Survival Horror for the Blind...

[A Sprite]

Is it true that nothing we can see is as terrifying as what we imagine? Imagine a black screen. Imagine that you can hear your heartbeat, and your footsteps.

 

Imagine you're not the only one...

 

You can tap on the walls and the furniture to make out shapes, and doing so means you have to stick out your hand...

 

Unless you pick up a stick.

 

You pick up a gun, and you have no idea how many bullets it has..

 

As "it" draws closer, (or she, or he, you don't know), your heart beats faster, and you're faced with that most primal of choices - fight or flight?

 

And here's where I must apologize, for I'm not a programmer, and I have no idea how much 3d data a classic console could contain in order to give back accurate feedback to the user, or whether this is even a good idea, to handicap the player - would they accept it?

 

But I can't let go of the idea, or rather, it can't let go of me. This is an exorcism, of sorts - you see, I'm handicapped...

 

I'll spare you the tragic details.

 

I'm just curious as to whether this would have been a 5200 game worth playing? It seemed like the best use of a non-centering joystick was to keep people from getting lost...

Edited May 15, 2007 by A Sprite

[Pixelboy]

It's an intriguing idea, although I can't imagine how this game could be implemented without being turned into an old-style text adventure game. I mean, even if there are no real graphics to speak of, if you want to interact with your "invisible environment", you'll have to enter commands in some manner, and get some kind of description of what you can perceive in this virtual world via these commands.

 

On the other hand, a game driven by sound only could be a very interesting homebrew experiment... It could even be done on the Atari 2600, theoretically, with a simple SwordQuest-style icon bar at the bottom of the screen, and flashes of color when the player bumps into (or gets hurt by) something...

[vdub_bobby]

It's an intriguing idea, although I can't imagine how this game could be implemented without being turned into an old-style text adventure game. I mean, even if there are no real graphics to speak of, if you want to interact with your "invisible environment", you'll have to enter commands in some manner, and get some kind of description of what you can perceive in this virtual world via these commands.

 

On the other hand, a game driven by sound only could be a very interesting homebrew experiment... It could even be done on the Atari 2600, theoretically, with a simple SwordQuest-style icon bar at the bottom of the screen, and flashes of color when the player bumps into (or gets hurt by) something...

Well, if you don't have a display to worry about you can do soft synth fairly easily (digitized speech, etc.) - memory issues will have to be dealt with, especially on older consoles, but something could be done.

 

Another option is using the AtariVox...actually, that would be amazingly awesome. You could fit a *ton* of AVox speech in a 32K cart.

[Glenn Jupp]

Wow. It's "Hunt the Wumpus," but with sound only. Without getting too ambitious, something should be very doable on the 2600. The heartbeat thing is a good idea, and one that tickles my memory. I think a Tandy CoCo game used a heartbeat instead of a health bar or hit point counter. Gotta look that up.

 

Control wise, I imagine it would be too easy to get lost in the environment if holding down the joystick gives continuous movement. Maybe make one push on the stick equal one step or turn?

 

Even with the 2600, there's been experiments and demos with samples of digitized sound. Beyond my skills though. I'm only at the batariBasic level.

 

PIxelboy, maybe display some simple indicators, and even a screensaver. But I think giving more information on-screen than through the speakers feels too much like letting the sighted players cheat.

 

Gotta see about converting my 2600 to stereo sound. Hmm.

 

Well, A Sprite. I think you've got me hooked here.

[A Sprite]

Wow.

 

I didn't expect any replies, much less ones this well thought out...

 

Control wise, I imagine it would be too easy to get lost in the environment if holding down the joystick gives continuous movement. Maybe make one push on the stick equal one step or turn?

 

I was hoping that a two joystick control scheme could be used, with one joystick being used to explore a 3d space, much like a mouse, but with some kind of sound feedback based on texture and distance? Like, if you tapped on a wooden table, it would sound different from a metal tray on that table? And a surface that's right in front of you would return a tap faster than one you have to reach for.

 

The other controller could be used to move foward left, right, and down, with the button being used to manipulate what ever you're holding?

 

Kinda like Doom meets Myst by way of Hunt the Wampus and

 

. I think a Tandy CoCo game used a heartbeat instead of a health bar or hit point counter.

 

Dungeons of Daggaroth? That brings back memories. I forgot about that one, thank you.

 

Another option is using the AtariVox...actually, that would be amazingly awesome. You could fit a *ton* of AVox speech in a 32K cart.

 

How much? Could it be possible to do little things like, say, you suddenly hear a woman humming a tune, and unnerve the players until they realize it's the character they're playing?

 

Or have sounds like a car rushing past, and a dog barking in the distance as you get near an exit, just to remind everyone there's a world they're locked away from?

 

I'd love to hear more ideas...

 

Don't be afraid to shoot down my bad ideas, or steal any good ones.

