Lars.

 

That's very cool of them to do. Perhaps it will be incentive for someone else to try to finish it as well. It would be a great way for someone who knows programming to get something going on the Jag

[Garvin]

Is there any way you can tell have many levels Native will have when (not if I hope) it is finished?

 

Well, right now I have about 12 levels on the board. Once I get everything nailed down in the way of powerups and that sort of thing, then I'll start working on them in full force. Unfortunately, I'm working on Dark Guardian too, so the time I spend on each project is kind of divided.

 

 

I thought OMC said they had "exclusive rights" or something and nobody could work on their own. Did I miss something?

 

It's complicated. The engine itself is freeware as far as I was told. As far as I know I'm the only guy releasing the game with the name Native.

 

 

As for them not wanting to be a part of it, maybe you should try working on your own then sending them copies / vidieos of it when you get to big steps. Seing their dream realised, may give them the motivation to tell you how to make it closer to what it was supposed to be.

They're nice guys, and they do give me insight on what they were planning when I ask. They also send me missing files or explain something if I need information. Like I said, I do try to keep them in the loop, because it is their game. I'm just helping them out by finishing it.

 

 

-Garvin

[MacGurl]

I for one am definitely looking forward to this game and I am glad that Garvin is the one working on it.

 

These guys that are trying to find stuff wrong with you now are the same ones that once the games come out, will be spending all of their time trying to find stuff wrong with the game so they can say how they wish someone else would've done it.

 

James, you do great work and there's alot of us out there that understand that you're only one person working on this whenever you have a spare moment (and I've heard you work your butt off). We can't wait to play it.

[Clint Thompson]

Either way, I don't really expect to see anyone jump on and grab the source and say "I'm gonna finish this too!"

 

Even if someone did, then well.. great! Why?

Becuase then you'd have 2 different versions of Native and maybe even

a name change! and well.... 2 more shooters, heh....

which shooters seem to be the 'thing' for the Jaguar, I somtimes

want something different...

 

Battlesphere, Protector, Protector SE, Dark Guardian, Native, Zero, Star Alliance....

 

....I just wish The Assassin would have been more "capable" of being finished, cuz man, I seen that going into some nice places! Places where the Jag couldn't quite handle, but with enough years and enough people, perhaps!

 

James, if your reading this and if you ever happen to pick back up on The Assassin, I would say make it a DC project, as I could only imagine how friggin cool that came would turn out!

 

Technically speaking, the Jag COULD handle it I suppose... but you would be sacraficing a LOT!

 

Which brings me to, well, I guess that's why I see a lot of shooters/space stuff.... much easier to do.

 

Later On Gang

 

Clint Thompson

 

btw: MacGurl, your quote made me hit the ground laughing! nice one!

[Garvin]

....I just wish The Assassin would have been more "capable" of being finished, cuz man, I seen that going into some nice places! Places where the Jag couldn't quite handle, but with enough years and enough people, perhaps!

 

The Assassin. Man, I must get either an e-mail or comment about that game just about every week. Seems to be the game that most people want. The only thing stopping the project honestly is finding a good artist to take up the reigns. It's one of those games where I really want it to turn out well. I don't think the Jag would have a problem with it, though. There are some issues here and there, but I took those into consideration while I was working on it all those years ago.

 

 

James, if your reading this and if you ever happen to pick back up on The Assassin, I would say make it a DC project, as I could only imagine how friggin cool that came would turn out!

That's a possibility. I considered that also, but I just couldn't find a good assembler for the DC. Not to mention other issues. I guess anything could happen, though.

 

 

Technically speaking, the Jag COULD handle it I suppose... but you would be sacraficing a LOT!

If it was done on CD (which was the original plan), then there wouldn't be any problems getting it to work. The biggest problem would be RAM. Unfortunately, right now it wouldn't work because there isn't a mass storage device for the JagCD. 128 bytes of space isn't enough to save all of the variables needed. And as it stands now, none of the current CD bypass carts have enough even at 2k of space. There would have to be a minimum of 4k of free space in order for it to save one game. Perhaps we'll come up with a NV-RAM solution at some point, but right now, there wouldn't be any way for it to work.

 

Your comment about shooters on the Jag hits home, though. In some odd way it makes me want to stop working on Dark Guardian for a while and pick up Scent Of the Spider or something. I hadn't noticed the number of them until you mentioned it. Though, I don't think Zero is coming out anytime soon.

 

 

 

-Garvin

[+Sauron]

Though, I don't think Zero is coming out anytime soon.

 

I'll take that to mean "never".

[Clint Thompson]

Just saying, man, from what I seen graphic wise, that Andrew was working on (ahem) that looked just friggin awesome for a Jag game!

