Atari ROM = public domain ?

[atariportal]

Has Atari Inc released the OSA/OSB/Basic/XL Roms to pd/oss/gnu or any other? Who owns actual the rights? Someone says: with cancelling the flashback-projects, atari gave "some material" to curt vendel (for pd?) is this correct? Or have any other released the rom's to pd/..... ?

 

Why i ask: Sience beginning the A800WinPLus Emu comes without any ROM. For newbies is it very hard to install a couple of files. Is it possible to release these ROM files that the Emu-developer can include these files?

 

Andreas

Edited April 13, 2007 by atariportal

[Urchlay]

Has Atari Inc released the OSA/OSB/Basic/XL Roms to pd/oss/gnu or any other? Who owns actual the rights? Someone says: with cancelling the flashback-projects, atari gave "some material" to curt vendel (for pd?) is this correct? Or have any other released the rom's to pd/..... ?

 

Why i ask: Sience beginning the A800WinPLus Emu comes without any ROM. For newbies is it very hard to install a couple of files. Is it possible to release these ROM files that the Emu-developer can include these files?

 

Andreas

 

So far as I know, the only totally legal way to acquire the Atari ROMs for use with emulators is to download the original zip file of the old XFormer 2.5 emulator. Atari licensed the ROMs to be distributed this way (or anyway, I remember reading that on the XFormer site, way way back).

 

Personally, I consider it ethical to use the ROMs with an emulator, if you actually own the original Atari computer(s)... but just because I think it's OK, doesn't make it legal.

 

So far as I know, nobody's ever gotten sued for *using* the ROMs with any emulator... partly because the amount of money the copyright holders would have to spend to find people like that, would be a lot more than they could expect to collect in a lawsuit.

 

Emulator *authors*, though, have to be a lot more careful: Popular emulators are pretty high-profile, well-known, and the copyright holders could possibly shut down such projects just by *threatening* legal action... not that they're likely to at this late date, but you never know.

 

If you want to be totally legit, there are several different reverse-engineered "Atari-compatible" OS replacements out there. Atari++ comes with one that seems to work pretty well (the little I've used it, anyway). This makes Atari++ the only emulator (other than the outdated XFormer 2.5) that you can download and run as-is, without adding anything (it even comes with its own DOS, if you don't want to use Atari DOS).

[Goochman]

The OS-A Roms were released in the public domain when Atari provided the Translator disks for compat with the XL/XE line - I am pretty sure I heard that a long time ago.

 

OS-B/C were not 100% - but I am not 100% sure on that

[Nukey Shay]

For newbies is it very hard to install a couple of files.

 

Nah. Getting newbies to actually -read- installation instructions...that's the hard part. Remember, we were all n00bs sometime. For me, it went like this:

 

"Hey, this Nesticle thing doesn't work!"

* looks at readme file

* searches Google for dos4gw

"Oh...nevermind".

[Heaven/TQA]

i dont know what is hard to understand...

 

http://www.a800win.atari-area.prv.pl/

 

(ok...you have to switch on the english page)

 

Friday, August 26, 2005

 

Final version of Atari800Win PLus!

Atari800Win PLus 4.0.exe, installer - 673 174 bytes

Atari800Win PLus 4.0.zip, binaries - 688 557 bytes

Atari800Win PLus 4.0.src.7z, sources - 803 741 bytes

xf25.zip, emulator X-Former 2.5 containing *.ROM files. You should copy them to the ROM subdirectory of Atari800Win PLus emulator.

This is the finial of my 1 year work on Atari800Win PLus. I would like to thank all the people who helped me in my work either by suggestions or by testing. May the force ... May the Atari be with You!

[Beetle]

Hi,

 

you know there ARE guys which don't even know how to open the

"ROM subdirectory of Atari800Win PLus emulator" if there is not

an Icon on the desktop for it.

 

Andreas aims for a fool proof setup, which also sets up the correct

OS Rom images for the valued user. Just do the setup.exe,

find the "Atari Emulator" Icon on the desktop and doubleclick it.

 

It is surely not very hard to understand for 97% of the people here.

But for absolute beginners, its not obvious to get the right xformer.zip,

have an unzip program (some have still to find and install that) and

extract the romfiles to the destination folder. Keep in mind that some

people who want to use an atari emulator might in no way be familiar

with windows at all.