Edited May 16, 2007 by A Sprite

[Glenn Jupp]

Dungeons of Daggorath! Yes, thank you. I'll have to "research" that one.

 

Two joysticks? Hmm. Wouldn't be able to use the AtariVox then. Maybe just one joystick for moving, the fire button as a general action button or reach out if you're not holding anything. Use the select or reset buttons on the console to cycle through items that have been collected. Except that carries the risk of jostling the console/cartridge connection, and you're left with random vertical lines and screechy noises.

 

Speaking of AtariVox, they will be available again soon-ish, right?

 

Umm, just noticed A Sprite mentioned the 5200 originally. You're not too picky on that point, are you?

 

Ooh, I was wondering about having the Wumpus / Psycho Killer / Brain Eating Zombie track the player by senses other than sight. If it relies on sound also, then the more you move, the better it can track you? Or maybe it follows a scent trail?

[A Sprite]

You're not too picky on that point, are you?

 

I can't program a cable box, much less a video game. Really, I just hope I've given something back to the community to make up for all those freebies you guys throw at guests - if 2600 is where you see the game, go for it. One joystick solutions are fine, and perhaps inventory could be accessed by spinning the stick in a circle once or twice, since it's not a motion likely to be accidental?

 

 

If it relies on sound also, then the more you move, the better it can track you? Or maybe it follows a scent trail?

 

Sound yes, scent, I have reservations - half the fun would be you don't know whether it knows where you are, and a scent trail would lead to a linear chase, wouldn't it?

 

Perhaps it can notice if you've altered the environment?

Edited May 17, 2007 by A Sprite

[Glenn Jupp]

half the fun would be you don't know whether it knows where you are, and a scent trail would lead to a linear chase, wouldn't it?

 

I think it would depend on how it's done. Say each cell of the map grid (RAM hungry, I know) stores a scent value. A certain amount of scent is laid down in the players current cell. Each turn or step, the scent in each cell decays and/or propagates to the neighbouring cells. A player could choose to "lay a trail" off in one direction, hang about there, then double back. The Wumpus / Freddy Kruger / Kandarian Demon might follow the trail to the scent laden area, then get lost there for a while.

 

Maybe. Gotta work up some code to test out this idea.

 

Perhaps different monsters might each have a different sense to use? Or game difficulty would determine which sense the critter gets?

[A Sprite]

half the fun would be you don't know whether it knows where you are, and a scent trail would lead to a linear chase, wouldn't it?

 

I think it would depend on how it's done. Say each cell of the map grid (RAM hungry, I know) stores a scent value. A certain amount of scent is laid down in the players current cell. Each turn or step, the scent in each cell decays and/or propagates to the neighbouring cells. A player could choose to "lay a trail" off in one direction, hang about there, then double back. The Wumpus / Freddy Kruger / Kandarian Demon might follow the trail to the scent laden area, then get lost there for a while.

 

Maybe. Gotta work up some code to test out this idea.

 

Perhaps different monsters might each have a different sense to use? Or game difficulty would determine which sense the critter gets?

 

Species. Since we're freed of a visual display, and a hud, we have the chance to create a high suspension of disbelief. But not all players are created equal, so perhaps we could allow the players to choose their own difficulty unconsciously, by the goals they set for themselves. I.E. With a perfect run, missing no shots at all, and finding a few secrets, (such as enemies who kill each other for you?) you can kill every monster, and win a time for having done so?

 

Which leads to -

 

How are we approaching a basic win situation? My original design was for one enemy, one bullet, with the emphasis being the tension of not firing until you were sure, because one miss would kill you.

 

But that was because I thought I might be limited to whatever a novice could do with gamemaker.

 

As for scents in the cells, could the player mask their scent via environment manipulation/items, and create a new game play mechanic?

 

Wouldn't it be kinda awesome for the Atari 2600 to have a stealth game thrown in with the survival horror?

Edited May 17, 2007 by A Sprite

[A Sprite]

And now that I think about it, running without stopping would increase your scent, wouldn't it?

[Glenn Jupp]

As for scents in the cells, could the player mask their scent via environment manipulation/items, and create a new game play mechanic?

 

Turning on a fan or air conditioner or cracking open a window might create a breeze, making the scent travel downwind instead of spreading out evenly.

 

And now that I think about it, running without stopping would increase your scent, wouldn't it?

 

If the heart rate is high (from exertion or fear) it makes sense for the character to sweat more and lay down more scent. But if they're calm and staying still, that one map cell would build up a heavy scent. Dunno what tactics all this might lead to, but it'll be fun to find out.

 

How are we approaching a basic win situation?

 

Depends exactly what kind of game is made. Establish one or more goals, like escape or kill all the Wumpuses / Gremlins / Spawn of C'thulhu or some kind of noble-sacrifice-to-save-the-world-clichè-that-I've-seen-one-time-too-many. (Me? Rant? Naah.)