 

Everyone may say, Oh you mean that crude cruddy or whatever you wanna call it demo, didn't apparently see the pipeline of what was lying ahead, and about those people that you say talk or email you about it every week must've known!

 

...and that's what I was meaning by limited on the Jag as far as the assassin goes, because of so little ram. but anyway

 

As far as a good assembly editor, I think one will eventually show up soon, as the underground DC dev people are always working on something, so who knows, but in any case, guess you you should stick with 1-2 projects to work on at a time instead of get mis-focused and spend all your time on the DC

 

And about the shooters comment, I was just saying ya know

I know enough about The Assassin and I know enough about Dark Guardian, but Scent of the Spider you speak of I guess I don't know too much about... and as far as zero, I was well, in a weird way, beta testing what there _was_ of Zero... and he ultimately canned it and sold off his equipment. (although I guess there wasn't too much to test anyways, but yea) I love being in the design loop... its fun!

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tap the Jaguar in a unique way that utilizes it's power but doesn't focus on slow performance or jerky animation (haha, j/k) but a solid in-depth game with some polished graphics. oh, and being a shooter doesn't count (Cuz everyone is probably thinking , what about Battlesphere?) Well, I can't say I care for BS as much as everyone does, hmmm, guess I'm just not into the Star Raiders sorta thing, but everyone has their game, and well, everyone doesn't like the same thing, no matter how much someone wants to justify I'm an ingorant bastard for not liking BS, it's my opinion and thats what I'm here for buuut.. Zero 5 is awesome!

 

Best of luck to you James regarding your current projects! Can't wait to see some major updating soon.

 

Clint Thompson

[Stone]

There would have to be a minimum of 4k of free space in order for it to save one game. Perhaps we'll come up with a NV-RAM solution at some point, but right now, there wouldn't be any way for it to work.

 

I'm sure nobody would mind sacrificing a Memory Track to it, but then you'd need to either encrypt the CD (yeah, right), make a BJL-compatible file of the CD bypass (something I'm sure can be done and am starting to get impatient about cos I nkow I'm not good enough to do it) or make an updated BJL BIOS image containing CD bypass support (very possible).

 

Or someone could form some kinda Borg-oid hybrid of a Memory Track and the Bypass Cart.

 

Or, you could make a hot-swappable cart (prolly could be done, if nothing was going on when you pulled the cart; the Jag wouldn't power-off cos the JagCD would be shorting the CARTIN-A and CARTIN-B pins).

 

OK, I just invent the ideas, it's up to you lot to make them work

 

Stone

[+Sauron]

One thing to keep in mind about the CD-Bypass + NVRAM solution is that you'd want one that would cater to the widest audience possible. With each solution I see either coming out or being bandied about, it seems like the target audience is growing smaller and smaller. Unfortunately, not everyone has a Jag CD OR BJL kit, so that's a pretty small audience right there. Even a good number of the hardcore Jag audience doesn't have Protector SE or BattleSphere. Hell, I'm running minus a JagCD PLUS those two games right now, and I'm even trying to get into Jag development!

 

All I'm saying is that whatever solution works best, just try to make it as easy and cheap as possible.

[Tyrant]

The obvious solution would be to release it on cartridge, where you can put in a huge fat serial eeprom for saving data, use the universal encription header, and have anyone and everyone able to play it... except that the production costs in making new carts are fairly high I think. You could always then put all the movies and music (and extra levels) on an optional CD for those who have a JagCD (they are quite rare). As JagCD's are quite rare, as well as bypass solutions so until someone, somewhere, finds the encription key, cd games will still have a limited audience.

[Garvin]

Cartridge would be good in some cases, but for a lot of the games I work on I really like the flexibility of CD. I have planned on having ED:SotS on cartridge, but I'm pretty sure that will change. I'm not sure yet, though. Due to the size of The Assassin, there is no way it would fit on anything less than CD. Native won't work on cartridge either...well, it could, but there would be a drop in graphic detail. Dark Guardian will most likely change to CD. I've already got it running on CD.

 

All I'm saying is that whatever solution works best, just try to make it as easy and cheap as possible.

I agree with this. Finding a good cheap solution is important. I'm for creating a NV-RAM+boot option. This way you buy one cart. and it works for just about everything out there (including old CD games) and it even has save functions. So each person would only need to purchase ONE cart. As it stands now, if you buy the B&C one, you're in trouble, because it doesn't have any save space. Which means, you'll have to buy another boot cart. There's nothing cool about that.

 

 

-Garvin

[tst89]

Hi Garvin!

 

Was Native by Duranik since the beginning planned as a CD game

or wanted they bring it as an cartridge?

 

If just few changes could make of this an cartridge game it would be much better - also for you - because much more users have just an jaguar without the cd-drive.

 

Or would it be very difficult to find the right hardware for the cartridges???