 

As far as Curt Vendel said in the FB3 thread, Atari released the a8

chipset as Public Domain to him several years ago. I am unsure

if that includes the OS software.

 

Greets,

Beetls

Edited April 14, 2007 by Beetle

[Rybags]

Didn't they release not only the 8-bit catalog but Jaguar and Lynx software into PD as well?

 

Public Domain tends to mean not for profit, aside from fair charge for packaging/distribution.

[atariportal]

Many thanks for reply,

the answeres mirrors my things about the possible unclear status of the rom-files.

 

For a real beginner, without basic knowledge of english language it is more difficult than it seems to be.

 

Ok, i have to tell more why: At the last weeks some users translated the Atari800WinPLus to german. (These translations/files goes later to the developers after the last tests has ended) My intention is to made the first steps to get a working emulation simple as possible for all beginners.

 

At the moment are more steps needed for a german installation:

- download/install decruncher

- download/install XF25

- download/install Atari800WinPLus

- move rom files to the correct folder at Atari800WinPlus

until here noobs without knowledge of engl. lang. have a very big problem. (the age of ger. users are between 15 and 82)

- now download, decrunch and manual copy of german version of A8WinPLus to dest. folder

 

Lately here, if the user have no knowledge of PC-file organization, they cancel all and thats it. -> User lost...

 

But... if the ROM files official "free" and the german translations can also be included into the emulator, only one simple step is needed

- Download/Install. Finish.

 

regards

andreas

[Retro Rogue]

Didn't they release not only the 8-bit catalog but Jaguar and Lynx software into PD as well?

 

Public Domain tends to mean not for profit, aside from fair charge for packaging/distribution.

 

No. The Jaguar was designated as an open platform by Hasbro, which means its open to develop for. But to date, I'm not aware of any software being released to the PD. They take protection of their titles and properties seriously.

[Retro Rogue]

But... if the ROM files official "free" and the german translations can also be included into the emulator, only one simple step is needed

- Download/Install. Finish.

 

regards

andreas

 

 

As far as I know, they're not free. The hardware itself has been pretty much moved to PD, mainly because of the availability of the plans and specs for a number of years. But I haven't heard that about any software/firmware. Your best bet is to talk to Curt, he regularly works with Atari Legal and would certainly know.

[Heaven/TQA]

re:atari800win...

 

ehm... by running the setup.exe and the emulator first time it asks user for the rom files and if the user does not know where they are the emu search for it and even recognises which rom they are?

 

i personally like atari800win as it is more userfriendly like many other emulators f.e. mess (baeh...), psx emus or nintendo ones...

[atariportal]

Hi

by running the setup.exe and the emulator first time it asks user for the rom files and if the user does not know where they are the emu search for it and even recognises which rom they are?

 

yes. but only, if the user has installed xf25 first. users they can not read english text have a problem to use the emulator.

of course most users speaks english, too.

 

Btw: the translation to german includes additional an alternative keyboard-layout. Who knows, possible the next step is french? :-)

 

The only wish i have is: simple as possible = more fun. More languages = more users

Edited April 14, 2007 by atariportal

[Heaven/TQA]

ja. schon klar... best would be like done with bounty bob where the emulator & the game are one binary...

[carmel_andrews]

I got my roms from the 'pigwa.net' ftp site (it's got every hardware and o/s rom for our A8's)

 

it's got also all the basics and o/s revisions, including the obscure ones like 1200 and 1400 o/s's , 800xe and xegs roms

Edited April 16, 2007 by carmel_andrews

[Trooper]

Why not just make an easy to understand German FAQ? Wouldn't that be a workable solution to the problem?

 

/T

[ijor]

Hmm, seems there is a lot of misleading, imprecise and partial information in this thread. And no, I don't have the exact answers. But I do would love to get some precise answers.

 

So far as I know, the only totally legal way to acquire the Atari ROMs for use with emulators is to download the original zip file of the old XFormer 2.5 emulator. Atari licensed the ROMs to be distributed this way

 

Atari authorized Derek to include the ROMs for using them in ST XFormer. This means we have a legal way to redistribute those ROMs. It doesn't mean at all that you can legally use them for any other purpose (such as a PC emulator). Furthermore, it doesn't mean you can distribute any other ROMs besides those included in the XFormer package.

 

The OS-A Roms were released in the public domain when Atari provided the Translator disks for compat with the XL/XE line - I am pretty sure I heard that a long time ago.