 

On the other hand, there is the great tradition of old games that just keep going on and on, getting faster and harder until game over. The win comes in bragging in the High Score Club.

 

Honestly, I expect I'll try an endless "pitch black wumpus hunt" first, as an experiment or warm up before the big event of a survival horror adventure with a definite ending.

[A Sprite]

Honestly, I expect I'll try an endless "pitch black wumpus hunt" first, as an experiment or warm up before the big event of a survival horror adventure with a definite ending

 

The question now becomes what sounds represent the creature? The environment?

Edited May 18, 2007 by A Sprite

[Glenn Jupp]

Sounds for a Wumpus Hunt:

 

The Wumpus - sure you could stick with growls and bellowing roars. But as described to me the Wumpus has big suction cup feet to keep it from falling down The Pit, so smacking, popping sucker sounds would fit (though they conjure up a mental association with Steve Martin in "Roxanne")

 

The Bat - high pitched squeeks and clicks, the rustling of a huge wing

 

The Pit - hmm. What does a hole in the ground sound like? Is there a breeze blowing over or out of it? Maybe water is dripping into it, with long faint echoes. Or maybe any noises made nearby get the echo treatment.

 

The Hero - footsteps, in at least two varieties for walking straight and turning in place. The twang-thwip of firing an arrow. Well, and bumping into a wall, falling down the Pit, getting carried off by the Bat, getting mauled by the Wumpus.

 

Totally open to further suggestions here.

 

Oh, I had a go at a quick and dirty scent tracking test. It's gonna take a load of fine tuning, but it looks promising.

Edited May 19, 2007 by Glenn Jupp

[Mord]

If the game is calling for essentially/primarily sound-only, designing it for the 7800 with the assumption of a pokey-enabled cartridge would probably be the better way to go. You end up with 6 sound channels (4 from pokey, 2 from the console) and still have the ability of using the atarivox on port 2 while using a 2-button controller in port 1.

 

Since it isn't planned to be graphically intensive, the Maria shouldn't cause too much problems with display list headaches and you'd have a larger rom size without worrying about bankswitching. Something to consider at least.

[Glenn Jupp]

You end up with 6 sound channels (4 from pokey, 2 from the console) and still have the ability of using the atarivox on port 2 while using a 2-button controller in port 1.

 

Nice. Makes me wish I had a 7800, and a version of batari Basic for the 7800.

 

Been mucking about with Eckhard Stolberg's "frame timed sound effects" program from the old Stella list. Things are going slower than I'd like, but stuff is happening. I'm wondering if/when I should start up a topic in the bBasic sub-forum, or maybe the new bug tracker.

[salstadt]

Soundvoyager on GBA was essentially a game without reliance on visuals and it worked pretty well. As for horror, Skeleton+ relied hugely on stereo audio, but I can't imagine a game working that well on an Atari system beyond that idea.

[A Sprite]

It's a matter of finding the right sounds. Glenn has the right idea to start it off small, as just rooms and a monster. Which reminds me -

 

Glenn, to avoid players getting lost, how's this for an idea? Have puddles on the floor. A splash effect the first time you go through. No splash if you're repeating yourself.

 

Also, Wikipedia turned out to be insanely helpful -

 

http://www.audiogames.net/

 

http://www.gameaccessibility.com/

 

Plus many more

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiogame

 

Who knew that so many people cared?

[Glenn Jupp]

I hadn't thought to research audio games. Some interesting stuff there.

 

Anyway, I don't think splashing about in puddles will be necessary. I'm just going with a 6x6 grid to move about on. Seeing as how the pit will stay in place, and the bat moves only if you move into its square, those should be landmarks enough. Many more reference points than that and you might lose any chance of getting just a little bit lost (part of the challenge in the game play, I think).

 

In fact, I've been wondering about ways to make the map grid a bit more funky. If you look at the original Wumpus programs, the caves get rather peculiar. You're moving about the vertices of a dodecahedron, or along a mobius strip, or stuck in a big loop of one-way caves. This was all because the programmer was sick to the teeth of boring cartesian grids.

 

Making the map grid toroidal is easy, and perhaps too simple. Funkier would be some kind of mobius torus (go off one edge in column/row X, reappear on the other side in column/row 6 - X). Or maybe the top edge connects to the left edge, and the bottom to the right. No random warping, though. That would just be annoying.

[A Sprite]

Awesome.

 

It kinda adds a puzzle element.

 

Question: How will dying be represented? Either the player, or the Wampus?

[Glenn Jupp]

How will dying be represented?

 

Atari-fied approximations of blood curdling screams and bellowing roars. A big thump of a dead wumpus hitting ground. Maybe add in a musical victory fanfare (or funeral march, as appropriate). You can hear for yourself "Real Soon Now."