 

Regards,

Thomas

[bolid]

I played Native demo and it could be one of the best games ever for Jaguar if it will be finished. For sure the best shooter for Jag!

 

In my personal opinion Garvin is capable to finish the game (I remember that I heard Native told it is extremely hard to add sounds in Native because of Jag RAM limitation and if Garvin added sounds in demo level - then he knows very good what he is doing).

Also I like idea from Starcat and Garvin to distribute games (Star Alliance and Native) on CD! It will be cheaper and can be produced without problems.

 

I hope this can help to Jaguar scene because personaly I don't like new trend on Jag scene with selling unfinished demos or "enhanced" games for big amounts. We really need new original complete games!

 

 

Bolid

[The Helper]

If you need an artist check this out

 

http://www.visualcues.com

 

The guys name is Chile and he is a good friend of mine. He is a budding artist with free time on his hands. You might want to ask him if he would help with you the artwork - he is a helper you know

[Garvin]

I understand everyone's concern about carts. vs. CDs. This is an area I had debated with myself for a long time. But with the cost of games being as high as they are, and more people getting upset about that, I thought it was best to go with a cheaper solution. Sure a lot of people don't have CD units, but ask yourself this: What's better? A cheap game on CD, or an expensive game on cartridge? Would you rather pay $60-$90 for a cartridge as opposed to a $20-$50 CD? If you want cheap solutions to games, then CDs are the best way to go. I figure that with a cheaper game, more people will purhcase them. Unfortunately, with CDs, you have to buy an extra bit of hardware to use, but that's a one time expense which will allow you to play all CDs from then on. Not only that, but CDs allow for larger games and all of that.

 

All of this debate is good, because it does give me an idea of where people are coming from. If anyone else has any ideas, please feel free to share them.

 

 

-Garvin

[Atari_Owl]

I think what slightly concerns me about the CDs is the likelihood of people copying them themselves and selling heaps of bootlegs.

 

Kind of hard with the Cart, kind of easy with the CDs.

 

If the developers do finish games for CD what is the likelihood of them getting ANY kind of return on their investment in time and effort and yes resources.

 

I know people will want originals and everything, but all the same, its a concern.

 

Cheers

[Starcat]

Hi Clint !

 

Either way, I don't really expect to see anyone jump on and grab the source and say "I'm gonna finish this too!"

 

Even if someone did, then well.. great! Why?

Becuase then you'd have 2 different versions of Native and maybe even

a name change! and well.... 2 more shooters, heh....

which shooters seem to be the 'thing' for the Jaguar, I somtimes

want something different...

 

Battlesphere, Protector, Protector SE, Dark Guardian, Native, Zero, Star Alliance....

 

Of course if you see it general all of those games are "shooters" of some kind, BUT completely different.

I would sort it this way:

 

3D Space Shooter: Battlesphere

Defender Updates/clones: Protector/SE

2D Scrolling Shooter: Native, Star Alliance

 

I'm not sure what exactly Dark Guardian plays like, so I'll put it into "others".

 

However there are only two 2D scrolling shooters on the Jag: Raiden (which is a cool game) and Trevor McFur (which sucks). So a good 2D scrolling shooter is needed badly. This is where Star Alliance or Native jumps in.

 

Zero is not a serious project and I wouldn't even keep thinking about it. I mean eXtreme-rush only knows little about Jag coding and disappered already almost a year ago or so. From the sources and questions he used to ask me I can say that his coding knowledge is still minimal and by far not enough to create a Jaguar demo or even a complete game.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Tyrant]

I think what slightly concerns me about the CDs is the likelihood of people copying them themselves and selling heaps of bootlegs.

 

Kind of hard with the Cart, kind of easy with the CDs.

 

If the developers do finish games for CD what is the likelihood of them getting ANY kind of return on their investment in time and effort and yes resources.

 

I know people will want originals and everything, but  all the same, its a concern.

 

Cheers

 

Once a working Jaguar emulator is out, cartridge images will be traded about all the time, without regard for copyright. It sucks I know but it WILL happen, and I think the MAME programers are still working on it hard so as to emulate CoJag hardware, thus a real Jag emu cant be far behind.

[+Sauron]

One way to combat piracy of CD games is to either number or personalize each copy of the game. As the Jaguar user base is pretty small, this wouldn't be too difficult to do. If nothing else, it would be an effective way of seeing exactly who is copying the CD's.

[Thunderbird]

One way to combat piracy of CD games is to either number or personalize each copy of the game. As the Jaguar user base is pretty small, this wouldn't be too difficult to do. If nothing else, it would be an effective way of seeing exactly who is copying the CD's.

 

I think a serial number won't stop it from happening. It just won't get openly traded. But 4 or 5 buddies would have no problem buying one copy and duping it for everyone. Especially if the game Jag-Linked.