 

Are you sure? I know Atari authorized free distribution of the Translator disk. This doesn't mean you can use the ROMs included in the disk for any other purposes. It certainly doesn't mean they put it in the public domain.

 

As far as Curt Vendel said in the FB3 thread, Atari released the a8 chipset as Public Domain to him several years ago.

 

He said that in that words I'm sure you realize that sentence doesn't make much sense as it is. How can you release something as Public Domain to somebody?

 

 

Again, I don't have the answers. What would be very interesting is if somebody can get precise answers. And besides the answers, we all want Atari vintage IP to be free. It doesn't need to be in the public domain. Just a formal declaration that the vintage IP can be freely distributed and used, at least when not for profit.

 

The current situation is that we all use Atari IP because it seems there is an implicit authorization. Probably good enough for all of us. But it is about time to get an explicit formal authorization. Otherwise a future copyright holder can always change the situation.

[Beetle]

As far as Curt Vendel said in the FB3 thread, Atari released the a8 chipset as Public Domain to him several years ago.

 

He said that in that words I'm sure you realize that sentence doesn't make much sense as it is. How can you release something as Public Domain to somebody?

 

 

Well, it made no sense to me as well.

He wrote it a bit different. Read it yourself here.

 

Greetings from Germany,

Beetle

Edited April 17, 2007 by Beetle

[ijor]

Well, it made no sense to me as well.

He wrote it a bit different. Read it yourself here.

 

Hi Beetle,

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to argue with you or with anybody else. I just wanted to remark that the thread is full of partial, vague and imprecise information and even rumours. For an issue that it is very important for all of us here. And again, I'm afraid I don't have any better information.

[Retro Rogue]

Well, it made no sense to me as well.

He wrote it a bit different. Read it yourself here.

 

Hi Beetle,

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to argue with you or with anybody else. I just wanted to remark that the thread is full of partial, vague and imprecise information and even rumours. For an issue that it is very important for all of us here. And again, I'm afraid I don't have any better information.

 

 

The chipset he was refering to was what I said earlier - the hardware design and custom chips. I.E. Antic, GTIA, POKEY and the 8-bit motherboards (i.e. interface/bus) have been released to the PD, mainly because their proprietary designs (schematics, etc.) had been in public for so long now - including via Curt's site. As far as I know, this does not cover the actual OS rom code as I stated earlier. But yes, someone could now legally release their own hardware based on the original custom chips and a custom 6502 core.

[ijor]

Hi Marty,

 

Thanks you for your post.

 

The chipset he was refering to was what I said earlier - the hardware design and custom chips. I.E. Antic, GTIA, POKEY and the 8-bit motherboards (i.e. interface/bus) have been released to the PD

 

Is that a rumour or is that official? Was there any kind of formal statement?

 

I mean, it is useless to release something to the public domain in secret. And even if not secret, it is still legally useless without a formal statement.

 

mainly because their proprietary designs (schematics, etc.) had been in public for so long now - including via Curt's site. As far as I know, this does not cover the actual OS rom code as I stated earlier.

 

What about other chipsets, like ST, 2600, Falcon, etc? What about other IP like firmware, DOS, TOS, etc? What about the non systems software?

 

I don't see how the fact that the information was publicly available could have any legal impact or relevance. You can publish schematics, ASCI netlists, source code, etc, and still mantain full copyright if you want. Actually, Atari published source code for several ROMs back on the old days.

 

What I'm trying to say is, if Atari was ready to release the 8-bit chipset to the public domain, then why not do the same with everything else?

 

But yes, someone could now legally release their own hardware based on the original custom chips and a custom 6502 core.

 

Yes, but without including ROM. Btw, I don't think this have any pratical relevance on a potential 8-bit hardware clone. For a commertial product? well in theory it could be important. But I don't see any chance that anybody besides Curt could release such a commertial product. And if Curt does it, we all know that he could get authorization from Atari in the worst case.

 

Regarding a non-commertial product. It is possible, perhaps, that somebody else would make a non-commertial FPGA core. But this probably won't be affected by the chipset being in the public domain or not. After all we do are seeing chipset cores for many other systems without them being in the public domain.

[david.nason@sbcglobal.net]

Hi,

 

Does anyone have the source code for the Rev 2 ROM in the 800XL? If you do, I would appreciate a copy. I've got it disassembled, but I would really like to add the original comments and labels.

 

As an aside, I'm also looking for the program file for the MMU in the 800XL, although I pretty much have it figured out.

 

My goal that started this whole thing is that I was trying to find a simple way of creating a true hardware reset. These are the methods I've come up with as possibilities:

1. Burn a new ROM with a small patch that checks for the "Select" key being held down and if so, does a coldstart

2. Program the break key interrupt to clear the PUPBITs

3. Creat an add-on card for the expansion bus that does something (I'm not sure what yet)

4. ???

 

If anyone has any thoughts on this, please let me know. I will gladly post the results of this project once it's all done.

 

Dave

[atariportal]

Hi,

 

Does anyone have the source code for the Rev 2 ROM in the 800XL? If you do, I would appreciate a copy. I've got it disassembled, but I would really like to add the original comments and labels.

 

As an aside, I'm also looking for the program file for the MMU in the 800XL, although I pretty much have it figured out.

 

My goal that started this whole thing is that I was trying to find a simple way of creating a true hardware reset. These are the methods I've come up with as possibilities:

1. Burn a new ROM with a small patch that checks for the "Select" key being held down and if so, does a coldstart

2. Program the break key interrupt to clear the PUPBITs

3. Creat an add-on card for the expansion bus that does something (I'm not sure what yet)

4. ???

 

If anyone has any thoughts on this, please let me know. I will gladly post the results of this project once it's all done.

 

Dave

Hello david nason

sorry, but please back to topic. (Or create a new thread)

This thread discuss the (pd-)release of original build roms and rom-images. (possible there exist an official rom-listing at DeReAtari)

 

Btw: I have contacted Curt Vendel for this thread.

 

andreas

Edited April 20, 2007 by atariportal

[david.nason@sbcglobal.net]

Hi,

 

Sorry about the branch, but since we were discussing the ROM and it's PD status, the PD status of the source code would be as applicable to the discussion as the PD status of the object code. If the object code is in the PD, then hopefully the source is too and someone has that available.

 

The rest of the stuff should probably go into a new thread, I'm just not sure how to start one out.

 

Dave

[Retro Rogue]

 

Is that a rumour or is that official? Was there any kind of formal statement?

 

I mean, it is useless to release something to the public domain in secret. And even if not secret, it is still legally useless without a formal statement.

 

There's a big different between not caring to announce something (as in it it's minscule in relevance in to day to day operations) and doing something "secret". There is no "rumour", I'm part of Legacy and I know what I was told by Curt.

 

What about other chipsets, like ST, 2600, Falcon, etc? What about other IP like firmware, DOS, TOS, etc? What about the non systems software?

 

That wasn't in the scope of the discussion, but 2600 wise I know those patents expired already, as had the patent on the "heavy sixer" case design. The only thing they still have are the trademarks and copyrights related to the name.

 

I don't see how the fact that the information was publicly available could have any legal impact or relevance. You can publish schematics, ASCI netlists, source code, etc, and still mantain full copyright if you want. Actually, Atari published source code for several ROMs back on the old days.

 

From a legal standpoint its simple, you need to actively protect your properties. If it is shown otherwise (i.e. you allowed your material to be used in a public domain manner), you run the risk of loosing that legal protection or claim. Atari publishing something or giving someone permission to publish something, or something being published because of reverse engineering is hardly a counter example, that's not an issue of public domain useage.

 

What I'm trying to say is, if Atari was ready to release the 8-bit chipset to the public domain, then why not do the same with everything else?

 

I have no idea if they did or didn't, again, that wasn't in the scope of past conversations.

 

But I don't see any chance that anybody besides Curt could release such a commertial product. And if Curt does it, we all know that he could get authorization from Atari in the worst case.

 

Again, anyone could (whether or not they can do a product as good as us is another matter). The only thing they could not do is use the name or logo of Atari or any of the computer names without licensing them - unless they just wanted to say "Atari® 8-bit Compatible".

Edited April 22, 2007 by wgungfu

[Retro Rogue]

Btw: I have contacted Curt Vendel for this thread.

 

andreas

 

Vacation time, he'll probably answer when he gets back (if he didn't email before he left).

 

Its a good thing he moved everything to a secret underground warehouse, otherwise he'd come home to find himself cleared out after I made this announcement.